Daniel Jackson/Vala Mal Doran Ship/Discussion/Appreciation Thread

[Dani347]

I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack O´Neill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists???? Now I understand why Richard Dean Anderson isn´t willingly to sign for another episode more! He was always very much engaged for human rights! That is also Stargates new direction. I hope Roland Emmerich has enough money to by the righs back from this people who own them now!

I´m bitterly disappointed and wished I had never buyed any Stargate DVD´s!

Jana

Just a bit of clarification. So, far, this is only about Vala. There's no indication that BB's character will be anything like Vala.

[Margaret]

I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack O´Neill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists???? Now I understand why Richard Dean Anderson isn´t willingly to sign for another episode more! He was always very much engaged for human rights! That is also Stargates new direction. I hope Roland Emmerich has enough money to by the righs back from this people who own them now!

I´m bitterly disappointed and wished I had never buyed any Stargate DVD´s!

Jana

Jana, I'm so sorry I've upset you.

Fanfic writers have used SG-1 characters to explore serious human rights issues for years. I don't think the Boys at the Bridge had any such intentions, though. I think this episode was intended to be a comedy: Vala is a "bad girl" who gives Daniel a hard time.

Graculus and I may be discussing this at a deeper level than it really warrants. The folks at the studio played it for laughs. If you want to just sit back and enjoy it as slapstick comedy, that's an OK position to take. It's probably what the writers intended, anyway. No one thinks they're really that deep.

Please don't give up on Stargate just 'cuz I run off at the mouth . . . er, keyboard.

[Margaret]

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

The first post in this thread is very interesting and should be here

I agree. This is really excellent.

Thanks for pointing it out!

[Margaret]

Scapers love Vala, most of Gaters seem to hate her. Interesting...

Well, I don't hate Vala, but do you think Daniel Jackson is attracted to her? Or ever *might* be attracted to her?

And even more, do you think it would be a good thing or a bad thing for him if he were?

[MagnoliaAnaglypta]

And, come on, did he really *need* to undress her? Vala had already taken off the Supersoldier armor herself.

You know, you're absolutely right. Daniel's only excuse for taking off the bodysuit would be Vala's own claim that it still deflected zat blasts. But since he had in fact zatted her which had knocked her very successfully, it was clear that the suit didn't live up to her claims, and therefore he had no real excuse for removing it.

This is a rather disappointing reflection on Daniel.

[MartoufMarty]

Yeah, I didn't really like the whole thing with 'undressing'.

Love the fight though. That was hilarious. It's like they were having a big cat fight or something lol.

Another pointless part of the episode Prometheus Unbounded was after Hammond was taken back to their little crap Alkesh and the whole 'mouth to mouth' thing. Why did they have to have that in there? It seems quite pointless to me.

[MajorSam]

They should TOTALLY be together!!! Sarah is too good for Daniel, he needs someone like Vala! I mean, that fight, you just can't deny it!!! They are sooooooo doing each other!!! Ship everywhere, it's BRILLIANT! (hintsamjackhint)

[graculus]

it's disturbing enough that she wanted to abuse him 'just a little bit.'

It's disturbing. Perhaps she needs to be redeemed by a good man.

The interesting thing is how much *we're* discussing gender!

Yes - it's probably mostly because I think Vala's actions look more "pathological", as opposed to morally dubious, because she's a woman.

He wouldn't have gotten mauled by Jack in Broca Divide. He could have dispatched the big bully at Hadante.

That was years ago. Daniel's been steadily improving. Not to mention working out...

I heard that just about everything Freud taught turned out to be wrong.

LOL, so I won't start analyzing the fruit on the table...

It's not about what people do under exigency.

This is what I meant by "normal" options.

You seem to be describing the syndrome, rather than showing that it does not exist.

I have zero training in psychology, so it's true I have a fuzzy idea about how you're defining it. I would be disappointed if social science was now going around labeling people with *learned* behavior sociopaths. That's just a cue for people to treat them in ways that will drive them to be even more sociopathic! Society has entirely too much fun making monsters so they can cage and punish them.

