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  1. #41
    Colonel Pitry's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Damn beautiful episode. Loved it to bits.

    I can forgive the Time Lords staying dead because of the revelation of what really happened during the Time War. That one was kept pretty nicely under wraps. and is Timothy Dalton now officially the Rassilon of Rassilon?
    The Master sacrificing himself for a double revenge/saving the Doctor's life was beautiful.
    The whole conversation on board the Vin Vochi ship between the Doctor and Wilf was made of sheer awesomeness - esp. the bit when the Doctor finally did take the gun. That's when I started crying like a baby and it didn;t stop til the end of the episode, haha.
    The Doctor's "reward" was completely and utterly sweet.
    I like it that we didn't get a confirmation of who the woman in white actually was!
    I even enjoyed Matt Smith's scene, gasp! "what was I doing - oh, yes, crashing!" haha.

    minor complaint - RTD, you made the Doctor kiss every female companion available, would it really hurt you to make my miserable slasher soul one kiss between Ten and Jack? Bah!

    major complaint - Martha and Mickey. No, just no. Feels way too much like either "we wanted to revisit every companion but had no idea what to do with either, so let's throw them in together" or b)getting rid of them. Or both. It just feels so disrespectful, especially for Martha. I wouldn't have minded if there was some sort of a plot build up for it, if it didn't feel so contrived. I did love her hair though!
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  2. #42
    Colonel Admiral Mappalazarou's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Smegger56 View Post

    Btw, Mr Smith being like Tennent at the end of the ep, makes sense. He's just regenerated and so may have some residual traits before his new personality comes through. Maybe.
    I thought that. It's like DT used some of Eccleston's lines in Christmas Invasion; 'And it is going to be...Fantastic!'
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  3. #43
    Major General Reefgirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Smegger56 View Post
    Btw, Mr Smith being like Tennent at the end of the ep, makes sense. He's just regenerated and so may have some residual traits before his new personality comes through. Maybe.
    That's true, Dr 10 had some of Dr 9's trait's at the end of his regenerations

  4. #44
    Molly Hooper Sealurk's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    So, previous Doctors have accepted, even welcomed regeneration, given the circumstances. Not Ten. Could that be why it was so violent? Because it was a slow death, was he actively fighting against it, holding on to see everyone who mattered to him first, but with the regen energy building up inside him almost like it's under pressure?

    Arrogance is nothing new for the Doctor. There's been a streak of it through his entire life, some Doctors just exemplify it more than others (Six, Three, One even...and Ten seems to have just about topped the list since Waters of Mars).

    As with all other major episodes, I'll have to watch it again to cement my opinion. I think there was a lot to like about EoT2, but also a lot to grumble about. All that build up, and Gallifrey returns for, what, ten minutes? I really hope it isn't as cut and dry as that - maybe a few Time Lords jumped ship in TARDISes as soon as it reappeared?

    FOB: Agreed, Journey's End would have been the perfect time for a regeneration. I think there was just too much going on in that story to fit in an entire new Doctor though, and Moffat presumably needs a lot of time to get his Who up and running.
    And now it's time for one last bow, like all your other selves. Eleven's hour is over now... the clock is striking Twelve's.

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  5. #45
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitry View Post
    I can forgive the Time Lords staying dead because of the revelation of what really happened during the Time War.
    Killing off all Timelords is one thing, but..

    The Doctor and Master escaped. We know how the Doctor did it, we don't know about the Master. Either way, I don't see why we can't have a few other rouge timelords out there somewhere, either with their memories stored in a watch, or just out and around in the galaxy.

    The Face of Bo said that the Doctor isn't the last of his kind. I don't know why, but I ain't willing to accept that Bo was on about ONLY the Master. The number of times the Doctor has said "no others survived, I'd know".. Uhm, yeah, cause he knew about the Master, and he knew about all the Daleks that keep popping up, even though they're suppose to be locked away in time too..

