Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Chloe - Jennifer Keller 2.0?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Chloe - Jennifer Keller 2.0?

    Jennifer Keller was that one chick who many (I'll use that term even if some of you might disagree) fans thought was a Mary Sue. She swooped into the show and many (again I'll use that term) fans felt that she was shoehorned into a lot of episodes.

    I kinda feel like that's what's happening to Chloe now. I mean, for one thing, she's a Mary Sue. For another, she doesn't really do much on the ship. All she does is have sex with Scott and then we got a lot of angst about her dead father (which was good TV) and then a lot of angst about her best friend sleeping with her ex-boyfriend (which was bad TV, especially considering the fact that she's sleeping with Scott anyway, so what the hell does it matter). Yet she gets a lot of screen time with her not-doing-muchness.

    And then in "Justice", the writers obviously shoe-horned her into the episode just to have her have something to do. I mean, she got, what, 10 lines and none them were anything that none of us (me, you, that cat over there) could've done just as well or better ourselves.

    I mean, the questions she was asking the witnesses, I could do that much better. It's not like she did anything special. I mean, she studied political science and Young chose her to be his defender. That just screamed shoehorning to me.

    I mean, she wasn't a terrible defense attorney. But the PTB want us to believe that out of all of the people on the ship, Young felt that Chloe was the closest thing he could find to a defense attorney? Come on! This is getting ridiculous.

    I mean, I wouldn't mind if they just explored her character more, gave us more insight into what makes her tick, give her character development, make her a better, more mature character, like, for instance, have her grow out of that BS we saw in "Earth". Just... don't obviously shoehorn her into episodes and have her do things she's clearly under-qualified to do.

    I serenely hope that the PTB will refrain from such obvious (and ineffectual) shoehorning in the future.
    Last edited by FallenAngelII; 07 December 2009, 10:27 AM.




    #2
    Keller is sometimes considered a 'Mary Sue' because her medical abilities are way beyond those that she should conceivably be able to have at her age.

    Chloe on the other hand has no abilities or role on the ship.

    As Young however said, the trial was more about politics than Law and that makes sense. And as such, it's entirely possible that a political science student could do a damn good defence for Young. Probably better than any of the techies.

    And incidentally, she was upset with her best friend for betraying her. She wasn't upset about losing her boyfriend. Which also happened BEFORE she left for Icarus.


    "Five Rounds Rapid"

    sigpic

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Flying Officer Bennett View Post
      Keller is sometimes considered a 'Mary Sue' because her medical abilities are way beyond those that she should conceivably be able to have at her age.

      Chloe on the other hand has no abilities or role on the ship.
      You don't have to be unnaturally talented to be a Mary Sue. Just look at the "Twilight"-series. Mary Sues comes in many shapes and colors.

      IMO, Chloe is a Mary Sue in the way she's written. She's written in a way that is intended to make her the nice little girl who never does anything wrong (intentionally, anyway). She does everything right, she's always in fray of things, even when she's unqualified and sparkles (sorry, couldn't help myself), I mean dazzles, I mean excels even when she's unqualified.

      Originally posted by Flying Officer Bennett View Post
      As Young however said, the trial was more about politics than Law and that makes sense. And as such, it's entirely possible that a political science student could do a damn good defence for Young. Probably better than any of the techies.
      And we saw nothing that required a political science background during the "trial". We saw things that required a law degree, or just a lot of viewing of any of the "Law & Order"'s. I mean, what part of that "trial" required knowledge of political science?

      From what I could see, nothing. Yet Chloe Sue still "excelled". She did a decent job of defending him using nothing but her wit and secret love of "Law & Order: SVU".

      Originally posted by Flying Officer Bennett View Post
      And incidentally, she was upset with her best friend for betraying her. She wasn't upset about losing her boyfriend. Which also happened BEFORE she left for Icarus.
      But she got upset in a highly immature way. And used someone else's body to get them recklessly drunk (I mean, what if she'd gotten alcohol poisoning?).

      The point of that was that, really, it shouldn't have mattered that much. And she couldn't be sure they were sleeping together before she broke up with him. Because, really, most rational people don't view it was some kind of evil betrayal to have your best friend hook up with your ex-boyfriend.



      Comment


        #4
        I found it ridiculous that Chloe was put in for the defense. It seemed to me TPTB really have no idea themselves what to do with her character.
        no means no, and so does pepper spray
        Sig by The Carpenter
        sigpic

        Comment


          #5
          Oh how I love threads like these!

          First off, I'll advise that you go against shoe horning Chloe until things develop further. Sure we can say Keller was a Mary Sue (So was Carter, by the by) because we have the wonderful gift of hindsight. In a show like this one, there seems to be a big importance on character development, and whatever journeys may arise are what we're seeing.

