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  1. #62441
    Lieutenant Colonel SaraBahama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    This picture:



    (set sometime after the end of the series, at some Homeworld Security formal function...let your imagination take it from there...)

    sig by Ikorni

    "When Colonel Maybourne and yourself were stranded off world, Major Carter felt a similar sense of frustration. She despaired at the thought of never seeing you again." ~Teal'c
    "I didn't leave…because I'd have rather died myself…than lose Carter." ~Jack O'Neill


    SaraBahama FanFic; AO3

  2. #62442

    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Maybe it's just me but post S8 very little made sense to me in terms of these 2 characters career path. Jack who is an action man (but loves the quiet downtime in his home or cabin) that hates politics and politicians would never take a desk job in THE land of politicians known as Washington D.C.. I just don't ever see that happening. He would rather retire and become a civilian consultant or something. Sam's biggest asset was her brain yet they had her chose a military career path instead of a scientific one post S8. Leader of Atlantis or commander of the Hammond is so freaking pointless. More importantly, I can't see the Pentagon/Homeworld Security allowing that to happen. They need her smarts more than her military prowess. How many times were we hit over the head with her brain being a natural resource/treasure? Her heading up Area 51 made perfect sense to me. Tinkering with alien devices, reverse engineering technology or going to help out with major scientific problems on another planet or Atlantis or whatever. That's what she is all about.

    I can't see a single Watsonian reason for these choices because it's completely OOC for me. Instead it seemed to be done for entirely Doylist reasons. Such as them wanting to keep the characters apart (preferably galaxies apart) to continue the stupidity of ambiguity. And to keep them on the shows (one permanently the other with guest appearances) they took the laziest way out in terms of writing by choosing paths for them that make no sense in-universe.

  3. #62443
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    I've been thikning something for some time.In the "In the Line of duty" is there one moment which one I am not sure if I am not seeing something what is not there. I am talking about moment when Jack found Sam after Ashrak attacked her and she is transporting to the infarmary. Jack stands next to Teal´c and it seems to me that Jack is wiping a tear. It´s only me or is that so. Thanx

  4. #62444

    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by DAC View Post
    I've been thikning something for some time.In the "In the Line of duty" is there one moment which one I am not sure if I am not seeing something what is not there. I am talking about moment when Jack found Sam after Ashrak attacked her and she is transporting to the infarmary. Jack stands next to Teal´c and it seems to me that Jack is wiping a tear. It´s only me or is that so. Thanx
    I've seen people mention this before but I didn't see tears. It was IMO just a weird directorial choice. Sam is on the gurney and they cut to Jack wiping under his eye. But since there are no tears that I can see, it's just a strange choice from the director I guess. Maybe RDA got something in his eye but they didn't want to do another take because of time constraints.

  5. #62445
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    I see.

  6. #62446
    General hedwig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    I found the scene where you think Jack might be wiping a tear from his eye, but can't figure out how to upload it. In that scene, he is kind of wiping his nose, which I suppose a person could also do if they have a tear in their eye. If you look in the gallery here on GW, go to that episode and skip to File 341 and you will see that picture. You can decide for yourselves what Jack might be doing.

    http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis....php?pid=16603

  7. #62447
    Lieutenant Colonel SaraBahama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by gate101 View Post
    Maybe it's just me but post S8 very little made sense to me in terms of these 2 characters career path. Jack who is an action man (but loves the quiet downtime in his home or cabin) that hates politics and politicians would never take a desk job in THE land of politicians known as Washington D.C.. I just don't ever see that happening. He would rather retire and become a civilian consultant or something. Sam's biggest asset was her brain yet they had her chose a military career path instead of a scientific one post S8. Leader of Atlantis or commander of the Hammond is so freaking pointless. More importantly, I can't see the Pentagon/Homeworld Security allowing that to happen. They need her smarts more than her military prowess. How many times were we hit over the head with her brain being a natural resource/treasure? Her heading up Area 51 made perfect sense to me. Tinkering with alien devices, reverse engineering technology or going to help out with major scientific problems on another planet or Atlantis or whatever. That's what she is all about.

