Daniel Jackson/Vala Mal Doran Ship/Discussion/Appreciation Thread

[Margaret]

Hmmm, I think Sir Walter Raleigh and/or Sir Francis Drake might have had absolutely know problem "encouraging" a Spanish prisoner this way. Hey, those guys dueled with pistols over snide remarks.

I agree that in a civilized society, striking a person is abuse. Striking a bound person is torture. U.S. society obviously has a problem holding onto it's claim to civilization in arenas of warfare, even when everyone is supposedly playing by the Geneva Convention. Out in Geneva Conventionless space, I'm not going to begin to imagine what Vala has been through and how she has come to conclude that slapping a bound prisoner around is the key to accomplishing her goals. She has the benefit of my doubt until she does something to prove she's inherently evil.

How about torturing Daniel with that device? True, we didn't get a scene like the one between Ba'al and Jack in Abyss, but I don't know if that's because Vala didn't have the time or didn't have the interest.

And let's look at Daniel's actions. He didn't use Aikido to gracefully sidestep Vala's punches: he punched back.

First of all, I don't know that Daniel knows Aikido. Myabe he should study it. (Maybe I'll put that on his New Year's Resolutions list. )

Secondly, if a man of Daniel's size and weight were to hit a woman full force, she would go flying across the room. She didn't even get her nose broken. He had to have been pulling his punches quite dramatically. (Not that I object to him hitting her.)

The minute he hesitated, he paid for it: Vala might have already learned this lesson. Daniel didn't hesitate to go Caveman and throw Vala over his shoulder when he needed her on the bridge.

This was a life-and-death situation. He needed her on the bridge, not yacking in the corridor.

And, come on, did he really *need* to undress her? Vala had already taken off the Supersoldier armor herself. Daniel just wanted Vala to wake up knowing he'd undressed her. That seems like a pretty sleazy tactic to me.

This part I don't understand and I don't have an explanation for it.

I did notice that he fed her, though.

And then there's the gratuitous zat. It's funny unless you start to wonder whether it always takes *two* to kill. Maybe some people have a lower tolerance for electrocution.

It *is* funny. It's also wrong. This is how cops get into trouble. And yes, we don't know for sure the full extent of the effect on the nervous system. It might be more dangerous than it looks. Unfortunately, the vey fact that it is non-lethal encourages people to use it more than is strictly necessary.

One of the things I especially liked about PU is that Daniel's personality became seem to become more irritable and snarky once he no longer had to keep up his professional facade for his colleagues.

I didn't see this. Daniel was up against an alien intruder trying to take over the Prometheus. He took military action against an enemy. He tried to talk his way out of captivity. His irritability seems to have been the result of being mistreated and I don't remember him being particularly snarky.

That tells me he's repressing quite a bit to maintain his reputation and get along peacably with what amounts to his family. The man needs an outlet. He needs to work through some anger. Vala makes him angry, which gives him an opportunity to work through it.

I really don't see a man "working through his anger." I see him fighting an enemy who has hijacked his ship.

Once Daniel was exhausted, I think he was open to anything.

He was?

I think the fight will still be out of his system when he sees Vala again. If she comes to ask for his help, I doubt bondage and slappage will be involved.

I don't think Vala wants to go hand-to-hand with Daniel again. She might zat him, if he gets in her way. Personally, I think she's liable to strand him in an isolated place without a way home. (He'll be angry about it next time they meet, and she'll be like, "What? Never mind about that. Listen to what i've got for you . . ." Then Daniel can either stick a cork in his frustration or miss out on the Find of the Century.)

I suppose my own bias is that I don't really believe in sickos. I believe people are represented as sickos. People are driven to sicko behavior. Sometimes the stars align in a particular way, and someone does something randomly sicko. I don't believe anyone on this earth is an inherent sicko, though. If someone manifests as a sicko, then there are a lot of other people in the picture who have all done something wrong. JMHO.

You don't believe in sickos, but you believe that Daniel is repressed? How does that work?

I believe that the terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" are overused. There are very few true sociopaths. But they do exist. The combination of aggression, lying, manipulation, torture, and sexually predatory behavior suggests to me that it is at least possible that Vala is pathological. Her behavior isn't randomly sicko, it is repeatedly and consistently aggressive, predatory and without evidence of conscience or remorse. The only exception I can find is that a lot of people are alive instead of dead, when it would have been easier for her to kill them. So that's something in her favor.

