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  1. #81
    Lieutenant Colonel Descent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Bra'tac was pretty great in this episode. Him taking down the priests by himself was the highlight of the episode for me.

    Also, Salli Richardson was a pretty good Drey'auc. Much better than whoever they got to be her in the later episodes.

    7/10 from me! Or...**1/2 out of ****. Yep.

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  2. #82
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    I am surprised people are so forgiving of Jackson for killing the gou'ld. Carter is pretty "by the book" and seems to show disgust for Jackson for a second but thats it. He probably never carried a machine gun before and seemed to have some kind of blood lust when he had the opportunity. Even after Carter speaks to him, he still does it. I realize that Shauri was recently taken, however he had a look on his face like he enjoyed it. Just seems to show lack of military training and experience that Carter seems to have. Overall, a very important scene in the series for me.
    I agree with you. This is a tremendously important character scene. It shows that while Daniel is idealistic, he can also be quite ruthless when he decides that something is the right thing to do (there's a reason that Absolute Power was both believable and scary. Daniel, corrupted by Goa'uld genetic memory, would be very scary indeed). And that look on his face was really something-an terrific bit of acting from Michael Shanks.

    We later find that he was completely correct. The Goa'uld are corrupted from birth by the genetic memory, but he didn't know that at this point.
    At the same time, he did know that all those larval Goa'uld would be used to create more Jaffa, and then to take hosts like his wife. My feeling has always been that it was both hatred and a legitimate concern for the results of leaving the Goa'uld alive, that made his decision.

    I actually have a harder time understanding Carter's attitude. She knows what the larval Goa'uld will be used for. She knows they are parasites. There is no benign Goa'uld, even without knowing about the genetic memory. Some have suggested that she is influenced by the need for stealth, but I don't buy that. All she mentions is that killing them when they are helpless is wrong.

    What is the alternative? There are only two. One, to kill it when it's in a Jaffa. Two, to kill it when it's in a host, again taking two lives. At this point they had no other options. I see Sam's thinking as extremely shortsighted.

    (Yippie! This post made me a Major!)

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    I agree with you. This is a tremendously important character scene. It shows that while Daniel is idealistic, he can also be quite ruthless when he decides that something is the right thing to do (there's a reason that Absolute Power was both believable and scary. Daniel, corrupted by Goa'uld genetic memory, would be very scary indeed). And that look on his face was really something-an terrific bit of acting from Michael Shanks.

    We later find that he was completely correct. The Goa'uld are corrupted from birth by the genetic memory, but he didn't know that at this point.
    At the same time, he did know that all those larval Goa'uld would be used to create more Jaffa, and then to take hosts like his wife. My feeling has always been that it was both hatred and a legitimate concern for the results of leaving the Goa'uld alive, that made his decision.
    I see Daniel's motivations in the scene a little differently, though I agree it is an important moment for the character. He has every reason to hate even larval Goa'uld, since two of them took his wife and brother-in-law as hosts. I don't think the idea of all Goa'uld being corrupt from birth even entered his mind, he was seeking revenge for Sha're and Skarra IMO, and took the opportunity to strike back at the Goa'uld.

    I actually have a harder time understanding Carter's attitude. She knows what the larval Goa'uld will be used for. She knows they are parasites. There is no benign Goa'uld, even without knowing about the genetic memory. Some have suggested that she is influenced by the need for stealth, but I don't buy that. All she mentions is that killing them when they are helpless is wrong.

    What is the alternative? There are only two. One, to kill it when it's in a Jaffa. Two, to kill it when it's in a host, again taking two lives. At this point they had no other options. I see Sam's thinking as extremely shortsighted.
    I do think the need for stealth was important though, since Daniel's actions likely alerted the Jaffa on Chulak to their presence, which led to them getting chased back to the gate and could have jeopardized Teal'c's mission. I saw Sam prioritizing the mission objectives in that scene, while Daniel, lacking the military discipline and very understandably influenced by his emotions, was not able to do the same.

    Also, since they have no idea of even the concept of Goa'uld genetic memory at this point, I can see Sam seeing the infant Goa'uld along similar lines as the children of an enemy force, probably not inherently evil or bad themselves, but in an environment where they'll most likely end up being bad.

    So I'd say in this instance it was Sam who was the idealistic one for believing that there could be non-evil Goa'uld, which did later turn out to be somewhat true with the discovery of the Tok'ra.

    (Yippie! This post made me a Major!)
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  4. #84
    Lieutenant Colonel Descent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    I see Sam's thinking as extremely shortsighted.
    Agreed. The whole "we would be no better than them!" argument made no sense at all. Daniel was totally right in what he did. I feel that her reluctance was really just there to add a bit more weight to that scene... ohhh well.

