Daniel Jackson/Vala Mal Doran Ship/Discussion/Appreciation Thread

[graculus]

but then she would be Aeryn Sun not Vala and that would be a bit more on the typecast side... I would be a bit ticked.

I strongly agree.

This would turn into a huge complaint from multiple sectors. Fandom would never hear the end of it.

Later,
Graculus

[Major Clanger]

Perhaps we could just be a little more careful with our use of language and so on - it's an interesting thread and subject, but I would hate to have to bury it down in the GateWorld basement with the spiders and woodlice.

Just a friendly reminder that we don't make negative comments about people here just because they watch/see things differently.

Thanks for your attention

Major Clanger
GateWorld Moderator

[Major Clanger]

Oh, and while I'm here: I'd love for some Daniel/Vala ship. A real grown up relationship, based on mutual attraction and someone willing to admit that s*x is involved.

Bliss!

[keshou]

Vala's certainly different and intriguing and sexy and I think she would be someone who could challenge Daniel. I also like that she's a recurring character - no ship stuff in every show or ship between team members.

But true love? Hmmm.....I doubt it. I see more of a flirtation/UST that never goes much further.

But hard to tell at this point. We've seen Vala's act - but is that really who she is?? I think it's going to be a lot of fun to see Daniel and Vala meet again and I look forward to her return.

BTW, I loved Farscape and I adore John/Aeryn and I hope they don't try and bring that type of relationship to Stargate (between Ben's character and Vala)

I think it would be much more interesting if Ben's character and Vala were enemies or barely tolerated each other. Still a lot of room for their natural chemistry to be show-cased without trying to recreate the Farscape pairing.

[graculus]

But true love? Hmmm.....I doubt it. I see more of a flirtation/UST that never goes much further.

My gut instinct is to agree with that. But I don't know everything that's going to happen on the show. The writer's may have some terrific vision of events - and romance might actually work in that vision. Think about it: Daniel's love for Shar'e plays an important role in the unfolding events of the Stargate universe. Romance doesn't have to be forced, superficial, external to the plot.

That said, most of the time onscreen romance does look forced or superficial: it wasn't part of the writer's vision. If the writers start trying to throw bones to Daniel/Vala fans, the ship probably won't come across as authentic. On the other hand, maybe the "5 episode arc" is something epic in scale. If Daniel can fall in love with Shar'e in a two hour movie, he can certainly get closer to Vala during a 5-episode arc.

Later,
Graculus

[valaCB]

Oh, and while I'm here: I'd love for some Daniel/Vala ship. A real grown up relationship, based on mutual attraction and someone willing to admit that s*x is involved.

Bliss!

im with you

[graculus]

I like to think that Stargate does a good job of maintaining s*x is implied when there's onscreen ship. It's when characters start waxing poetic that they get into trouble.

Later,
Graculus

[graculus]

Given the issues raised in the feminism OT thread, I was wondering what people thought of Caveman!Daniel carrying Vala to the bridge...

Later,
Graculus

[Dani347]

For myself, it's way too early to ship Vala/Daniel. I didn't see any UST or sparks or anything between them, because all the sex talk on Vala's part seemed to be nothing more than a way to distract him. I'm not one of those people who can start a ship for someones in the very first episode that they're together. That's not a slam against people who can, just that I can't. Because I need more than just chemistry, which can be seen in one episode. I need some indication that the characters have some kind of feeling beyond "he/she is attractive" to actually start shipping people.

And, lets not forget that when people shipped John and Aeryn, it was John and Aeryn, not BB and CB. And, I really hope the writers of Stargate realise this.

[Margaret]

Oooh, the debate is on!

Well, you're a good sport!

Does she provide an ego boost?

Is that what a significant other is for?

No -- no, I tried to think of all the reasons a man might be attracted to a woman who was clearly not good for him. Then I evaluated each one.

I agree that Daniel isn't going to be considering Vala's finer points while she's stomping on him, but I don't think their encounter says anything about her overall behavior. She is, technically, a pirate. She's pursuing a particular way of life, and she knows how to get her job done. This doesn't say anything about whether she's inherently a good or bad person. We would have to know more about her history and motives to make that call.

Oh, sure, Sir Walter Raleigh was a pirate, Sir Francis Drake was a pirate, John Paul Jones was a pirate. "The last of Barrett's privateers" was a pirate -- that's how he wound up on a Halifax pier. Vala might have perfectly patriotic reasons for stealing a vessel.

One thing she is not going to be able to explain away, however, is striking a man whose hands are tied. If you hit a man, that's assault. If you hit a man who is bound, that's abuse. There might be a good reason for the former, but there's no excuse for the latter. None.

Of course, gratuitously zatting someone falls in the same category . . .

Look, if Vala's behavior changes, I'd be willing to consider the pleasures of ship. You're right, she could be anyone -- we don't know. But as things stand now, there's reason to believe she's a sociopath. I can't think of any reason why Daniel would be even mildly attracted to her, and I don't want him in an abusive relationship with a sicko woman.

[graculus]

One thing she is not going to be able to explain away, however, is striking a man whose hands are tied. If you hit a man, that's assault. If you hit a man who is bound, that's abuse

Hmmm, I think Sir Walter Raleigh and/or Sir Francis Drake might have had absolutely know problem "encouraging" a Spanish prisoner this way. Hey, those guys dueled with pistols over snide remarks.

I agree that in a civilized society, striking a person is abuse. Striking a bound person is torture. U.S. society obviously has a problem holding onto it's claim to civilization in arenas of warfare, even when everyone is supposedly playing by the Geneva Convention. Out in Geneva Conventionless space, I'm not going to begin to imagine what Vala has been through and how she has come to conclude that slapping a bound prisoner around is the key to accomplishing her goals. She has the benefit of my doubt until she does something to prove she's inherently evil.