          So one week, we see Chloe lose her father. The next, she grieves. A few weeks later, she finds comfort with Scott. Another few weeks pass, and she gets drunk and realises her life was "shallow and pointless". In Time, we see her volunteering and helping out on the jungle planet (Albeit in an alternate timeline, but we still learnt things in that episode that could apply to the one we have). In Justice, we see her use her Harvard skills - for once, something she learnt comes into play!

          Young goes to her for help, and she does admirably enough. We've heard of her Harvard background, and it gets used. No random superpower that gets shoehorned into the episode for convenience - a small throwaway that established her as somewhat smart back in the pilot, and now comes in handy. She doesn't save the day or anything - just helps along.

          Here's a definition of Mary Sue that may come in handy for my closing argument:

          The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of author appeal. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

          She has an unusual and dramatic Back Story. The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her into their group, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting; if any character doesn't love her, that character gets an extremely unsympathetic portrayal. She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character — their love interest, illegitimate child, never-before-mentioned sister, etc. Other than that, the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders, watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise and solves problems that have stymied them for the entire series.

          In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.
          Note though that that description is about fan-created Mary Sues, my point is basically the same:

          Come on, does that really fit Chloe to a tee? I must've missed the episode where people fawned over her beauty, and her over-skilledness saved the day. She didn't outstrip anyone in anything. Maybe Keller was like that, but not really Chloe (Or Sam, but she's in a different category, I'm thinking.).
          ~ When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take back the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that BURNS YOUR HOUSE DOWN! ~

          ~ Burning people! He says what we're all thinking! ~

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
            First off, I'll advise that you go against shoe horning Chloe until things develop further. Sure we can say Keller was a Mary Sue (So was Carter, by the by) because we have the wonderful gift of hindsight. In a show like this one, there seems to be a big importance on character development, and whatever journeys may arise are what we're seeing.
            I can call a shoehorn right now. It's not hard to spot.

            I didn't want to call Sam a Mary Sue because I've waged that war way too many times. But in many ways, she was a Mary Sue in certain episodes/plotlines/seasons.

            Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
            In Justice, we see her use her Harvard skills - for once, something she learnt comes into play!
            What did she do in this episode that showcased her Harvard skills? As in, what did she do in this episode that you can only do if you've gone to Harvard and/or studied political science? I could ask all of the same questions (and do it better) half-asleep just by watching a lot of "Law & Order" and not being an idiot alone.

            I mean, most of the questions she posed the witnesses were no-brainers and from what I can tell none of them requires you to have a background in political science to know to ask.

            Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
            Young goes to her for help, and she does admirably enough.
            The point is not that she didn't fail. The point is that according to Young, the episode and the PTB, out of all of the people on the ship, Chloe was the best person for the job. Oh really? You really want us to believe that?

            Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
            We've heard of her Harvard background, and it gets used. No random superpower that gets shoehorned into the episode for convenience - a small throwaway that established her as somewhat smart back in the pilot, and now comes in handy. She doesn't save the day or anything - just helps along.
            You're not getting this whole "shoehorning" thing. She didn't magically land a new superpower. She was shoehorned into the episode doing something allegedly only she could do when it's apparent to anyone with half a brain that it was not something that only she could do.

            I mean, the PTB actually come right out and tell us that she's the best person for the job (through writing it into Young's lines) when she didn't really do anything spectacular this episode.

            Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
            Here's a definition of Mary Sue that may come in handy for my closing argument:

            Note though that that description is about fan-created Mary Sues, my point is basically the same:
            Blah blah, I won't even address that.

            Originally posted by MattSilver 3k View Post
            I must've missed the episode where people fawned over her beauty, and her over-skilledness saved the day.
            1) Scott, Eli, love triangle. You were saying?
            2) She has a Harvard degree (I assume) in political science. This makes her qualified to act as a defense attorney. And according to you she did an "admirable" job. You were saying?



            Comment


              #7
              Here is my thought on how Chloe was used in this episode...

              I think Col. Young is trying to find ways for everyone to contribute. Chloe is the only one (so far that we've been introduced to) that has no background in a hard science. Sure, the trial wasn't necessarily something that anyone with a brain and some Law & Order knowledge couldn't have attempted. Some may have performed better, some may have performed abysmally. I don't think Chloe's performance was outstanding or groundbreaking.