Vala's actions could be rational. She says to Daniel, "Can I have the ship? No. OK, Discussion over."

This was strange to me considering she seemed so talkative the rest of the time. I agree that her reasoning revolved around taking the ship at all costs, though.

Slapping Daiel was not rational. He was tied to the chair, he wasn't a threat to her.

It seems to me this is one of the things outlaws, not to mention certain types of military operatives, do. It was rational according to the terms they follow: just not good in terms of how peaceful people would like to see other people treated. The peaceful people can be somewhat hypocritical when they rely or expect the government to use outlaw tactics to protect them. I think the reasoning here (which I think is very wrong) is the same as when people expect criminals to get extra punishment via abuse in prison.

You say she might have been responding to her environment -- what environment? The environment on the Prometheus?

A person's life history forms their response to environmental stimuli.

then she's projecting that environment onto the Prometheus and responding to something that's not really there. That's irrational.

If that's true, everyone is irrational. Everyone brings baggage to their current information. There's no such thing as shutting off memory and experience: and if there was, I'd regard that as irrational behavior, since the person is incapable of learning.

I don't see what she expected to get out of that. Was she trying to get information? If so, then it was rational, if inneffectual.

I agree it was ineffectual. Perhaps she held back because she liked him?

One of the reasons I think she made a decision to hold back is the lingering, confused look she gave Daniel after he refused to hand over the codes (after the 'size matters' comment).

throw Daniel off balance. Daniel was subjected to the mind-numbing, disorienting effects of the emotional roller-coaster ride that is sometimes use to try to "break" people being interogated.

I agree she was trying to do this. She's probably done it before, too.

if he hits Kerri, she should recognize that he's not good mate material.

Is this from Gemini? I haven't seen it yet. I would differentiate between hitting "Kerri" during a personal argument and stuff that might occur during a combat situation. She might be able to forgive as well.
This makes me think of Teal'c hitting Jack too hard when they were sparring: Jack griped Teal'c "did it on purpose", but he didn't refer to it as abuse.

But that doesn't give a rapist the right to read "consent" into the victim's body language.

I agree, but Vala didn't rape Daniel. She just considered that he was responding to her. I'd say undressing her while she's unconscious with no discernable cause is more heinous.

Sure, but that interpretatiion of his dreams turned out to be completely wrong.

But Daniel also agreed he had issues when he was talking to Sam.

Vala did things to him against his will and without his consent. And as vulnerable and sad as it makes us feel to know that people can hurt us this way, for no reason, through no fault of our own, as scary as it is to know that we won't necessarily be able to stop it, this is the truth about what happened.

Yet Daniel continues to pursue a job where stuff like this happens all the time. Whether he's a victim or not, that doesn't seem to be the way he's processing it. He seems to think this is the stuff that happens when you work for the military and venture out into wars of a galactic scale.

recognize that unless Vala's behavior changes drastically, any future encounters with her are likely to be abusive as wellt

Daniel is also open minded: I think he will give her a chance to make a new friend.

Well, I hope the experience doesn't shatter his self-confidence.

IMHO, Daniel's a very strong person, and he's lived through much more shattering things.

handle on your fears, not lying to yourself about what actually happened. Daniel is a lot better off being honest about what happened, being wary of Vala, and not thinking of her behavior as a "game."

I agree Daniel will be honest about what happened, and he will be careful about her in the future. And he's not about to underestimate her intelligence. But I don't think this will preclude the growth of attraction.

Later,
Graculus

[graculus]

I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack O´Neill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists????

Dreamhunter - Margaret was using an exaggeration to make a point. There's no rape, and I would be hard pressed to call it molestation. I'd call it flirting. Margaret's point is that Daniel was tied in a chair at the time.

Later,
Graculus

[graculus]

Originally Posted by Kalliope
http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

The first post in this thread is very interesting and should be here

I agree. This is really excellent.