    I can't see a single Watsonian reason for these choices because it's completely OOC for me. Instead it seemed to be done for entirely Doylist reasons. Such as them wanting to keep the characters apart (preferably galaxies apart) to continue the stupidity of ambiguity. And to keep them on the shows (one permanently the other with guest appearances) they took the laziest way out in terms of writing by choosing paths for them that make no sense in-universe.
    I can't speak for the writers, but as a shipper, the choice solves a plot problem (with the first change --Jack to Homeworld and Sam to Area 51): the fraternization regulations.

    Jack's too committed to the protection of Earth to simply retire. He's one of the few in senior rank with experience on that front. Think about the bone-headed things the IOA and other oversight committees wanted to do (bury the Stargate, steal technology from allies, etc). He doesn't believe the less experienced leaders will make the best choices...simply because they wouldn't know what they're dealing with (IMHO).
    **my personal headcanon is that he TRIED to retire --sending a letter to Hammond to state just that, when he and Sam headed to the cabin in 'Threads'-- but President Hayes said "hell, no!" And asked Hammond what they could do to convince him to stay. Hammond told him what would have to happen to allow S/J to be together (in my universe, Hammond is fully aware of how much she means to Jack *see Entity*).

    Sam at Area 51 and Jack at Homeworld would put them outside of direct chain of command, resolving the regulation issue. I believe they were married before she came back to the SGC. Once married, the regs don't apply anymore (I should cite the sources here, but it would take some serious Googling and consulting with shippers who have served, which would take several days --and be repeating a process I went though back in 2011). She came back to the SGC to help with the Ori problem...it wasn't supposed to be permanent, but they convinced her to stay. Sam is an incredible scientist, but she's also an incredible Air Force officer, something as ingrained into her as the science. I think she felt she was needed on the front line --interacting with the science in the field. The regs didn't prevent her from being with Jack (IMHO, they were married by this point --beginning of S9-- so she could be at the SGC again).

    As far as the Hammond --Sam had always wanted to be an astronaut. She has the leadership experience and rank to apply for the command, and she has the technical knowledge of the ship, as she was involved in the design and development. She commanded Atlantis for a year, having it taken from her by Woolsey...which could have been a severe ding to her career (I think calmer heads prevailed in defending her up the chain of command. Anyway, I think she would have requested the command because it got her into space...SPACE. On a real, hyperdrive, Tauri ship...a program she had help birth. The command would have had a finite term of deployment, just like a captain of an aircraft carrier, so it would have been the next step in advancing her career: perhaps it would have smoothed over the disaster of Atlantis, and put her back on track to head the SGC?? It's my personal thought on it...

    Homeworld would have given Jack the ability to guide the defense of Earth, but let him have his 'happy-ever-after' with Sam. Do I think he needed to stay in service? No. He should have retired. Do I think he's too stubborn and proud to do that? Absolutely. It's a flaw I almost admire him for. He should have trusted the other, upcoming SG team leadership to fight the good fight, and be less self-centered in thinking that it literally all depended on him. Don't take that as a condemnation of Jack...I love him, and I believe he's the best man for the job. I admire him for walking into DC --a place he hates, and the politics he hates-- and trying to help guide the program for the betterment of mankind.

    Also, there's the behind-the-scenes RL issues that caused the writers to have to adapt: RDA was done with this role...he wanted to spend more time with his growing daughter (which I understand), so they had to write him out somehow. I'm just glad they didn't kill the character off!!

    sig by Ikorni

    "When Colonel Maybourne and yourself were stranded off world, Major Carter felt a similar sense of frustration. She despaired at the thought of never seeing you again." ~Teal'c
    "I didn't leave…because I'd have rather died myself…than lose Carter." ~Jack O'Neill


    SaraBahama FanFic; AO3

  8. #62448
    Lieutenant Colonel SaraBahama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by gate101 View Post
    I've seen people mention this before but I didn't see tears. It was IMO just a weird directorial choice. Sam is on the gurney and they cut to Jack wiping under his eye. But since there are no tears that I can see, it's just a strange choice from the director I guess. Maybe RDA got something in his eye but they didn't want to do another take because of time constraints.
    Quote Originally Posted by hedwig View Post
    I found the scene where you think Jack might be wiping a tear from his eye, but can't figure out how to upload it. In that scene, he is kind of wiping his nose, which I suppose a person could also do if they have a tear in their eye. If you look in the gallery here on GW, go to that episode and skip to File 341 and you will see that picture. You can decide for yourselves what Jack might be doing.