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  5. #85
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    I see Daniel's motivations in the scene a little differently, though I agree it is an important moment for the character. He has every reason to hate even larval Goa'uld, since two of them took his wife and brother-in-law as hosts. I don't think the idea of all Goa'uld being corrupt from birth even entered his mind, he was seeking revenge for Sha're and Skarra IMO, and took the opportunity to strike back at the Goa'uld.
    Oh, I agree! But I also think the was aware of the implications of leaving them alive, and had no intention of letting them take hosts. That doesn't negate the fact that he enjoyed it immensely.

    I do think the need for stealth was important though, since Daniel's actions likely alerted the Jaffa on Chulak to their presence, which led to them getting chased back to the gate and could have jeopardized Teal'c's mission. I saw Sam prioritizing the mission objectives in that scene, while Daniel, lacking the military discipline and very understandably influenced by his emotions, was not able to do the same.
    While that may have been the end result, I don't think that was actually a factor here, or Sam would have mentioned it at the same time she raised her other objection. The need for stealth might actually have swayed Daniel, where as mercy toward even an infant Goa'uld did not. The need for stealth was important, but I don't think it factored into this choice.

    Also, since they have no idea of even the concept of Goa'uld genetic memory at this point, I can see Sam seeing the infant Goa'uld along the same lines as the children of an enemy force, probably not inherently evil or bad themselves, but in an environment where they'll most likely end up being bad.
    I think this is exactly what she did, and I really think it was misguided, as it doesn't take into account their parasitic nature. There is nothing that can happen with those larval Goa'uld that isn't bad.

    So I'd say in this instance it was Sam who was the idealistic one for believing that there could be non-evil Goa'uld, which did later turn out to be somewhat true with the discovery of the Tok'ra.
    I agree, but not for the same reasons. (I wasn't saying that Daniel was being idealistic, here. I was saying that he is generally idealistic, but can also be ruthless, and this is an example of the ruthlessness coming out to play.) I don't see this as being very clear thinking on Sam's part. For one thing, I don't think she was thinking that good Goa'uld might be able to exist. All they knew was that they were evil parasites, and the notion of willing hosts, given what they knew, was a pretty big stretch. I think she just doesn't want to go the 'ends justify the means' route. This would, in fact, be pretty darn idealistic when dealing with parasites--a lot more idealistic than Daniel. The juxtaposition of the usual character roles is very interesting!

    And thank you for your congratulations!

    Agreed. The whole "we would be no better than them!" argument made no sense at all. Daniel was totally right in what he did. I feel that her reluctance was really just there to add a bit more weight to that scene... ohhh well.
    Not really. Her objections were very important as they made clear exactly what Daniel was doing, and how different his actions were than some of his others. It showed a clear delineation in his ideas about 'worth saving' and 'not worth saving', and the fact that he has no problem killing when he thinks it's a good idea. (We see this again when he is going to shoot the 'child' Adria, although that probably would have bothered him more if he had been able to do it. She looked like a child, even if she wasn't.) It created a much more complex picture of the character, and made him rather different than how he had been seen before. Without Sam's objections, we would have just thought 'Oh yeah, Goa'uld are bad, no big deal' and the scene would have lost most of it's meaning.
    Last edited by amconway; February 26th, 2009 at 07:30 PM.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    While that may have been the end result, I don't think that was actually a factor here, or Sam would have mentioned it at the same time she raised her other objection. The need for stealth might actually have swayed Daniel, where as mercy toward even an infant Goa'uld did not. The need for stealth was important, but I don't think it factored into this choice.
    I feel the characters' actions can be as significant a factor as what they do or not say. By just following the Jaffa to the temple, Sam was risking breaking cover, so I kinda see her desire to not fire her gun to be a sort of damage control for not following Jack's orders to stay by the gate.

    And I think even if she didn't say it, Sam was thinking from military standpoint, which would be concerned with stealth on an undercover mission. Even if she'd wanted to kill the Goa'uld, she'd know gunfire would draw attention, and taking a knife to each one would take a while and they needed to get back to the gate to support Jack and Teal'c.

    And I personally do not think any argument would have persuaded Daniel to not kill the Goa'uld, I think his mind was set on revenge and he relished the chance to have even a little bit of it.

    I think this is exactly what she did, and I really think it was misguided, as it doesn't take into account their parasitic nature. There is nothing that can happen with those larval Goa'uld that isn't bad.
    But I think that presumes that parasites are inherently bad, and scientifically speaking they aren't always so.

