How did the Wraith Originate?

[expendable_crewman]

... But does anyone think its possible that the Ancients deliberately created the Wraith as a weapon to use against a race that they were at war with. Then when the Wraith rebelled, that is why the Ancients then created the Replicators.

I just cant believe that the Wraith were created by some sort of biological accident.

I never thought of it, which makes / made the idea of the Ancients intentionally creating the Wraith a potentially good twist.

Would have been a good twist to see in season six (or four), now that I think about it.

What I like about the idea is the really big stuff about the Wraith that we were never told, for me, kind of leaves a crack in the door for this sort of twist to dance through.

I swallow the "Irartus bug was there first, the humans arrived, got fed on, and the Iratus evolved " thing. It is just about all we know but it is not enough for me.

If there were 100 people on a planet affected by Iratus predation, if there were 1,000 people, or a million people, and the people had a Stargate, after a while they ought to have realized they were losing too many people to the bugs and moved on to greener pastures. Or a safer planet. In the travel brochure for the infected planet, you would read, "Nice fields, great vista from the mountains, but the bugs bite you to death."

Even if the human population was hearty enough to stick around during the first stage of the predation, it tickles me to think that settlers with an exit point would hang tough for the terrifying events that followed, the Iratus-human beasts in their various forms. A million years of incidents, every thousand years it gets worse, and there's a Stargate in the valley.

I picture the traders coming in every once in a while and a local asking, "Hey, do you have deadly bugs on your planet?"

And the traders goes, "No, why?"

Who'd even want to trade on an Iratus planet?

If the Stargate was in space and the people had no ships, then the people would have been trapped; and so would the evolving creatures. If the people, Iratus, and eventually the Wraith were world-bound, there's the problem (story-wise) of making me believe the Wraith evolved over millions of years with a dwindling number of survivors and animals to feed upon ... just to reach a place where they start thinking about the technology needed to fly away and go get some more food. Technology they'd have to develop from scratch, or starting at whatever farm tools their human prey had lying around. Wraith technology seems, to me, very different from Ancient technology.

If it turns out that a device initiated, manipulated, or boosted the evolution of Wraith and their technology, I'd be happy. It would mean that the Ancients had a really old foe for whom a silver bullet was made using the kind of technology Wraith use and attributes unique to Wraith ... that's not only cool but, for me, fun to imagine. For some reason, lol, I've got the aliens in the District 9 trailer in my head.

[2ndgenerationalteran]

But does anyone think its possible that the Ancients deliberately created the Wraith as a weapon to use against a race that they were at war with. Then when the Wraith rebelled, that is why the Ancients then created the Replicators.

Everything in nature is a biological "accident" in some way, but the idea that the Ancients created them is quite absurd. They would need a way to control them and offering human planets as rewards is not very Ancient like. They also didn't create the replicators, they created a nanovirus which "accidentally" formed the replicators we know, creating a race was not their plan.

We know human civilization evolved to a fairly high technological point (ex. the Athosians and Dorandans). It makes sense that the Iratus bug was used to the native food source but since humans were not native to the Pegasus galaxy the mutations in the iratus young would have taken more human likeness.

But another theory is there was one kinky Ancient that took his/her work a little too far

[dasNdanger]

interesting theory

do you think the wraith started kulling before, during or after the war with the Ancients.

also what about their technology.

Somewhere (maybe on Joe Mallozzi's blog??) the suggestion was made that the Ancients left technology with the humans on the planets they seeded. When the Wraith started to develop humanoid characteristics (including language, which is said to be related to the Ancient language), they began to understand and use the Ancient tech, adapting what they could to their own organic technology (we've seen glimpses of this sort of adaptation with Michael, and in Vegas).

I think Wraith were culling a little before the war with the Ancients, but nothing like they had to do afterwards. Once they started cloning warriors, their numbers grew too fast and culling became more frequent. The Wraith in The Defiant One captained a 'supply ship' during the war, the supplies, being - of course - humans for consumption. Humans - we can assume - that had been culled from a planet, as opposed to individually hunted down or captured. After the war, they had to hibernate in between cullings because there wasn't enough food to go around otherwise (this is vaguely referred to by the Wraith in Condemned).


das

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

<snip>
2. After the Ancients arrrived, they seeded planets with human life. This would include seeding the planet or planets on which the Iratus bug lived. When seeding such planets, it is assumed that the Ancients left humans with a certain amount of technology to help develop their young societies.