    http://www.gateworld.net/gallery/dis....php?pid=16603
    There's a fun little behind-the-scenes fact on that scene: when RDA was rolling the gurney into the infirmary, it rolled over his foot, which was very painful. The tears were real. The director decided to go with the take, as Jack could plausibly be reacting to the thought that Sam is dying in that scene.

    sig by Ikorni

    "When Colonel Maybourne and yourself were stranded off world, Major Carter felt a similar sense of frustration. She despaired at the thought of never seeing you again." ~Teal'c
    "I didn't leave…because I'd have rather died myself…than lose Carter." ~Jack O'Neill


    SaraBahama FanFic; AO3

  9. #62449

    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraBahama View Post
    I can't speak for the writers, but as a shipper, the choice solves a plot problem (with the first change --Jack to Homeworld and Sam to Area 51): the fraternization regulations.
    It doesn't really solve it because as head of Homeworld and Sam back in the SGC, they are still in each others chain of command if you will.

    **my personal headcanon is that he TRIED to retire --sending a letter to Hammond to state just that, when he and Sam headed to the cabin in 'Threads'-- but President Hayes said "hell, no!" And asked Hammond what they could do to convince him to stay. Hammond told him what would have to happen to allow S/J to be together (in my universe, Hammond is fully aware of how much she means to Jack *see Entity*).

    Sam at Area 51 and Jack at Homeworld would put them outside of direct chain of command, resolving the regulation issue. I believe they were married before she came back to the SGC. Once married, the regs don't apply anymore (I should cite the sources here, but it would take some serious Googling and consulting with shippers who have served, which would take several days --and be repeating a process I went though back in 2011). She came back to the SGC to help with the Ori problem...it wasn't supposed to be permanent, but they convinced her to stay. Sam is an incredible scientist, but she's also an incredible Air Force officer, something as ingrained into her as the science. I think she felt she was needed on the front line --interacting with the science in the field. The regs didn't prevent her from being with Jack (IMHO, they were married by this point --beginning of S9-- so she could be at the SGC again).
    This all depends on head canon that I can't find much evidence for in the shows. I know there is the deleted scene from SGA's Trio (and even there Sam is vague instead of stating she is married) but that's not in the actual episode so it's not part of canon. Then there is also the almost kiss with Martouf in Ripple Effect. I can't see a Sam that's with Jack, especially married to him, kissing another man. And she would have if it hadn't been for an Asguard interrupting them.

    As far as the Hammond --Sam had always wanted to be an astronaut. She has the leadership experience and rank to apply for the command, and she has the technical knowledge of the ship, as she was involved in the design and development. She commanded Atlantis for a year, having it taken from her by Woolsey...which could have been a severe ding to her career (I think calmer heads prevailed in defending her up the chain of command. Anyway, I think she would have requested the command because it got her into space...SPACE. On a real, hyperdrive, Tauri ship...a program she had help birth. The command would have had a finite term of deployment, just like a captain of an aircraft carrier, so it would have been the next step in advancing her career: perhaps it would have smoothed over the disaster of Atlantis, and put her back on track to head the SGC?? It's my personal thought on it...
    Commander of Atlantis is nice and all but it just doesn't work for me. Commanders are a dime a dozen (O'Neill would have made more sense), Sam's brain is not. It makes no sense that they would waste Sam there. Atlantis already has McKay and SGA doesn't use Sam for her brain much for that reason. Earth would be stupid to put two of their best minds at the same place, wasting one of them in the process. Never mind that if Atlantis goes down (a very real possibility), they will have lost 2 smart people.

    Sam also lacks in the leadership department, thanks to the crappy writing of the later SG-1 Seasons. They did too many Earth episodes in S8 so Sam didn't even get much of a chance to develop a commanding experience. And Cam was leader (God knows why) in S9-10. Not only that but they dumbed down her intelligence. Don't get me started on the stupidity of Unending, where she would have found a solution in days or a few weeks (I believe someone in the episode thread even listed many of her options).