Maybe she's just the equivalent of a black ops agent. But then, I suspect some of those people don't have much conscience, either. Professional requirement.

[graculus]

How about torturing Daniel with that device?

She zapped him once, in the most innocuous place possible. I think it's equivalent of win Daniel zatted her later in the episode. If it's torture, it's torture with a very small "t". There are so many more heinous things she could have done.

Also, I just watched the fight scene again. Daniel tried to get in a second punch when he hit the wall. I think this needs to be seen as the equivalent of a male-male fight. They both seem to dump any gender issues early on.

Daniel knows Aikido.

Hey, it's *the* only martial art for a Peaceful Explorer. Don't you think Daniel probably learned self-defense before anything else?

He had to have been pulling his punches quite dramatically.

She was pulling her punches, too, if we look at the damage she *could* have done.

This was a life-and-death situation.

So, context does count...?

I did notice that he fed her, though.

I'm sure it was a date in some twisted Freudian sense...

This is how cops get into trouble.

That's exactly what I was thinking about!

His irritability seems to have been the result of being mistreated and I don't remember him being particularly snarky.

You're right - I was carrying over the impression of snarky from his initial response to Novak's hiccups. Which he made up for by his decent behavior in the elevator. But I still think Daniel wouldn't have done the head-pinching thing if the rest of the team had been there: he could have been beaten to a pulp, and he would have been trying to gut it out.

She might zat him, if he gets in her way.

And it seems Daniel set a precedent for gratuitous zatting.

Personally, I think she's liable to strand him in an isolated place without a way home. (He'll be angry about it next time they meet, and she'll be like, "What? Never mind about that. Listen to what i've got for you . . ." Then Daniel can either stick a cork in his frustration or miss out on the Find of the Century.)

ROTFL. I agree that Vala would do this. But that doesn't mean they aren't attracted to each other.

You don't believe in sickos, but you believe that Daniel is repressed? How does that work?

Sicko is a description of someone's character: it implies that a person always responds irrationally/violently - even when there are available "normal" options. I would argue that everyone's repressed to some extent. That's a function of group interaction and relationships. People don't always do what they want - they take into account other people. Sometimes they manage to convince themselves that what everyone else wants must be what they want. Psychology and socialization are funky that way.

There are very few true sociopaths. But they do exist. The combination of aggression, lying, manipulation, torture, and sexually predatory behavior suggests to me that it is at least possible that Vala is pathological.

If very few true sociopaths exist, isn't it possible that Vala is manifesting a learned response to her environment, reasonable in those terms? Even outright irrational behavior is a reflection/projection of an irrational situation - when there is no rational way to deal with it, the only thing left to do is express it. People who think it's okay to lie may have been punished repeatedly for telling the truth, or they've reached the end of their tolerance with everyone else lying around them. Noble self-abnegation can only be taken so far. I'd be willing to bet most people would start to compromise on their integrity once they were cornered into exile and starvation; and once your integrity breaks, anything becomes doable.

The only exception I can find is that a lot of people are alive instead of dead, when it would have been easier for her to kill them. So that's something in her favor.

I'm just sayin'...

I suspect some of those people don't have much conscience, either. Professional requirement.

I agree. We may have to take another look at Jack's past here, before we judge Vala...

Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

I honestly think it depends on the context. Let's use Aris Boch as the example. He's knocked Sam out before. In the Sequel, Sam is giving him trouble, threatening to mess up his plan, so he throws a right cross. In normal circumstances, Sam may return the favor. This time, however, Sam realizes their mutual danger, so she doesn't retaliate. To the viewer, it looks like she has just been abused.

Aris Boch has now behaved brutally. However, if he later explains the situation to Sam, and Sam understands/writes it off, the viewer may be willing to write it off as well. Healthy relationships belong in suburbia: offworld relationships are stressed by war and other extreme circumstances. I don't approve of anyone hitting each other. But I think if the adventure is written so the characters understand and forgive, then the viewer ends up understanding and forgiving right there with them.