And let's look at Daniel's actions. He didn't use Aikido to gracefully sidestep Vala's punches: he punched back. The minute he hesitated, he paid for it: Vala might have already learned this lesson. Daniel didn't hesitate to go Caveman and throw Vala over his shoulder when he needed her on the bridge. And, come on, did he really *need* to undress her? Vala had already taken off the Supersoldier armor herself. Daniel just wanted Vala to wake up knowing he'd undressed her. That seems like a pretty sleazy tactic to me. And then there's the gratuitous zat. It's funny unless you start to wonder whether it always takes *two* to kill. Maybe some people have a lower tolerance for electrocution.

One of the things I especially liked about PU is that Daniel's personality became seem to become more irritable and snarky once he no longer had to keep up his professional facade for his colleagues. That tells me he's repressing quite a bit to maintain his reputation and get along peacably with what amounts to his family. The man needs an outlet. He needs to work through some anger. Vala makes him angry, which gives him an opportunity to work through it.

Once Daniel was exhausted, I think he was open to anything. I think the fight will still be out of his system when he sees Vala again. If she comes to ask for his help, I doubt bondage and slappage will be involved.

I suppose my own bias is that I don't really believe in sickos. I believe people are represented as sickos. People are driven to sicko behavior. Sometimes the stars align in a particular way, and someone does something randomly sicko. I don't believe anyone on this earth is an inherent sicko, though. If someone manifests as a sicko, then there are a lot of other people in the picture who have all done something wrong. JMHO.

Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

i think she is very alluring maybe Daniel think so too .

I don't think so. He said, "You're a fruitcake!"

maybe she makes his world shake and maybe he need some1 to shake his world, maybe he like it.

This is a possibility. Maybe after he got done being scared out of his mind, after he calmed down a bit, he looked back and said, "That was exhilerating! Now I know why Jack liked black ops!"

It's possible but it doesn't really sound like Daniel. He hasn't reacted this way to facing danger in past. In Enemies, for example, he was scared to death and at the end, he tried to shake it off, but he didn't look like he was getting a rush from it.

[graculus]

He said, "You're a fruitcake!"

Maybe this tipped Vala off to the fact he likes things that aren't easy to understand. The next logical step was a head butt!

He hasn't reacted this way to facing danger in past. In Enemies, for example, he was scared to death and at the end, he tried to shake it off, but he didn't look like he was getting a rush from it.

Daniel's evolved a lot over the years. By Fallen, he found "constant peril" rather stimulating.

Later,
Graculus

[Margaret]

The debate continues...



There's no evidence for this. The fighting was brutal because the prize was extremely valuable. Vala is probably used to encountering resistance when she wants to sieze a ship. She's a small woman who has learned to make the best of what she's got.

I would turn this around and ask whether Aris Boch would engage in a sado-masochistic relationship with Sam if they had become attracted to each other in the course of liberating Boch's people.

I would turn this around and ask if a man treated a woman this way, and if she found herself attracted to him, would this sound like the basis for a healthy relationship?

Perhaps he didn't enjoy the right cross, but Vala pointed out that he was physically responding to the flirtation.

I would be hard-pressed to point to one single thing Vala has said that we know to be true. On the other hand, we do know that she is a liar, a manipulator and a thief. Just because she said something, doesn't make it true. Allen Shore says that sort of thing all the time on Boston Legal. He says it to get a rise out of people, especially when someone is dressing him down for his bad behavior. It takes the focus off his bad behavior and embarasses the other person, insstead.

[graculus]

I would turn this around and ask if a man treated a woman this way, and if she found herself attracted to him, would this sound like the basis for a healthy relationship?

I honestly think it depends on the context. Let's use Aris Boch as the example. He's knocked Sam out before. In the Sequel, Sam is giving him trouble, threatening to mess up his plan, so he throws a right cross. In normal circumstances, Sam may return the favor. This time, however, Sam realizes their mutual danger, so she doesn't retaliate. To the viewer, it looks like she has just been abused.

Aris Boch has now behaved brutally. However, if he later explains the situation to Sam, and Sam understands/writes it off, the viewer may be willing to write it off as well. Healthy relationships belong in suburbia: offworld relationships are stressed by war and other extreme circumstances. I don't approve of anyone hitting each other. But I think if the adventure is written so the characters understand and forgive, then the viewer ends up understanding and forgiving right there with them.

we do know that she is a liar, a manipulator and a thief.

I would say we know she will resort to lying, manipulation, and thievery. None of those things define her as a person. I agree that the lies make it impossible to give her upfront credit, and there is something Alan Shorish about her diversion tactics. If she's a person who is unlikely to tell the truth, though, she still has a truth. You have to look and listen to try to figure out where that truth is. I think Daniel would be up to that challenge.

However, I'm also going by what I saw in Daniel. I think Daniel was stunned when he first saw her: not just because she proved not to be a Supersoldier, but also because she was an intriguing woman (pun intended). I think Daniel was slow to react to what Vala was asking after the "size matters" comment because she was hitting a nerve, and it was causing him to zone. I think when Daniel was tired of fighting, he let Vala kiss him twice before he realized how he "should" be reacting. I don't think the "fruitcake" line was said with conviction: it was more like he was desperately trying to find something to say to all the craziness. And I also think Daniel resorting to "head pinching" was in all likelyhood a symptom of sexual frustration.

Is Vala good for Daniel? Probably not.
Was Daniel attracted? I think, yes.
Is Daniel confused about how he feels: yes.
Is Vala genuinely attracted to Daniel: I think, yes. But not enough to get in the way of her business goals. But I think the attraction would grow and the business decisions would recede as she got to know him.

Later,
Graculus