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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    First of all, you're completely twisting my argument. I never said that stories can't be derivative. West Side Story is extremely derivative of Romeo and Juliet, it's pretty much a retelling of the story but that doesn't mean it's bad. It just can't be as unique as the original.

    Second, I never even said that Dollhouse was bad because it was derivative. This is what I said:



    I simply said that Dollhouse is a lot less original than Whedon's other works.

    Third, did you even read my posts? I'm not saying that Dollhouse only took basic plot ideas from other sources. I'm saying that it took specific details from other sources. I'm not saying that an artist who paints a portrait of a woman is trying to copy Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa. However, if an artist paints a portrait, using the same style and materials as Leonardo da Vinci used, of a woman who happens to look a lot like the woman in Mona Lisa, sitting in a similar position, wearing similar clothes, and didn't paint the eyebrows then maybe it just might be possible that the artist was trying to imitate or copy the Mona Lisa.
    Derivative is typically used in a negative fashion.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL2100 View Post
    Derivative is typically used in a negative fashion.
    That doesn't change the fact that Dollhouse is more derivative than Whedon's other work.

  3. #83
    Lieutenant Colonel Coronach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    I think it's a shame Dollhouse got cancelled. In my humble opinion, I felt it was really a good show...and it was only getting better in Season 2. Ah well
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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    I saw it coming when FOX cancelled The Sarah Connor Chronicles last season.
    Don't green it unless you mean it.

  5. #85
    First Lieutenant badwolfSG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by -Major Woody View Post
    I saw it coming when FOX cancelled The Sarah Connor Chronicles last season.
    I saw Dollhouse and Sarah Connor Chronicles both being Cancelled, which is why I stopped watching them. I, personally, thought they were both great shows, but I just was getting feed up with getting really into a show and it being cancelled on me.
    There are my dogs!


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  6. #86
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by badwolfSG View Post
    I saw Dollhouse and Sarah Connor Chronicles both being Cancelled, which is why I stopped watching them. I, personally, thought they were both great shows, but I just was getting feed up with getting really into a show and it being cancelled on me.
    At least they gave both a chance to succeed. 'Defying Gravity' was a great show with a lot of promise that ABC set up for failure from day one. Incredibly promising storyline.
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  7. #87

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Don't get why Joss still works with FOX after everything that's happened. I guess he wants exposure for his shows and in order to mainstream them he needs a big network. Although in this case can't really blame FOX. Dollhouse never seemed to gather as much support as Firefly.

  8. #88
    Captain Amalthea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by magictrick View Post
    Don't get why Joss still works with FOX after everything that's happened. I guess he wants exposure for his shows and in order to mainstream them he needs a big network. Although in this case can't really blame FOX. Dollhouse never seemed to gather as much support as Firefly.
    Well, in Joss' defense, the dweebs that canceled Firefly don't work at Fox anymore, they work at NBC. It's a whole new set of dweebs that have canceled Dollhouse.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Amalthea View Post
    Well, in Joss' defense, the dweebs that canceled Firefly don't work at Fox anymore, they work at NBC. It's a whole new set of dweebs that have canceled Dollhouse.
    I think that is really fair. Unlike Firefly Dollhouse was given a chance. You can't blame Fox for all the failures.
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  10. #90
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by jelgate View Post
    I think that is really fair. Unlike Firefly Dollhouse was given a chance. You can't blame Fox for all the failures.
    No you can. The fundamental problem with the broadcast networks is that they want a hit right out the door. If a new show isn't a hit in the first 15 minutes of its first episode, its canceled. Exageration yes, but the point is that networks aren't willing to stick with a show.

    In its first season, MASH wasn't that well received and finished at 47 overall, yet in its series finale remains the highest rated in history.

    You also have nearsighted executives who don't consider the big picture. Case in point, NBC canceled Star Trek after three seasons and only later learned that while it never peaked higher then number 52, it consistently won the 16 to 39 demographic.
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  11. #91

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    The executives have their own jobs to worry about. It's not like television shows are cheap. We're talking at the very least $2 to $3 million per episode for an one hour primetime show. If you're investing $30+ million, don't you want to see some results as soon as possible? Not to mention the fact that they're not really using their own money, they have investors to worry about too. Don't forget the little problem with the screen actor's guild that almost ended up in a strike and oh yeah, the economic recession.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    The executives have their own jobs to worry about. It's not like television shows are cheap. We're talking at the very least $2 to $3 million per episode for an one hour primetime show. If you're investing $30+ million, don't you want to see some results as soon as possible? Not to mention the fact that they're not really using their own money, they have investors to worry about too. Don't forget the little problem with the screen actor's guild that almost ended up in a strike and oh yeah, the economic recession.
    But as M*A*S*H demonstrates sometimes it takes time for a series to develop. I would suggest that if you are investing $30 million then that's argument enough to stick with a show to ensure it succeeds.