    He obviously isn't all knowing. I think it would be nice to see a few more surviving timelords. They can't all be evil, even many of those he killed (for better or for worse) I doubt all were corrupt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitry View Post
    I like it that we didn't get a confirmation of who the woman in white actually was!
    Even though we'll never know. My money is on his mother.

    It's Probin' Time!

  6. #46
    He Who Burns At The Center Of Time The_Carpenter's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Complete and utter tosh! The End of Time made no sense...

    : Book of Saxon.... WTF?
    : Potions of life and the reverse of.... WTF?
    : How was the Doctor the Master's saviour?
    : Why bring back Donna and have her remember.... and then do bugger all with it?
    : So the whole point of Wilf was to force the death of Ten, seriously he did nothing else... ohhh yeah he had visions from some random Time Lady.... which helped how?
    : Who was random Time Lady? RTD thought she was important to the point that saying that the outfit she was wearing in part one was important.. really? I don't see how!
    : What the hell happened to the Master at the end? did he burn up his energy at the end? or what?
    : Martha and Micky..... WTF... Martha can do so much better.

    So yeah hated it... roll on Steven Moffat!

    edit: ohh yeah and why bother bringing the Timelords back for a 5 minute confrontation with the Doctor just to shove back to whence they came.
    Last edited by The_Carpenter; January 1st, 2010 at 01:33 PM.
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  7. #47
    Colonel Pitry's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Aerilon View Post
    Killing off all Timelords is one thing, but..

    The Doctor and Master escaped. We know how the Doctor did it, we don't know about the Master. Either way, I don't see why we can't have a few other rouge timelords out there somewhere, either with their memories stored in a watch, or just out and around in the galaxy.
    Although, how many godlike creatures can you have running around the universe?
    What I meant was, before this aired, I really wanted the Time Lords to stay alive cos I think that would have given a new dimension to the Doctor's story - we've seen him taking them for granted and disliking them and their stuffy behaviour, we've seen him guilt-ridden and nostalgic about them, but we haven't seen - and prolly not see for a long long time - him having to deal with what he's done while they're actually back. Which is something I really want to see.
    But, as I said, I'm willing to forgive them that for the revelation that destroying Gallifrey wasn't done in order to destroy the Daleks, it was done in order to destroy the Time Lords
    Even though we'll never know. My money is on his mother.
    Ah, mine's on his daughter (Susan's mother) actually
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    I'm waiting for the Asgard to make an appearance.

  9. #49
    Lieutenant General Pharaoh Atem's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by PMN1 View Post
    I'm waiting for the Asgard to make an appearance.
    the master ate them already

  10. #50
    Major General Reefgirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    My money is on that woman being Romana

  11. #51
    Colonel Pitry's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Reefgirl View Post
    My money is on that woman being Romana
    That's quite the joy of it, sn't it? we don't know!
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  12. #52
    Lieutenant Colonel Matt G's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    1. Were the earlier incarnations of the Doctor always hoping to redeem the Master - it makes sense given what I know the character's history and I liked it.

    2. Time Lords - yes RTD has been watching too much Gate.

    3. Again though I liked the Doctor and Master being on the same side for once, even if only briefly - what will happen to the Master now though?

    4. The revisits....Martha and Mickey...an eyebrow raiser...Captain Jack...fine...Sarah Jane's kid...I needed my niece's help in recognising him as I don't watch SJA...Rose in NYD '05. Was there snow in London that year?

    5. First impressions of Smith-Doctor? Have no issues but you can't judge a character on 30 secs of monologue.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Bennett View Post
    [SPOILERS]
    For a start I think Wilf was handled terribly. He was set up to be an old soldier who was yet to fight his key battle, and then what was his role? To get trapped in a bloody cubicle and lead to the Doctor's death. And even the Doctor started slagging him off for that. Wilf should have played a major role in this, not get shafted as he did.[/spoiler]
    Your expectation-o-meter however probably kept raising the bar to unobjective levels. Most complaints I see about the modern series is that it doesnt give you quite what YOU want.

    Spoiler:
    Wilf helped The Doctor fend off The Master's missles and tested The Doctor's morality. What, you think that he was going to let him sit in there to die?