    And I would liken it to a team going undercover into an enemy's camp where they perhaps see young children being trained to become fighters. More than likely these children will become their enemy, and killing them now would probably save the lives of innocents they may kill in the future, but you would be killing beings who haven't yet committed those acts.

    I agree, but not for the same reasons. (I wasn't saying that Daniel was being idealistic, here. I was saying that he is generally idealistic, but can also be ruthless, and this is an example of the ruthlessness coming out to play.) I don't see this as being very clear thinking on Sam's part. For one thing, I don't think she was thinking that good Goa'uld might be able to exist. All they knew was that they were evil parasites, and the notion of willing hosts, given what they knew, was a pretty big stretch. I think she just doesn't want to go the 'ends justify the means' route. This would, in fact, be pretty darn idealistic when dealing with parasites--a lot more idealistic than Daniel. The juxtaposition of the usual character roles is very interesting!
    Oh I agree that Daniel was by no means being idealistic here. I personally saw him as a man caught up in his emotions at that moment, and using the Goa'uld larva as an outlet for his anger and frustrations.

    But I do think Sam was a bit idealistic by essentially saying that to her the ends do not justify the means, which is a line of thinking I personally found to be more clear-sighted than Daniel's, even though I understood his motivations.

    The juxtaposition for roles is quite interesting, and to me helped establish both Daniel and Sam as more complex and rounded and not stereotypical characters.

  7. #87
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Thanks for the wonderful conversation! It's especially interesting, because while we while we see events in a fairly similar manner, our conclusions are very different, almost opposite, and I think would stay that way, no matter how many arguments we present- not unlike the characters, themselves. I suppose that's why this episode continues to be so good, and generate so much discussion!

    Darn! I still can't green you! And I have been spreading it around!

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    Thanks for the wonderful conversation! It's especially interesting, because while we while we see events in a fairly similar manner, our conclusions are very different, almost opposite, and I think would stay that way, no matter how many arguments we present- not unlike the characters, themselves. I suppose that's why this episode continues to be so good, and generate so much discussion!

    Darn! I still can't green you! And I have been spreading it around!
    Thank you as well! Conversations like these are why I finally signed up with GW after a few months of lurking.

    The fridge is locked for me too at the moment, so consider this an IOU green.

  9. #89
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    The fridge is locked for me too at the moment, so consider this an IOU green.
    Indeed!

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    Without Sam's objections, we would have just thought 'Oh yeah, Goa'uld are bad, no big deal' and the scene would have lost most of it's meaning.
    Hmm... yes, good point! I was just agreeing with you in saying that her objections were short-sighted and I didn't buy it. But! Evenstar had a great point in saying that, to Sam, they were undercover and she did not want to draw any attention. Daniel was very much driven by his emotions and wanted his chance at revenge.

    Great stuff, you two.

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  11. #91
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Hmm... yes, good point! I was just agreeing with you in saying that her objections were short-sighted and I didn't buy it. But! Evenstar had a great point in saying that, to Sam, they were undercover and she did not want to draw any attention. Daniel was very much driven by his emotions and wanted his chance at revenge.

    Great stuff, you two.
    Thank to you for starting the ball rolling!
    The reason the I don't share the belief that Sam was concerned with the need for secrecy isn't that I don't think it's a logical assumption, or that not being sneaky had bad results, it's that I don't recall there being any evidence to support that Sam was influenced by that in wishing to stop Daniel. She makes no mention of it, even in passing. Or have I forgotten something?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    Thank to you for starting the ball rolling!
    The reason the I don't share the belief that Sam was concerned with the need for secrecy isn't that I don't think it's a logical assumption, or that not being sneaky had bad results, it's that I don't recall there being any evidence to support that Sam was influenced by that in wishing to stop Daniel. She makes no mention of it, even in passing. Or have I forgotten something?
    I don't think she ever said it explicitly, but it's something that I kind of inferred based on her actions, training, and what happened after they left the temple. And since Carter is a military officer, I do assume that she'll be concerned with being covert on a stealth mission even if she never says it; same with O'Neill, it's part of their training.

    Carter and Daniel were suppose to guard the gate and wait for O'Neill, but then they saw the procession to the temple and she decided to follow it out of curiosity, essentially not following Jack's orders. For Sam, I saw the scientist overriding the soldier at that point.

    After they got what they came for at the temple, Carter starts to immediately leave, while Daniel is still fixated by the larva, to me thinking about Sha're and Skarra. For Sam, she's completed a bonus mission objective, but knows she'd better get back to the gate or she won't be able to support Jack and Teal'c, her primary objective. I saw the soldier start to reassert itself over the scientist at that point.