              I think that Col. Young recognized a Poli Sci major from Harvard would have some intelligence and the critical thinking skills necessary to navigate what potentially could have become very murky political waters. In the end, it turned out to be a much less dramatic scenario than it could have been. I'm not saying that the scientists don't have critical thinking skills, just that their thought processes and approaches to problems are different. It is also not a huge leap for Young to have made to ask Chloe to help; Political Science is a very common undergrad degree for many lawyers.

              Chloe's skill set is so outside of that of anyone else on board the ship, I expect to see her used in many unique situations throughout their journey. I really didn't see this so much as shoe-horning as providing a character who had a relevant skill set an opportunity to contribute.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Ely View Post
                I think Col. Young is trying to find ways for everyone to contribute. Chloe is the only one (so far that we've been introduced to) that has no background in a hard science.
                Maybe your definition of "hard science" is a bit different than the lexical one, but as far as I know, none of the military personnel nor Wray have a background in science at all.

                Originally posted by Ely View Post
                Sure, the trial wasn't necessarily something that anyone with a brain and some Law & Order knowledge couldn't have attempted. Some may have performed better, some may have performed abysmally. I don't think Chloe's performance was outstanding or groundbreaking.
                Which makes you a smart person.

                Far too many people are raving about how Chloe did great, how she showed her usefulness, how it made her a great character, etc.

                Originally posted by Ely View Post
                I think that Col. Young recognized a Poli Sci major from Harvard would have some intelligence and the critical thinking skills necessary to navigate what potentially could have become very murky political waters.
                The point is that the writers expressively state, through Young, that Chloe was the very best person for the job. Which just screams "Mary Sue".

                Originally posted by Ely View Post
                In the end, it turned out to be a much less dramatic scenario than it could have been.
                Which makes it all feel like such a shoehorning. I mean, if it had developed into something where Chloe's political science background would have mattered, it would've made sense to have her as Young's attorney. But it didn't and Chloe got stuck doing something anyone with half a brain would be able to do, making it feel like the writers just needed something for her to do.

                Originally posted by Ely View Post
                I'm not saying that the scientists don't have critical thinking skills, just that their thought processes and approaches to problems are different. It is also not a huge leap for Young to have made to ask Chloe to help; Political Science is a very common undergrad degree for many lawyers.
                Umm... just because political science may be a common undergrad degree for many lawyers does not mean being a political science degree holder makes you a qualified lawyer or more qualified than someone who doesn't. They are completely different things, as far as I know.

                Originally posted by Ely View Post
                Chloe's skill set is so outside of that of anyone else on board the ship, I expect to see her used in many unique situations throughout their journey. I really didn't see this so much as shoe-horning as providing a character who had a relevant skill set an opportunity to contribute.
                But the thing is that her skills were not used in this episode. This episode had her use skills everyone with half a brain has.



                Comment


                  #9
                  I don't remember anyone calling Keller a Mary Sue, quite the opposite in some cases, I find the Chloe comparison equally as confusing, as she's the complete opposite of a Mary Sue, if anything she's been (quite rightly) portrayed as pretty much useless.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by KEK View Post
                    I don't remember anyone calling Keller a Mary Sue, quite the opposite in some cases, I find the Chloe comparison equally as confusing, as she's the complete opposite of a Mary Sue, if anything she's been (quite rightly) portrayed as pretty much useless.
                    1) You must not have been paying attention then. Keller was, in many ways, the very definition of a Mary Sue.
                    2) Yet she keeps appearing in a lot of episodes, getting to do things she has no qualifications for, such as going off-world to that Alien-burrowers planet and acting as Young's defense attorney. Clearly, the writers are trying to imply that while her education is of no use to the crew, she is a person of many skills who has yet to realize her potential, that she can do anything as long as she sets her mind to it.



                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                      1) You must not have been paying attention then. Keller was, in many ways, the very definition of a Mary Sue.
                      A Mary Sue is an overly idealized character, written without flaws and held up as some sort of role model. Keller was a doctor with low self esteem and nervous tendencies in dangerous situations, which she was heavily criticised for. She was the complete opposite of a Mary Sue.

                      2) Yet she keeps appearing in a lot of episodes, getting to do things she has no qualifications for, such as going off-world to that Alien-burrowers planet and
                      Pretty sure you don't need qualifications to pick fruit, and as was revealed in the pilot, Young was prepared to send anyone off world whether they were trained for it or not to 'see what they were made of' like he did with Eli.

                      acting as Young's defense attorney.
                      No one on the ship was qualified for it, but seeing as it was established in the pilot that she has a background in that field, plus she's a main character, she was an obvious choice.