Vala may have had good reason for stealing the ship -- reasons that seemed good to her anyway, and that Daniel might understand. But slapping, torturing, and sexually molesting him is something I don't think she's going to be able to explain.

I would say we know she will resort to lying, manipulation, and thievery. None of those things define her as a person.

OK, I concede that there may be more to Vala than we know about. but I still say that given a pattern of lying and manipulation, there is no good reason to take her word for anything. Especially on the subject of whether Daniel is attracted to her.

agree that the lies make it impossible to give her upfront credit, and there is something Alan Shorish about her diversion tactics. If she's a person who is unlikely to tell the truth, though, she still has a truth. You have to look and listen to try to figure out where that truth is. I think Daniel would be up to that challenge.

I agree with this,

If there is even a spark of good in her, Daniel will find it -- that is his gift. And in that case, he might, indeed be attracted to her.

But under present circumstances, it's hard to see why he would.

[graculus]

But slapping, torturing, and sexually molesting him is something I don't think she's going to be able to explain.

Are you sure you would be so shocked by this if she were a man? Come to think of it, how about Ba'all? He's a lot worse: he engaged in no-holds-barred torture. But I'd still be interested in seeing him humanized by a surprise soft spot. He doesn't have to "explain" anything: we just accept he's Ba'al. Vala is Vala. She resorts to violent and manipulative behavior that we accept, but don't necessarily like, in soldiers. Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel. It's not like we got a crotch shot.

a pattern of lying and manipulation, there is no good reason to take her word for anything.

ITA. And Daniel should be very, very wary around her, at least for the time being.

If there is even a spark of good in her, Daniel will find it -- that is his gift. And in that case, he might, indeed be attracted to her.

That's the Daniel that I fangirl!

And have some pity! Daniel's a workaholic. I'm under the impression he hasn't dated since his wife died. He's been either too busy or immaterial. He may be ready to consider some extreme possibilities just because she's there.

Later,
Graculus

[graculus]

Oooh - thought of another point. In the presence of a putative super-soldier, Daniel shot first: he didn't stop to ask any questions. He said that he had expected the shot to kill. He would have felt mighty bad if he had succeeded: and then pulled the mask off to discover a human being. Daniel's initial violent, murderous reaction was based on his experience with super-soldiers: in his experience, all they do is kill. In Vala's experience, perhaps nice "healthy" interactions have gotten her nowhere...

Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

Are you sure you would be so shocked by this if she were a man?

Shocked? Who says I'm shocked?

I just don't think there's anyway you can spin torture, abuse, and molestation to excuse them.

Come to think of it, how about Ba'all? He's a lot worse: he engaged in no-holds-barred torture. But I'd still be interested in seeing him humanized by a surprise soft spot. He doesn't have to "explain" anything: we just accept he's Ba'al.

Sure, fine. That wouldn't make him a good person. It wouldn't even make him an OK person.

Vala is Vala. She resorts to violent and manipulative behavior that we accept, but don't necessarily like, in soldiers. Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel. It's not like we got a crotch shot.

Wait -- wait a minute. Yes, violence and cunning are required of soldiers. No, sexual molestation is not. And saying "Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel," is like a rapist excusing his actions on the grounds that the victim "wanted it."

And have some pity! Daniel's a workaholic. I'm under the impression he hasn't dated since his wife died. He's been either too busy or immaterial. He may be ready to consider some extreme possibilities just because she's there.

In that case, he's wacked!

Pity?

How is getting involved with someone who will hurt him going to make him feel any better? Better he should go out and meet somone nice at the local coffeeshop, like Sam did. A woman like Vala, he doesn't need!

Later,
Graculus[/QUOTE]

[graculus]

I just don't think there's anyway you can spin torture, abuse, and molestation to excuse them.

Then there may be no excuse for Jack. He must have blown his entire entitlement to look for happiness by now...

by what she might have been reading in Daniel," is like a rapist excusing his actions on the grounds that the victim "wanted it."

That would depend on whether the person in question did indeed "want it". They aren't a victim if they're a willing participant.

I just noticed that Daniel starts the head-squishing thing after Vala goes through some rather suggestive poses. I'm still inclined to read that as sexual frustration.

In that case, he's wacked!

Well, Sam did say he had "issues" in Chimera, lol.

How is getting involved with someone who will hurt him going to make him feel any better?