Just to clarify - this is not actually the first post of this thread. I agree it's something to discuss, though. Is there anyway it can be moved to where it's okay to spoil in dark text? It would be easier to discuss in detail.

Later,
Graculus

[graculus]

I'd say most of his slowness to react had nothing to do with him being attracted, but because Vala kept changing the rules.

I agree this can be interpreted either way.

Later,
Graculus

[Hathor999]

Are you sure you would be so shocked by this if she were a man? Come to think of it, how about Ba'all? He's a lot worse: he engaged in no-holds-barred torture. But I'd still be interested in seeing him humanized by a surprise soft spot. He doesn't have to "explain" anything: we just accept he's Ba'al. Vala is Vala. She resorts to violent and manipulative behavior that we accept, but don't necessarily like, in soldiers. Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel. It's not like we got a crotch shot.

I´m very sure that if had been a man (for an example Aris Boch treated Sam the Sam why as Vala Daniel it had lead to a outcry of shock in the fandom (and maybe outside of it). IMHO is the only reason why Valas behaviour is acceptet by many fans is BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN. But for me feels that completly wrong. I want a woman who is meant to be a "hero" of a TV-show not more a sexual molestor than a man!

And comparing Vala to Ba´al is more than strange. Ba´al was presented in very clear terms as the enemy. And I doubt that we will see him ever as a member of SG 1. And "Abyss" was a drama (but maybe was it for you a comedy, too) and "Prometheus Unbound" a slapstick comedy!
And sorry,for some people the sexualised torture of the prisoners in Irak through U.S. soldiers may be acceptable but I´m not one of them! So please don´t say "we accept" because for me is that an insult! And I doubt that the majority of man and woman who serve in the US military are proud of the ones who were reponsible for it!

[MartoufMarty]

I´m very sure that if had been a man (for an example Aris Boch treated Sam the Sam why as Vala Daniel it had lead to a outcry of shock in the fandom (and maybe outside of it). IMHO is the only reason why Valas behaviour is acceptet by many fans is BECAUSE SHE IS A WOMAN. But for me feels that completly wrong. I want a woman who is meant to be a "hero" of a TV-show not more a sexual molestor than a man!

And comparing Vala to Ba´al is more than strange. Ba´al was presented in very clear terms as the enemy. And I doubt that we will see him ever as a member of SG 1. And "Abyss" was a drama (but maybe was it for you a comedy, too) and "Prometheus Unbound" a slapstick comedy!
And sorry for some people the sexualised torture of the prisoners in Irak through U.S. soldiers as acceptable but I´m not one of them! So please don´t say "we accept" because for me is that an insult!

It's a TV show. It's not real. It's supposed to be fun.

[Hathor999]

It's a TV show. It's not real. It's supposed to be fun.

I´m sorry but for me is it no fun when a TV show propagates such things!

I doubt that the Damien Kindler had meant it that way as he had written "Prometheus Unbound" but making Vala a main character of the show is turning something what I had otherwise seen only as another bad Stargate comedy into a problem!

[graculus]

comparing Vala to Ba´al is more than strange.

I admit I may be the only one interested in knowing more about Ba'al, and being willing to look for his "more human" dimensions. Ba'al did torture Jack, and he is the enemy. Yet, I confess, he interests me anyway. Vala interests me for many of the same reasons, but I haven't placed her as an Enemy, yet. The new Sci Fi Wire article calls her a "wild card" - that makes more sense to me.

So please don´t say "we accept"

I shouldn't have said that. It's possible that very few people regard Ba'al as an interesting character. I apologize for assuming that everyone likes him as a villain, and that they like him for the complexity of his motives. This says a thing about my outlook on Iraq, though.

more a sexual molestor than a man!

I don't think it's possible to say someone is more or less of a sexual molestor. Either what you're doing is molestation or it's not. IMHO, Vala was engaging in flirtation. I also shiver to think that "sexual molestation" is now going to become an easy reactionary trump card that will replace actual discussion, much like some people use "SoapGate" to put down ship without actually thinking about it. It's symptomatic of a world where people just shout without ever listening.

Later,
Graculus