    The Doctor vents exactly what you do in that scene...that the whole prophecy isnt "fair" and not what he thought it would be..but that is what Doctor Who is about.


    Spoiler:
    Furthermore, what the bloody hell was with the Doctor visiting his most recent friends and seeing them alright? He's NEVER needed to do that before.
    Spoiler:
    He thought the radiation would kill him before he regenerated or kill him during it. He said in the FIRST INSTALMENT that time lords can be killed before they can change, and "Planet of the Spiders" proves this.

    Pay attention to the whole story, it might help you.


    Furthermore, I think they cheaped the idea of regeneration by suggesting that the next doctor is not as much of the Doctor as the current Doctor is.
    They didnt suggest any of that. Seems to me you're making stuff up.

    I'm also not happy at all with the introduction of Matt Smith, he was written too similarly to DT in this scene, which I think damaged the moment considerably.
    Davies wrote his lines. How you can take that scene and immediatly judge him I don't know, but it's a sign of your typical ignorance.

    It didnt damage anything for me. A new Doctor, new adventures, I'm enjoying it.

    Spoiler:
    Oh and RTD has obviously been watching Stargate - Now the Timelords want to ASCEND! Dear me. I somehow doubt 'the others' would be happy with that.
    Spoiler:
    The themes of insane Gods and Ascension existed long before Stargate

    Davies also despises Stargate


    Spoiler:
    Btw - was it just me, or did the Doctor call the Lord President 'Rassilon'?
    Yes, he did. I had to watch it a second time (based on the line he said about the two Time Lords that disagreed with him()

  14. #54
    Colonel Admiral Mappalazarou's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Thing is Rassilon was the creator of their way of life, right? Dalton's character may simply be named after the original. That makes sense to me.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    I think we have to assume he's Rassilon. Time and space don't mean much in a time war, they would have recruited him to lead the charge.

    As for the Woman, I'm sure she's The Doctor's mother, not Romana, but Davies leaving that unanswered was great, as it leaves lingering mysteries as to The Doctor's origins

    edit: ohh yeah and why bother bringing the Timelords back for a 5 minute confrontation with the Doctor just to shove back to whence they came.
    To show why they CAN'T come back.

  16. #56
    Major General Draygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Mappalazarou View Post
    Thing is Rassilon was the creator of their way of life, right? Dalton's character may simply be named after the original. That makes sense to me.
    I actually thought they might have resurrected Rassilon to help lead them in their time of war. He did create the War Games after all and wasn't exactly the nicest Timelord on Gallifrey. He also had rather a twisted sense of humour as he shoed in The Five Doctors. To win is to lose, and he looses wins....
    If found, is probably lost on the way to Azaroth or the Pegasus Galaxy

  17. #57
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    Zarius,

    You sir, are disgustingly rude.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post
    Your expectation-o-meter however probably kept raising the bar to unobjective levels. Most complaints I see about the modern series is that it doesnt give you quite what YOU want.

    Spoiler:
    Wilf helped The Doctor fend off The Master's missles and tested The Doctor's morality. What, you think that he was going to let him sit in there to die?

    The Doctor vents exactly what you do in that scene...that the whole prophecy isnt "fair" and not what he thought it would be..but that is what Doctor Who is about.
    I generally very much enjoy 'New Who' and when I complain about an episode, I do so for the same reason I complain about any other episode. Maybe my expectations were to high, or maybe they were just different. Either way, I didn't enjoy this episode any where near as much as I should do. Are you suggesting I am at fault for that?

    In my opinion, Wilf had been built up through his experiences with the anonymous woman and the chat with the Doctor in the cafe, to be gearing towards him physically doing something important, not just be the person the Doctor dies saving. That was how I interpreted it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post

    Spoiler:
    He thought the radiation would kill him before he regenerated or kill him during it. He said in the FIRST INSTALMENT that time lords can be killed before they can change, and "Planet of the Spiders" proves this.



    Pay attention to the whole story, it might help you.