                      Clearly, the writers are trying to imply that while her education is of no use to the crew, she is a person of many skills who has yet to realize her potential, that she can do anything as long as she sets her mind to it.
                      Clearly? Just sounds like masses of speculation on your part to me. At no point has there been a scene where it's been implied that 'she can do anything as long as she sets her mind to it'. Quite the opposite, in fact.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by KEK View Post
                        A Mary Sue is an overly idealized character, written without flaws and held up as some sort of role model. Keller was a doctor with low self esteem and nervous tendencies in dangerous situations, which she was heavily criticised for. She was the complete opposite of a Mary Sue.
                        I'm sorry, you must have missed season 5 of Atlantis.

                        Originally posted by KEK View Post
                        Pretty sure you don't need qualifications to pick fruit, and as was revealed in the pilot, Young was prepared to send anyone off world whether they were trained for it or not to 'see what they were made of' like he did with Eli.
                        No, but you need to be trained in off-world travel, how to handle a weapon, how to, I don't know, run really fast, should they encounter hostiles. We've seen very few people leave the ship to go off world and Chloe just happens to be one of those despite her having no skills whatsoever to aid the expedition off world! Why her? Why not another scientist or another soldier?

                        Every person off world is another possible liability in case of an emergency or a combat situation.

                        Originally posted by KEK View Post
                        No one on the ship was qualified for it, but seeing as it was established in the pilot that she has a background in that field, plus she's a main character, she was an obvious choice.
                        She does not have a background in law! Political science =/= Law.

                        Originally posted by KEK View Post
                        Clearly? Just sounds like masses of speculation on your part to me. At no point has there been a scene where it's been implied that 'she can do anything as long as she sets her mind to it'. Quite the opposite, in fact.
                        If you look at the things the PTB have had her do insofar, that's what it's beginning to look like. Just take a look at "Justice".



                        Comment


                          #13
                          [quote]The point is that according to Young, the episode and the PTB, out of all of the people on the ship, Chloe was the best person for the job. Oh really? You really want us to believe that?[/quote\

                          Like who? Since you brought it up, please tell us who else on the ship would have been a better option. Note, none of the military personnel are eligible as per Young's request.
                          I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            My thoughts aren't directed at any comments above in particular, just general musings on the subject.

                            I thought Chloe was a very logical choice for Young's "defense attorney". a) she's a civilian, he mentioned trying to keep military and civilians from getting too divided on board and b) she has political skills, both in education and in application (working for a Senator, yes her Dad, whatever)

                            What more did Young really need? What am I missing? As for what she did during the discover/trial/hearing/whatever that was... I thought she handled herself with a confidence we hadn't seen from her yet. If some of her questions seemed shallow, it's because the evidence was shallow. I thought that was her point and that she brought it to light very well.

                            Also, she worked with Wray and at the same time didn't let Wray walk all over her. I know it sounds simple, but I doubt people understand how much diplomacy is involved in getting down to working on a project when you and someone you work with are at opposites on the outcome. The comment about "my turn to ask a question, like we agreed" and their subsequent hallway conversation that leads me to the fact that they had a pow-wow about how to proceed and likely compromises were made, etc. Chloe wasn't going to let Wray steal her thunder, so to speak.

                            She has been fumbling around on Destiny (as have many others). It kind of drives me nuts when so many people point out her lack of skills ~ um... she's the one who told you this! She laments about being thrown into a situation she's completely unprepared for and not having a useful skill set. That's part of the point of the whole show. We're told repeatedly that these are the wrong people. Which is another thing that baffles me a bit, but that's another story.

                            I also don't see how she "saved the day". She played a part, sure, but the outcome wasn't determined by her actions.

                            As for shoehorning characters, I think it's called science fiction. There are some roles that you see coming a mile away and some character roles that surprise you. It's the combination of the two that leads to compelling storytelling. If everything is unexpected, you alienate fans of the genre. If everything matches formula, you bore the same fans. Which means there's always going to be something to complain about on one side or the other.
                            "She was so typical."
                            "She was so out of character."

                            I guess that's what keeps fan sites like this one alive and kicking!

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Avenger View Post
                              Like who? Since you brought it up, please tell us who else on the ship would have been a better option. Note, none of the military personnel are eligible as per Young's request.
                              We've only gotten to know the backgrounds of, what, 15 people? I sincerely doubt that out of the 80 or so people currently on the ship, Chloe was the best qualified to act as a defense attorney... because she has a background in political science.

                              Especially if you look at the way she is. Insecure, not assertive, aimless, currently without a position on the ship (almost everyone else has something they do in order to improve life for everybody on the ship).

                              So Young took a look at her Harvard background in political science and went "You're the most qualified person"? I mean, no one else on the ship has a background in law of any kind?



                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X