Citizen Joe (815)

[Watters87]

Great episode. Season 8 just keeps getting better and better. Dan Castellaneta did an excellent job as Joe. An excellent scene is where Joe is slouching on the couch and you hear and see the flashbacks.

[Full Alert and Threads]

Spoiler:

Have they changed Kerry's job from being in the SGC Oversight Committee to her working in the CIA because Jack at the beginning says he has meeting with a Johnson person about Kinsey.

[Stargate Agent]

This was a great episode but one thing stood out as something why the show is suffering.

In the episode Joe's wife says "the team interaction isn't what it used to be " THAT pretty much describes season 8 thus far. Offworld missions are very few and far between!!!

The storys are thus getting weaker and weaker!!!!!!!

This was a good episode tho...

[Ace]

I wonder what the range is on those Ancient Long Range Communicators? I.E. the stones... If it's Galaxies, which I suppose it could be because it's all having to do with the mind and the subconscious, they should take one of the stones to Atlantis.

Atlantis and the SGC could be in constant communication as long as they wrote down what they needed to say. I think the way Daniel explained it, was that it could communicate it through feelings and emotions, right? Not sure, I'll have to go and take a second look.

But that would sure come in handy! Talk about stumbling across some valuable piece of technology...looks like the SGC achieved thier standing orders alot earlier than we thought they did.

Ace

[Brassguy]

poor martin!

Wormhole X-Treme got cancelled after the first episode!

And if this Joe guy viewed all jack's mission reports and images of the missions, why nothing about martin loyd, etc.


Martin is kind similar to Joe in many ways. Only Joe is no alien.

Joe thinks that someone ripped HIM off, lol.

What is Martin doing now then? He stayed to be with the tv show, but they tell us that it was soon cancelled.

[EllieVee]

I thought a lot of it was very funny. The mockery of fans was very gentle, particularly the team interaction comment. I didn't have a problem with Jack having visions. My problem with it comes at the end when Jack meets Joe's wife (whose name escapes me for the moment). From what Jack says I think we're expected to believe that she gets told that it's all true. It's the same problem I had with Pete being told about the program. Whatever happened to everything being such a secret? Are they going to confirm the program exists with everyone who accidentally comes across it from now on as a way of breaking it to the public quietly?

[Buzz Lightyear]

Good point, but flawed. Since Joe didn't always know how the "story" ended, it seems more likely he was experiencing it in real-time.

Real-time? Highly unlikely. Missions often took many hours, if not days to complete. If Joe experienced the missions in real time, he'd become positively catatonic. OTOH, it takes a much shorter time to write a nice concise report. Remember that Jack is only writing his reports from his own perspective and he might not actually know all the details himself.

[Mr. Seven]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry, I just can't stop laughing. This show was hilarious.

"Don't get me wrong, Jonas is a good guy, but..."

"If you ever need me in the weapons chair in Antartica..I'm there!"

This was great. Not only the lines, but the wardrobe changes of Joe. When he starts to spiral down a bit, he goes into the wife beater t-shirt under his unbottoned shirt. Then finally to just the beater.

Oh man I have to watch this again and go to the best parts.

[kashi]

If the device only worked when they were in proximity of it, that means that he would have seen O'neill writing mission reports, not actually visions of the events as they occured. Major plot flaw. I'm very disappointed with this episode.

[Albion]

While he could have known Jack's feelings when he was sitting over his reports, he couldn't have known about "the whole Pete Shanahan thing",

I was thinking this yesterday, but then I realised that he would have. Jack would certainly have mentioned Pete and his relationship to Sam in his report on the Orisis incident in Chimera. As for Tealc's 'colour change', it would depend what caused it. "Spoke to the medical staff today about Teal'c's 'condition'. They assure me this skin pigmation change is perfectly normal for a Jaffa of Teal'c's age...." Even if that one didn't appear in a Jack report, Joe was clearly also getting a visual - he knew what Jack looked like right from the start and asked the Air Force officer on the phone to describe him to see if the description matched his vision. So asking Teal'c about his colour seems naturally more to do with having seen him over the years, than anything written about him.

Actually, I think we're getting the wrong end of the stick here. I believe (would have to recheck the episode, but pretty sure I'm right here) that the fact that Joe was taking information from Jack's reports was only relevent to explaining how Joe knew about Jack's offworld exploits, away from the base and the stone. It wasn't intended to be a full explanation of Joe's visions, simply the offworld element. Obviously, Joe was also able to access Jack's thoughts and emotions. Which makes sense since we're talking about a psychic link. This is proven because Joe knew that Jack has a thing for fishing, Mary Steenbergen, and the colour peridot - hardly things Jack would be putting in his reports. Also that Joe was able to write fictional narrative into his stories which also wouldn't be in military reports - what Jack was feeling when he left Laira for example. Joe could have been speculating there, but it's more likely he got that information direct from Jack's brain. So I think it would be a mistake to assume that the only information source for Joe was what Jack wrote down in his reports. Obviously it was a combination of reports and Jack's thoughts and feelings that went into making Joe's visions.