I don't think Daniel sees himself as 'hurt" - that would make him a victim. He sees a challenge, a sparring meet, a person that it will take 100 years to understand, a woman than can lick him in a fair fight (when he wasn't tied up), a resourceful woman who can get out of all sorts of jams for herself. I think in female company, Vala would be regarded as doling out the hurt, but I'm still not sure this would be the case in male company. Daniel is now used to a culture of combat and probably a whole lot of horseplay. I'm sure he realized that he couldn't have gotten off lighter when Vala zapped him.

IMHO, the best way to test the "truth" of the situation as Daniel sees it would be to observe what he does. When they next meet, will Daniel hide behind the nearest tree, fearing she will hurt him again? My prediction is he will stand up to her, she will keep trying to get the best of him, and we will see how it plays out from there. I definitely can't picture Daniel as her victim, though.

Later,
Graculus

[Kalliope]

No sorry I have not seen it.

A last thing I want to say about this all. I have nothing against CB. And would Vala be more like Aeryn Sun in Farscape (were she was IMO a no-nonsens soldier type...agressive, brutal but honest and very proud and despite her peacekeeper training sometimes even caring) I would not be so much against the Daniel/Vala relationship!

Sometimes??? Have you seen "Farscape: Peacekeeper Wars" miniseries yet?

[Kalliope]

http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

The first post in this thread is very interesting and should be here

[Margaret]

She zapped him once, in the most innocuous place possible. I think it's equivalent of win Daniel zatted her later in the episode. If it's torture, it's torture with a very small "t". There are so many more heinous things she could have done.

Maybe there are. I think it's disturbing enough that she wanted to abuse him 'just a little bit.'

They both seem to dump any gender issues early on.

I suppose.

The interesting thing is how much *we're* discussing gender!

Hey, it's *the* only martial art for a Peaceful Explorer. Don't you think Daniel probably learned self-defense before anything else?

I wish he had, but I don't have any evidence for that. He wouldn't have gotten mauled by Jack in Broca Divide. He could have dispatched the big bully at Hadante.

This was a life and death situation.

So, context does count...?

Sure, it counts.

I'm sure it was a date in some twisted Freudian sense...

I heard that just about everything Freud taught turned out to be wrong.

Sicko is a description of someone's character: it implies that a person always responds irrationally/violently - even when there are available "normal" options.

This is true. It's not about what people do under exigency.

If very few true sociopaths exist, isn't it possible that Vala is manifesting a learned response to her environment, reasonable in those terms? Even outright irrational behavior is a reflection/projection of an irrational situation - when there is no rational way to deal with it, the only thing left to do is express it.

You seem to be describing the syndrome, rather than showing that it does not exist.

We don't know exactly what causes sociopathology. We're not even sure if it's a brain-based disease, the way schizophrenia is.

OK, for stealing the ship, Vala's actions could be rational. She says to Daniel, "Can I have the ship? No. OK, Discussion over." She knows he is not going to give her the ship and that negotiating for it would be fruitless. She's just going to take it. This is rational, reality-based thinking (even if it's not very nice.)

Slapping Daiel was not rational. He was tied to the chair, he wasn't a threat to her.

You say she might have been responding to her environment -- what environment? The environment on the Prometheus?

If she's responding to the environment somewhere else, then she's projecting that environment onto the Prometheus and responding to something that's not really there. That's irrational. It's irrational for her to punish Daniel for what someone else has done. She's not responding to any actual threat.

As for torturing him, I don't see what she expected to get out of that. Was she trying to get information? If so, then it was rational, if inneffectual.

And the sexual advances? As many have remarked, she seemed to be trying to throw Daniel off balance. Daniel was subjected to the mind-numbing, disorienting effects of the emotional roller-coaster ride that is sometimes use to try to "break" people being interogated. So maybe it was rational in a coldy calculated way. But Daniel (and most other people) thought she was just whacked.

[Margaret]

Then there may be no excuse for Jack. He must have blown his entire entitlement to look for happiness by now...

Well, let me put it this way -- if he hits Kerri, she should recognize that he's not good mate material.

That would depend on whether the person in question did indeed "want it". They aren't a victim if they're a willing participant.