    They leave the temple and are soon attacked by a Jaffa patrol, that Sam is able to temporarily fend off, but now they're really high-tailing back to the Gate. This also rushes the events with Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Ry'ac, and could have easily led to their capture had more Jaffa been guarding the gate.

  13. #93
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    I don't think she ever said it explicitly, but it's something that I kind of inferred based on her actions, training, and what happened after they left the temple. And since Carter is a military officer, I do assume that she'll be concerned with being covert on a stealth mission even if she never says it; same with O'Neill, it's part of their training.

    Carter and Daniel were suppose to guard the gate and wait for O'Neill, but then they saw the procession to the temple and she decided to follow it out of curiosity, essentially not following Jack's orders. For Sam, I saw the scientist overriding the soldier at that point.

    After they got what they came for at the temple, Carter starts to immediately leave, while Daniel is still fixated by the larva, to me thinking about Sha're and Skarra. For Sam, she's completed a bonus mission objective, but knows she'd better get back to the gate or she won't be able to support Jack and Teal'c, her primary objective. I saw the soldier start to reassert itself over the scientist at that point.

    They leave the temple and are soon attacked by a Jaffa patrol, that Sam is able to temporarily fend off, but now they're really high-tailing back to the Gate. This also rushes the events with Teal'c, Bra'tac, and Ry'ac, and could have easily led to their capture had more Jaffa been guarding the gate.
    This boils down to a difference in analytical method. I don't feel like I can assume things that aren't shown, verbally or non-verbally, by the actors. In this case, you make a very logical assumption, but the next person to join the argument, say, Joe-Bob Mallrat, might use the same method to infer that Sam doesn't want him to do it because she wants to take one home as a pet-we know she likes animals... We would have no way to counter that argument, because we would have already accepted your infinately more logical hypothesis. We need to have proof within the episode, or we are left in an uncomfortable position.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    This boils down to a difference in analytical method. I don't feel like I can assume things that aren't shown, verbally or non-verbally, by the actors. In this case, you make a very logical assumption, but the next person to join the argument, say, Joe-Bob Mallrat, might use the same method to infer that Sam doesn't want him to do it because she wants to take one home as a pet-we know she likes animals... We would have no way to counter that argument, because we would have already accepted your infinately more logical hypothesis. We need to have proof within the episode, or we are left in an uncomfortable position.
    I agree is does come down to assumptions to a degree, but since we can't be shown everything on screen, I think certain assumptions have to be made based on what we know about the characters and their situation.

    It's rather like whenever I watch an episode, I go in with the assumption that all of these characters care about each other. In Secrets after Apophis leaves with Sha're, both Jack and Teal'c are shown verbally trying to comfort Daniel, while Sam is shown dialing the gate and then leaving.

    Based purely on what's shown on the screen, it may seem like Sam does not care about Daniel's pain at losing Sha're again, but I feel I can reasonably assume that, based on what I've been shown before concerning the two characters, Sam does sympathize with and care about Daniel even though it's not explicitly shown on the screen.

    In this episode, I feel an unvoiced concern for stealth is a reasonable assumption based on the fact that Carter is a military officer in a military situation.

  15. #95
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    I agree is does come down to assumptions to a degree, but since we can't be shown everything on screen, I think certain assumptions have to be made based on what we know about the characters and their situation.

    It's rather like whenever I watch an episode, I go in with the assumption that all of these characters care about each other. In Secrets after Apophis leaves with Sha're, both Jack and Teal'c are shown verbally trying to comfort Daniel, while Sam is shown dialing the gate and then leaving.

    Based purely on what's shown on the screen, it may seem like Sam does not care about Daniel's pain at losing Sha're again, but I feel I can reasonably assume that, based on what I've been shown before concerning the two characters, Sam does sympathize with and care about Daniel even though it's not explicitly shown on the screen.

    In this episode, I feel an unvoiced concern for stealth is a reasonable assumption based on the fact that Carter is a military officer in a military situation.
    I agree that it's reasonable, but I think it's too much of a leap to assume it here, in that we aren't shown anything to coroborate it. The assumption is based entirely on her being a military officer unlike the assumption that Sam cares for Daniel which we have seen explicitly demontrated in virtually every episode. It's much less specific. And we have seen Sam make some decisions that are rather dubious in a military light (ignoring orders and staying with Cassandra, without even radioing O'Neill to tell him that she'd figured out they wouldn't die, even though there was a radio in the same room)

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    I agree that it's reasonable, but I think it's too much of a leap to assume it here, in that we aren't shown anything to coroborate it. The assumption is based entirely on her being a military officer unlike the assumption that Sam cares for Daniel which we have seen explicitly demontrated in virtually every episode. It's much less specific. And we have seen Sam make some decisions that are rather dubious in a military light (ignoring orders and staying with Cassandra, without even radioing O'Neill to tell him that she'd figured out they wouldn't die, even though there was a radio in the same room)
    But I would say that Carter has been portrayed as a pretty by-the-books military officer for the most part, so I personally feel comfortable assuming that unless there are mitigating factors, she's going to follow military protocol.