This could also explain the seeming discrepency re. the battle in Antartica. That didn't happen offworld, but right here on earth. So perhaps that time, Joe was getting the information directly from Jack's thoughts and feelings, in real time. Of course, there's still the proximity thing - it's unlikely Jack took the stone with him when he went to Antarctica. But maybe that can be explained by the psychic link between Jack and Joe strenghtening as time and years went by and they both grew familiar with the other's brain patterns. Perhaps as the years went by that link grew stronger naturally, meaning that the stone was less and less necessary as a conduit. Enabling Joe to sense Jack over a greater distance than he'd been able to at the start of the link.

One neat detail I liked, btw, was Joe's first vision not being from the Pilot. It would have been way too co-incidental that Joe picked up the stone at exactly the same moment Jack was recalled to duty.

What was with that telephone thing at the beginning? Remember Cassie's birthday in "Rite of Passage": Sam had to *buy* a cake instead of baking it herself, but now she knows the housewive's secret ingredient for omelettes? I couldn't believe it...

I'm not sure I understand your point here. You mean that Sam knew Jack's 'secret ingredient' was beer? That doesn't make her a cooking expert. It makes her a Jack expert. She knows this guy backwards, including his love of beer. <g> So I don't find that particularly odd.

Christine, the 'something' in your quote of the telephone conversation is 'handful'. 'A handful of ingredients'. (Having played this scene endlessly for two days with a big goofy smile on my face, I know it back to front )

Spoiler:

Have they changed Kerry's job from being in the SGC Oversight Committee to her working in the CIA because Jack at the beginning says he has meeting with a Johnson person about Kinsey.

Don't know about that, but I didn't pick up on this reference. If it's a reference to Kerry - cute! I have my doubts it is though. Jack's talking about meeting this Johnson person on Monday morning. Threads is three weeks away. It would be a heck of a long time to Monday. So I suspect it's just a case of them using the same name.

Albion

[ElanaM]

Will those two Ancient stone devices play a future role? Will Joe or the naturally-occurring Ancient gene have any importance now that [Atlantis spoiler]

Spoiler:

we have the ability to give some people the gene artificially?

......

I know some have said that the plot did not advance but I saw a couple of things which have an impact later:

a

Spoiler:

as mentioned, Jack referring to meeting 'Johnson' on the Monday - Kerry Johnson;

b

Spoiler:

the fact that the stone Joe bought was found in Egypt and we know they go to Egypt looking for a ZPM in Mobeius. To me, they are taking a gamble that if one piece of Ancient technology was around in ancient times then there could be more on Earth just waiting to be uncovered.

.

[Albion]

Spoiler:

As I say, I think the episode timeline is hinky for it to have been a reference to Kerry Johnson. But it would definitely be a cute moment if it was. Jack all 'Geez, I have this dang meeting with Johnson, wish I could get out of that...' mode, is amusing given the viewers have foreknowledge of his future relationship with 'Johnson' and Jack doesn't. Would be a cute little detail there.

Albion

[Mr. Seven]

SPOILERS RDA said something about a CIA Agent in Stargate: Behind the Gate Lowdown. He said-----
HIGH LIGHT BELOW TO READ

That they are going to show that Jack has been sleeping with a CIA Agent...

[animoid]

So I think it would be a mistake to assume that the only information source for Joe was what Jack wrote down in his reports. Obviously it was a combination of reports and Jack's thoughts and feelings that went into making Joe's visions.
[...] But maybe that can be explained by the psychic link between Jack and Joe strenghtening as time and years went by and they both grew familiar with the other's brain patterns.

Sounds right to me. But still...I don't want to nitpick too much (because I rather like how the episode works regarding the link), but theoretically Jack should have had visions about Joe's various activities regarding his writing/the magazines, his attempts to contact Air Force, his troubled marriage...

This is why I found it odd when Jack admitted that he had visions for 7 years. Yes, about a barber in Indiana, but not a *normal* barber.

One neat detail I liked, btw, was Joe's first vision not being from the Pilot. It would have been way too co-incidental that Joe picked up the stone at exactly the same moment Jack was recalled to duty.

This was explained. Jack touched the stone in Daniel's office after returning from the mission where they found the quantum mirror. By touching it, he activated "his side" of the link. Even if Joe had picked up the stone around the time of the Pilot, he wouldn't have seen any visions because there wasn't anyone (yet) with an ancient gene to activate the other one.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. You mean that Sam knew Jack's 'secret ingredient' was beer? That doesn't make her a cooking expert. It makes her a Jack expert. She knows this guy backwards, including his love of beer.

Probably. I will put it another way then: the beer thing was so obvious that Sam doesn't even have to know the slightest bit about cooking to figure it out. Satisfied?

[saxamoophone]

As far as Jack being "dumb" for not knowing Joe....if you look back at the episode, when he says "I'm Joe, a barber" jack has this expression that its' all starting to make sense (the dreams that is).

But keep in mind, if this is a device made by the ancients, it's very possible it was up to the user to control the device, hence, jack probably only saw the visions when he wanted to (so it's not like he was dreaming about joe all the time)

[MajorSam]

k. I don't know if this has already been said, but if the Stargate program ever came out, wouldn't there be a massive problem!? They would have to get rid of ALL of Joe's written work, convince him not to tell ANYONE about it all. But then there's everyone he told. All of the people in his town (especially the hair salon people) All of the magazines and everyone taht he sent too (what, over 400 letters etc. he sent?) Especially with Joe going on about it being real the whole time, if they found out it WAS real...

Sure if the program went public people would find out a lot more, but all the specific mission reports and stuff would definately be classified...