Well, yes, the defination of rape is "without consent." But that doesn't give a rapist the right to read "consent" into the victim's body language. Even if the victim responds physically to sexual advances that doesn't mean he or she "wants" it. It means they're not in control of their bodily functions. It does not imply consent on any level, conscious or unsconscious,

Well, Sam did say he had "issues" in Chimera, lol.

Sure, but that interpretatiion of his dreams turned out to be completely wrong.

I don't think Daniel sees himself as 'hurt" - that would make him a victim. He sees a challenge, a sparring meet, a person that it will take 100 years to understand, a woman than can lick him in a fair fight (when he wasn't tied up), a resourceful woman who can get out of all sorts of jams for herself. I think in female company, Vala would be regarded as doling out the hurt, but I'm still not sure this would be the case in male company. Daniel is now used to a culture of combat and probably a whole lot of horseplay. I'm sure he realized that he couldn't have gotten off lighter when Vala zapped him.

You may choose to deny that Daniel is a victim, and Daniel may choose not to see himself as a victiom But the fact remains that he was a victim -- Vala did things to him against his will and without his consent. And as vulnerable and sad as it makes us feel to know that people can hurt us this way, for no reason, through no fault of our own, as scary as it is to know that we won't necessarily be able to stop it, this is the truth about what happened.

Daniel usually preferrs facing the truth to papering it over, so I believe he will have the courage to face what happened and to recognize that unless Vala's behavior changes drastically, any future encounters with her are likely to be abusive as wellt

IMHO, the best way to test the "truth" of the situation as Daniel sees it would be to observe what he does. When they next meet, will Daniel hide behind the nearest tree, fearing she will hurt him again? My prediction is he will stand up to her, she will keep trying to get the best of him, and we will see how it plays out from there. I definitely can't picture Daniel as her victim, though.

Well, I hope the experience doesn't shatter his self-confidence. Courage involves getting a handle on your fears, not lying to yourself about what actually happened. Daniel is a lot better off being honest about what happened, being wary of Vala, and not thinking of her behavior as a "game."

[dreamhunter]

Wait -- wait a minute. Yes, violence and cunning are required of soldiers. No, sexual molestation is not. And saying "Even the extent of sexual molestation needs to be tempered by what she might have been reading in Daniel," is like a rapist excusing his actions on the grounds that the victim "wanted it."

I have not seen this episode but reading all this about it makes me feeling sick! Are that Stargates wonderfull new heroes that will replace Jack O´Neill and Sam Carter: A bunch of molesters and rapists???? Now I understand why Richard Dean Anderson isn´t willingly to sign for another episode more! He was always very much engaged for human rights! That is also Stargates new direction. I hope Roland Emmerich has enough money to by the righs back from this people who own them now!

I´m bitterly disappointed and wished I had never buyed any Stargate DVD´s!

Jana

[Kalliope]

You REALLY should read the first message in this thread: http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=7141

[Kalliope]

Scapers love Vala, most of Gaters seem to hate her. Interesting...

[Dani347]

However, I'm also going by what I saw in Daniel. I think Daniel was stunned when he first saw her: not just because she proved not to be a Supersoldier, but also because she was an intriguing woman (pun intended). I think Daniel was slow to react to what Vala was asking after the "size matters" comment because she was hitting a nerve, and it was causing him to zone. I think when Daniel was tired of fighting, he let Vala kiss him twice before he realized how he "should" be reacting. I don't think the "fruitcake" line was said with conviction: it was more like he was desperately trying to find something to say to all the craziness. And I also think Daniel resorting to "head pinching" was in all likelyhood a symptom of sexual frustration.

What I saw was Daniel didn't know how to respond to Vala. You don't need to be attracted to be completely befuddled by someone who will use a Goa'uld weapon on you one second and the next make suggestive comments. He most likely was trying to play it safe. And, while he had some idea of how to respond to someone using violence, someone using sex in the same situation totally lost him. I'd say most of his slowness to react had nothing to do with him being attracted, but because Vala kept changing the rules. She's beating him up and then, with no warning, she starts kissing him. He's never met anyone like Vala, and he has to get his bearings. But, he has to keep getting them, because she never lets him reach any equillibrium. As far as the head pinching, all I saw was a sign of annoyance. Kind of like when someone is being a pest and you form your hands in the air like you're choking them.