    Also, I find it unlikely that a show like Dollhouse is running $2-$3 million per episode. Stark Trek:TNG ran $1M in 1987 dollars which is roughly $1.8 in 2008 dollars. Yes there's not that much difference between $1.8 M and $2M but Dollhouse is not a CGI heavy show plus costs associated with CGI have come down as well.
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL2100 View Post
    But as M*A*S*H demonstrates sometimes it takes time for a series to develop. I would suggest that if you are investing $30 million then that's argument enough to stick with a show to ensure it succeeds.

    Also, I find it unlikely that a show like Dollhouse is running $2-$3 million per episode. Stark Trek:TNG ran $1M in 1987 dollars which is roughly $1.8 in 2008 dollars. Yes there's not that much difference between $1.8 M and $2M but Dollhouse is not a CGI heavy show plus costs associated with CGI have come down as well.
    M*A*S*H was a half hour sitcom and it was cheap to make, so were other shows of its kind like Friends and Seinfeld. Those shows basically had three or four sets, their props were easily acquired, they certainly didn't have to make any of the props, their sets were pretty easy to build, they rarely shot at different locations, and all the actors did was talk for 95% of the show with some occasional slapstick. They didn't become expensive until their popularity skyrocketed and the actors began demanding ungodly salaries.

    $2 to $3 million per episode for Dollhouse is a low ball estimate. Also, it's not the CGI that's expensive, CGI is actually a lot cheaper now. However, the cost of practical effects like car crashes, fist fights, gunfire, explosions, etc., haven't changed and Dollhouse use a lot of those. There's also the locations, props, sets, training for actors, insurance, etc. I doubt the actors in M*A*S*H had to learn martial arts and they probably didn't have to be insured against injuries resulting from stunts like concussions and broken bones. In action heavy shows, insurance can cost up to 5% of the total budget.

    Also there's this:

    MGM and Sci Fi loved the spinoff idea but weren't willing to end "SG-1," which was garnering more than 2 million viewers during its Friday-night time slot. Instead, the movie idea was rewritten as the finale of Season 6, and "Stargate Atlantis" launched in 2004 as its own show. In order to keep costs down -- two-thirds of "SG-1's" $2.2 million-per-episode budget is covered by MGM, with the remainder picked up by Sci Fi -- "Atlantis" and "SG-1" share soundstages and production crew.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/..._id=1003018898

    Cable shows are generally a lot cheaper than network shows and SG1's production cost was $2.2 million in 2006 when the article was written.
    Last edited by Giantevilhead; December 14th, 2009 at 12:48 PM.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    M*A*S*H was a half hour sitcom and it was cheap to make, so were other shows of its kind like Friends and Seinfeld. Those shows basically had three or four sets, their props were easily acquired, they certainly didn't have to make any of the props, their sets were pretty easy to build, they rarely shot at different locations, and all the actors did was talk for 95% of the show with some occasional slapstick. They didn't become expensive until their popularity skyrocketed and the actors began demanding ungodly salaries.

    $2 to $3 million per episode for Dollhouse is a low ball estimate. Also, it's not the CGI that's expensive, CGI is actually a lot cheaper now. However, the cost of practical effects like car crashes, fist fights, gunfire, explosions, etc., haven't changed and Dollhouse use a lot of those. There's also the locations, props, sets, training for actors, insurance, etc. I doubt the actors in M*A*S*H had to learn martial arts and they probably didn't have to be insured against injuries resulting from stunts like concussions and broken bones. In action heavy shows, insurance can cost up to 5% of the total budget.

    Also there's this:

    MGM and Sci Fi loved the spinoff idea but weren't willing to end "SG-1," which was garnering more than 2 million viewers during its Friday-night time slot. Instead, the movie idea was rewritten as the finale of Season 6, and "Stargate Atlantis" launched in 2004 as its own show. In order to keep costs down -- two-thirds of "SG-1's" $2.2 million-per-episode budget is covered by MGM, with the remainder picked up by Sci Fi -- "Atlantis" and "SG-1" share soundstages and production crew.