    Homeworld would have given Jack the ability to guide the defense of Earth, but let him have his 'happy-ever-after' with Sam. Do I think he needed to stay in service? No. He should have retired. Do I think he's too stubborn and proud to do that? Absolutely. It's a flaw I almost admire him for. He should have trusted the other, upcoming SG team leadership to fight the good fight, and be less self-centered in thinking that it literally all depended on him. Don't take that as a condemnation of Jack...I love him, and I believe he's the best man for the job. I admire him for walking into DC --a place he hates, and the politics he hates-- and trying to help guide the program for the betterment of mankind.

    Also, there's the behind-the-scenes RL issues that caused the writers to have to adapt: RDA was done with this role...he wanted to spend more time with his growing daughter (which I understand), so they had to write him out somehow. I'm just glad they didn't kill the character off!!
    Do I think Jack would have still wanted to help in some way? Absolutely. Do I think the way the writers did it worked for me? Nope. Jack is not really made for a desk job, as Season 8 proved to me. And his disdain for politics/politicians and lack of diplomacy wouldn't help anyone. I understand all the Doylist reasons why this was done but it makes no sense in universe considering his character.

  10. #62450
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraBahama View Post
    There's a fun little behind-the-scenes fact on that scene: when RDA was rolling the gurney into the infirmary, it rolled over his foot, which was very painful. The tears were real. The director decided to go with the take, as Jack could plausibly be reacting to the thought that Sam is dying in that scene.
    Oh, that´s better than wipping his nose. But poor Rick. Thanks a lot

  11. #62451
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraBahama View Post
    I'm just glad they didn't kill the character off!!

    I've always wondered if there was ever a variant "dead Jack" on the table. I mean when RDA leaved the show there had to be more options here. But fishing is great ending for me. And allways

  12. #62452
    Lieutenant Colonel SaraBahama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    There are cases of married couples serving the in the same chain of command. The only way that really works for S/J is what I mentioned before: if they married prior to Sam returning to the SGC in S9. You've got to go with your own gut/convictions/suspension of disbelief on this. I just can't see a reality where they don't end up together. It's just me.


    Quote Originally Posted by gate101 View Post
    <snip> Don't get me started on the stupidity of Unending, where she would have found a solution in days or a few weeks (I believe someone in the episode thread even listed many of her options).
    I'm with you on this. I pretty much ignore this episode for these reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by gate101 View Post
    Do I think Jack would have still wanted to help in some way? Absolutely. Do I think the way the writers did it worked for me? Nope. <snip>
    I think this sums up S9-10 (and the associated ratings) pretty well. They made some poor choices for the show, and the show suffered. Meanwhile, NCIS is on Season 17...

    sig by Ikorni

    "When Colonel Maybourne and yourself were stranded off world, Major Carter felt a similar sense of frustration. She despaired at the thought of never seeing you again." ~Teal'c
    "I didn't leave…because I'd have rather died myself…than lose Carter." ~Jack O'Neill


    SaraBahama FanFic; AO3

  13. #62453

    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by SaraBahama View Post
    There are cases of married couples serving the in the same chain of command. The only way that really works for S/J is what I mentioned before: if they married prior to Sam returning to the SGC in S9. You've got to go with your own gut/convictions/suspension of disbelief on this. I just can't see a reality where they don't end up together. It's just me.
    And I would love to believe they got their crap sorted out post Threads, unfortunately the shows make it really hard to believe. The biggest hint of them being together is not even part of canon because for some idiotic reason they decided to cut it. And I can't get past the Martouf almost kiss. I don't like fickle Sam (it was bad enough already in S7-8) because Jack deserves better than that.

    The upside is that I usually ignore S9-10 because it's a train wreck on almost all fronts so I go with my own story in my head. However sometimes I slip up and remember those Seasons lol.

    I'm with you on this. I pretty much ignore this episode for these reasons.
    Between the episode being boring, no mention whatsoever of Jack, the nonsensical plot and Asguard mass suicide (wth?), it's not just the worst Season Finale of the show but among the worst Series Finales I have ever seen.