    Again - you are incredibly rude. Yes I am aware that he thought the radiation would kill him, I am however referring to his attitude when he KNEW that he was going to regenerate. I did pay attention to the whole story, so BACK THE HELL OF SIR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post

    They didnt suggest any of that. Seems to me you're making stuff up.
    I perhaps didn't make myself as clear as I could do. But if YOU had paid attention in the previous episode, it is suggested by the Doctor that regeneration IS like dying, because the person that walks away, might have his memories, but it isn't HIM. This flies imo, in the fact of what's already been established, even within New Who. It's the same damn guy, not someone different who just has his memories and his name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post

    Davies wrote his lines. How you can take that scene and immediatly judge him I don't know, but it's a sign of your typical ignorance.

    It didnt damage anything for me. A new Doctor, new adventures, I'm enjoying it.
    I WASN'T judging. If you READ my post properly sir, you would realise that actually I was saying that I wasn't impressed by the scene. I am looking forward to Doc 11, because I BELIEVE what I've read that he will be a different enough Doctor to be interesting. However, THIS scene didn't convey that, and I was dissapointed by this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post

    Spoiler:
    The themes of insane Gods and Ascension existed long before Stargate

    Davies also despises Stargate
    Yes. Fine. Of course. But you CANNOT deny the similarities, even through phraseology. Did I claim 'rip off!' ? No I did not. But it was very much a Stargate-esque moment. I didn't say that was a bad thing mind you.


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  18. #58
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    I was disappointed. Sure, I was entertained, but it just seems like RTD's big epic episodes consist of a few major plot points hastily tied together with 'science'. In fact, a little research and I came across his early notes on writing this episode...
    Russycake's list of Dr Who End of Time awesome bits:
    1. More The Master- but Lightning Shooty!
    2. Wilf. People like Wilf.
    3. Everyone else.
    4. Like, six million billion trillion more The Masters.
    5. Making Timelords evil and bringing them back but then not.
    6. REGENERATION.
    7. Laser Spaceship!
    8. DALEKS VS CYBERMEN!!!.... oh wait, I already done that. oops.

    So The Master comes back, and then is all Lightning Shooty, then some guys capture him and give him a machine to make like a million billion trillion The Masters. Oh, and Wilf is there, and Donna is around. And then the Timelords are coming back cos of science and four beeps but now they're evil so the Doctor sends them away again after flying the LASER SPACESHIP and jumping into the building. Then someones gonna die so he sacrifices himself, but only after he says goodbye to Everyone Else (like, Martha and Mickey and Donna and Sarah Jane and that kid from that show she has and Rose and Jack... Also the Cybermen turn up but the Daleks also show up and they fight! Then REGENERATION but an epic explodey one. The End.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    There's a difference between a civil debate and sniping back and forth. Please keep to discussing the show and keep the personal comments out of it. Remember that opinions are just that OPINIONS and thus not right nor wrong. You can challenge an opinion and discuss it but flat out telling someone their wrong isn't exactly conducive to discussion. Remember, we all see things differently based upon our own perspectives.

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  20. #60
    Chief Master Sergeant Smegger56's Avatar
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    Default Re: End of Time Part Two

    The doctor is the doctor, no matter what. But it can also be perceived as a different person. Thats what makes doctor who such a great character. I can understand what he says. Unlike previous Doctors, as far as i'm aware, they didn't know that they would have to regenerate. No 10 does. He's had all this time tho think about it. Each personality of the doctor is ever so different. For me, his reaction makes sense considering he knew it was going to happen.
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    Rimmer: 'Because the king of the potato people wont let me. I begged him. I got down on my knees and wept. He wants to keep you here, keep you here for 10 years'
    Cat: 'Can we see him?'
    Rimmer: 'See who?'
    Cat: 'The king.'
    Rimmer: 'Do you have a magic carpet?'
    Lister: 'Yeah...a little 3 seater'
    Rimmer: 'So let me get this straight, you want to fly on a magic carpet to see the king of the potato people, and plead with him for your freedom. And your telling me your completely sane?'

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