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/..._id=1003018898

    Cable shows are generally a lot cheaper than network shows and SG1's production cost was $2.2 million in 2006 when the article was written.
    You're still missing the underlying concept - TV Networks aren't willing to stick by a show and give it a chance to.
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  15. #95

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL2100 View Post
    You're still missing the underlying concept - TV Networks aren't willing to stick by a show and give it a chance to.
    You're still missing the underlying concept that they can't just blow $60 to $70 million on a project over 3 or 4 years and hope that the viewers will eventually increase to the point where they can make back their investment.

    It would be like if your boss told you that he's going to cut your salary to almost nothing for the next three years but after that he'll double it for as long as you work for him. That may sound like a good deal but what are you going to do for those three years where your salary is cut? It's not like you can just forget about food, shelter, health care, and family for those three years.

    Then there's the added problem that network executives aren't just using their own money, they have investors to worry about. The more you borrow, the harder it is to hold off your creditors. Just try going to a bank, borrow $20,000 and when they ask you to pay you back, tell them that you'll pay them back in 3 years with triple the interest but for now you need an additional $20,000 every year until then. See how fast they send the repo squad after you.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Giantevilhead View Post
    You're still missing the underlying concept that they can't just blow $60 to $70 million on a project over 3 or 4 years and hope that the viewers will eventually increase to the point where they can make back their investment.
    Everyone knows that the real value of a show is in syndication. The general consensus is that takes a minimum of 60-ish episodes for syndication, ideally 100. At a million an episode you're looking at an investment of $60 million - $100 million for the show to earn back its investment in syndication.

    Furthermore, the $60M-$70M isn't blown because you have to factor in ad revenue from the advertisers. Yes, ratings directly impact rates for a show, but you will not find a network that gives away 100% of the available time. The network may not make a killing on the show, but they're certainly not loosing their shirts.
    Last edited by HAL2100; December 14th, 2009 at 07:19 PM.
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  17. #97

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by HAL2100 View Post
    Everyone knows that the real value of a show is in syndication. The general consensus is that takes a minimum of 60-ish episodes for syndication, ideally 100. At a million an episode you're looking at an investment of $60 million - $100 million for the show to earn back its investment in syndication.

    Furthermore, the $60M-$70M isn't blown because you have to factor in ad revenue from the advertisers. Yes, ratings directly impact rates for a show, but you will not find a network that gives away 100% of the available time. The network may not make a killing on the show, but they're certainly not loosing their shirts.
    First of all, as mentioned before, an episode costs $2 million at the very least. Also, the number of episodes needed for stripped syndication is 15 weeks without repeats, which is at least 75 episodes. That means the very minimum they need to invest is $150 million, although in reality it'll probably be closer to $200 million.

    They clearly aren't making the money back from ad revenue nor are they getting much from DVD sales. Dollhouse obviously won't bankrupt Fox. Heck, 20th Century Fox Television earns about $1 billion per year, the company probably won't blink over those losses. However, the executives who made those decisions are going out the door fast. Just because a company is big and can absorb big losses with no trouble doesn't mean it's willing to accept those losses.

    The thing you have to get straight here is that the Fox company is not some monolithic entity that makes every decision about every show. It's beholden to its investors. The reason why Fox was willing to take risks back when it first came on was because there was a much smaller number of investors who knew that putting money in this brand new network to compete against ABC, CBS, and NBC was a risk. Now that it is one of the big networks, it has a lot more investors, most of whom do not want the company to take too many risks. They are not acceptable of losses and any executive who can't make back their investment is getting the boot unless that executive is extremely trustworthy and has been able to produce hits. Not to mention the fact that getting a show to syndication generally requires some long term planning. Just look at what they're doing with "Til Death," that show's ratings were always low but it was decided pretty early on that they were going to let it run its course so it could get into syndication.

  18. #98
    Airman lystelle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    I am so very bummed that Dollhouse got cancelled. I really thought that the show was even better this season, and I loved season 1. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...it is Fox.

    I'm glad that they're still playing out all the episodes, since we'll have to no doubt wait forever before it's released on DVD. Hopefully there will be some excellent special features.

  19. #99
    Colonel Replicator Todd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Joss needs to experiment with cable....or NBC.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Fox Cancels Dollhouse

    Joss needs to get his next show on a premium channel. His fan base is simply not big enough to support a primetime network show. However, those fans are probably dedicated enough to subscribe to HBO or Showtime for a Whedon show. The 2 to 2.5 million fans may not be enough for network TV but 2 to 2.5 million new subscriptions for a premium channel is a lot. Also, premium channels give their shows much more creative freedom and they don't have censors.

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