    It's kinda like in Torment of Tantalus, it initially struck me a quite odd that Daniel wanted to stay behind on the planet, considering his previously shown devotion to finding Sha're. But on reflection, I saw it as the archaeologist/explorer part of Daniel temporarily overwhelming his emotions for his wife, and when given a moment to rethink his decision, he clears his head and leaves. There wasn't anything explicit in the episode about Sha're, but I felt comfortable assuming that Daniel still loved his wife despite being distracted by the database.

    In this episode, I saw the scientifically curious part of Sam overwhelming the military part, then once her objective was complete she cleared her head and her all her actions after the temple were entirely in line with her military training. Same with Singularity, where her emotions as a woman temporarily overwhelmed her military discipline, or when in her excitement to test her and Daniel's theory in Cold Lazarus she forgot to ask permission for Teal'c to use his staff.

  17. #97
    Lieutenant Colonel amconway's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    But I would say that Carter has been portrayed as a pretty by-the-books military officer for the most part, so I personally feel comfortable assuming that unless there are mitigating factors, she's going to follow military protocol.

    It's kinda like in Torment of Tantalus, it initially struck me a quite odd that Daniel wanted to stay behind on the planet, considering his previously shown devotion to finding Sha're. But on reflection, I saw it as the archaeologist/explorer part of Daniel temporarily overwhelming his emotions for his wife, and when given a moment to rethink his decision, he clears his head and leaves. There wasn't anything explicit in the episode about Sha're, but I felt comfortable assuming that Daniel still loved his wife despite being distracted by the database.

    In this episode, I saw the scientifically curious part of Sam overwhelming the military part, then once her objective was complete she cleared her head and her all her actions after the temple were entirely in line with her military training. Same with Singularity, where her emotions as a woman temporarily overwhelmed her military discipline, or when in her excitement to test her and Daniel's theory in Cold Lazarus she forgot to ask permission for Teal'c to use his staff.
    You raise some very good points there, but isn't it equally plausible then that her concern that Daniel is about to make a moral error in judgement also overwhelms her military training, that her morals take precedence here? Not only because she believes it to be wrong, but because she doesn't want Daniel to go down that road?

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    You raise some very good points there, but isn't it equally plausible then that her concern that Daniel is about to make a moral error in judgement also overwhelms her military training, that her morals take precedence here? Not only because she believes it to be wrong, but because she doesn't want Daniel to go down that road?
    Yeah, I'd say that's equally plausible. When I watched the episode I was more focused on Teal'c's storyline and the action after the temple, so familial and military concerns were on my mind far more than moral ones, but you make a good point.

    I guess my main issue was the description of Sam's actions as short-sighted and wrong while Daniel was clear-sighted and right. I don't see either characters' actions as wholly right or wrong, just that each has different motivations for their actions. I happen to agree with Sam's perspective more, whether what I inferred militarily or was stated morally, but I also understand Daniel's motivations.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Bloodlines (111)

    I guess my main issue was the description of Sam's actions as short-sighted and wrong while Daniel was clear-sighted and right. I don't see either characters' actions as wholly right or wrong, just that each has different motivations for their actions. I happen to agree with Sam's perspective more, whether what I inferred militarily or was stated morally, but I also understand Daniel's motivations.
    Heh, whereas I feel certain that Daniel was correct. Those Goa'uld needed to be deadified.
    This truly is one of the most interesting episodes in that the character's actions can be seen in so many ways, all with equal plausibility!

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    Quote Originally Posted by amconway View Post
    Heh, whereas I feel certain that Daniel was correct. Those Goa'uld needed to be deadified.
    This truly is one of the most interesting episodes in that the character's actions can be seen in so many ways, all with equal plausibility!
    My main problem with the thought that those Goa'uld larva needed to be killed is that while they obviously have the potential to do evil, at this point in their lives they literally haven't done anything good or evil, they just exist. The preemptive judgment that they must die personally makes me quite uncomfortable. I feel it's akin to saying all Jaffa should be killed because of their potential to do evil, but that denies the possibility of Jaffa or even some symbiotes (like the Tok'ra) doing good, which we've seen happen several times in the series.

    I also find it interesting that while the symbiotes can become hosts and kill, in their immature state they can also save lives, and one did indeed save Teal'c.

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