  14. #62454
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    I never understood that whole mass suicide thing. They had so much knowledge, and they had been "guiding" the humans. It just made no sense. "There's no hope for us, so we're just going to cap ourselves and stop helping you develop." Uh...no.
    https://forum.gateworld.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13540&d=1218150728

  15. #62455

    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithworshipper View Post
    I never understood that whole mass suicide thing. They had so much knowledge, and they had been "guiding" the humans. It just made no sense. "There's no hope for us, so we're just going to cap ourselves and stop helping you develop." Uh...no.
    The Asguard, like all the highly advanced races in the show, were the dumbest smart people ever. They couldn't figure out that copying the previous body over and over again would lead to degradation? Why didn't they keep their original body in stasis for example? Or why not go cybernetic? And what happened with the 30k years old body Heimdall procured? They didn't ask O'Neill after the whole Antarctica thing (when he was hooked up the Thor's ship) to sift through the Ancient knowledge and see if he can find something? They didn't reach out to the Pegaus Asguard and ask them if they found a way? The whole thing was just stupid, and so where the Asguard. No wait, they can only be as smart as the writers/showrunners...

    And Thor doesn't say goodbye to O'Neill, his fave human? What a freaking insult by the writers.

  16. #62456
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Yeah. The writers screwed the pooch, AND the viewers, on that story line. You bring up some very good ideas. On the other hand, I'm not so sure I personally would want to go cybernetic. Anyway, it seems to me Jack would have an out of the box idea from which they could have at least started with Sam on the project. She was wasted on SGA, and I had really liked that show. She and McKay should have been equals, but they made her the "dumb blonde" to McKay's ego. I always wished she'd gone civilian just long enough for her and Jack to have a kid, and then her get pulled back into SGC for the sake of the family.
    Last edited by Wraithworshipper; May 14th, 2020 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Really bad grammar.
    https://forum.gateworld.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=13540&d=1218150728

  17. #62457

    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithworshipper View Post
    Yeah. The writers screwed the pooch, AND the viewers, on that story line. You bring up some very good ideas. On the other hand, I'm not so sure I personally would want to go cybernetic. Anyway, it seems to me Jack would have an out of the box idea from which they could have at least started with Sam on the project. She was wasted on SGA, and I had really liked that show. She and McKay should have been equals, but they made her the "dumb blonde" to McKay's ego. I always wished she'd gone civilian just long enough for her and Jack to have a kid, and then her get pulled back into SGC for the sake of the family.
    I'm not saying to go cybernetic indefinitely, just as a temporary solution. Look at the replicators, even completely mechanical beings can continue to learn and evolve. Thor might make a big deal about how their current form is needed to host their knowledge (hence bigger heads compared to the 30k old body because more knowledge) but Thor was stored in a tiny crystal after his encounter with Anubis.

    Jack didn't really need out of the box thinking. Thor has said they couldn't get anything from the Ancient database (extracted in Fifth Race) the first time because it has no index so finding anything takes forever. All he had to do was make use of Jack when he was hooked up to Thor's ship.

    Neither Jack nor Sam would have to go civilian IMO. They would just need to be in positions that make sense for their characters and talents. IMO Jack would rather eat a bullet than be permanently seated behind a desk surrounded by politicians. That was a major part of his character for the first 6 Seasons. The last thing the President/Pentagon/Chiefs of Staff would want is an elephant in a china shop considering the delicacy of the SGC/SGA. Sam also doesn't have to become a civilian, she just needs to be used in a way that makes sense. And the way she was used in SG-1 (S9-10)/SGA/SGU was definitely not it. Her brain is her asset, commanders and soldiers are plenty. I just can't see a way where the higher ups would waste her brain nor do I see Sam being happy with a command job. This is the woman who spend her free time (including leave/vacation) on base so she could tinker with something to figure it out, make it better or reverse engineer it. And she could have a kid just as well by still being military.

  18. #62458
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    Default Re: Sam Carter /Jack O'Neill Ship Appreciation Thread 2.0

    Rewatching the show for the first time in years and I have once again fallen down the Sam/Jack shipping rabbit hole.

    I was thinking about tackling some of the novels and while I understand most of the Fandemonium ones are pretty good I'd like to know which ones as a Sam/Jack shipper I must read FIRST.

    Honestly I was surprised that they are still being published, with what appears to be the most recent one in July 2019?

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