3. Over time, these human settlements were left to develop on their own, without any supervision from the Ancients. Basically, the Ancients were what we could call absentee parents who did not stand by to make sure their children grew up okay.

4. On the planet or planets on which the Iratus lived, humans began falling prey to the insect. This would logically include those humans who had originally been sent to settle the planet, but also any humans who eventually travelled to the planet through the gates, or through space travel. At this early stage, Iratus bugs fed on both
<snip>

Your theory is well-thought out, and having done exhaustive specuation of my own in matters pertaining to the Ancients, I want you to know that I appreciate and respect your efforts.

However, with regard to the passages of yours that I've quoted, I've always had a few problems with the idea that the Ancients used the Dakara device in Pegasus at all, especially to create a lower species of humans (like us), The Ancients after all, were humans themselves--albeit on a slightly higher evolutionary plane. They created the stargate system in Pegasus primarily for their own use, and they used the gates (and ships) to seed the galaxy by dispersing themselves to its thousands habitable of worlds. Why then would they create a lower form of human to do the same? I simply don't agree that the Ancients were just guardians of the galaxy or "absentee parents". As I see it they were the explorers and colonizers of Pegasus.

If I am correct however, it would leave us with the question as to where the Athosians and the Genii came from. I've speculated previously that with the Ancients dispersing to thousand of worlds throughout Pegasus over millions of years, that these and other like races may have been offshoots of the Ancients, but over those millions of years became isolated civilizations and over time, lost the gene unique to the Ancients.

Also, I was always of the opinion that the Wraith came about out the combining of Iratus DNA and Ancients' DNA, not DNA from a sub-species of human created by the Ancients.

Your theory could be correct of course, and my ideas could certainly be wrong. I agree with many of the other points you made.

All the best.

[Supreme Commander Sil]

Everything in nature is a biological "accident" in some way...

I actually disagree with this theory, you can't say that a cow's digestive system was a freak "accident" of "nature", however, this is not the place to go into this.....

I'm no accident! !

[LiquidSky]

It has been established by TPTB that the Wraith evolved from the Iratus bug but, I have my theories on how the Wraith became as they are now which don't wash with TPTB. Like the Ancients experiments with DNA manipulations of the Iratus bug. So, they can prolong life and can have remarkable healing abilities. That's just my theory.

LS

[dasNdanger]

Your theory is well-thought out, and having done exhaustive specuation of my own in matters pertaining to the Ancients, I want you to know that I appreciate and respect your efforts.

However, with regard to the passages of yours that I've quoted, I've always had a few problems with the idea that the Ancients used the Dakara device in Pegasus at all, especially to create a lower species of humans (like us), The Ancients after all, were humans themselves--albeit on a slightly higher evolutionary plane. They created the stargate system in Pegasus primarily for their own use, and they used the gates (and ships) to seed the galaxy by dispersing themselves to its thousands habitable of worlds. Why then would they create a lower form of human to do the same? I simply don't agree that the Ancients were just guardians of the galaxy or "absentee parents". As I see it they were the explorers and colonizers of Pegaus.

If I am correct however, it would leave us with the question as to where the Athosians and the Genii came from. I've speculated previously that with the Ancients dispersing to thousand of worlds throughout Pegasus over millions of years, that these and other like races may have been offshoots of the Ancients, but over those millions of years became isolated civilizations and over time, lost the gene unique to the Ancients.

Also, I was always of the opinion that the Wraith came about out the combining of Iratus DNA and Ancients' DNA, not DNA from a sub-species of human created by the Ancients.

Your theory could be correct of course, and my ideas could certainly be wrong. I agree with many of the other points you made.

All the best.

But that's what I mean. I don't know what the 'Dakara' device is - is that from SG1??? I never watched SG1.

I based my comments on what I know from Atlantis, so when I say that the Ancients 'seeded' planets, I meant that they did so with fellow Ancients (unless I've missed something from the first couple seasons of Atlantis).

I've always thought that the Ancients colonized - or 'seeded' - the Pegasus themselves, but the LANTEANS - the ones who remained in the city with the most advanced technology, etc. never bothered to check up on those colonies until it was too late. I've always been under the impression that the ones who remained in Atlantis were the 'leaders', and while the adventurous sorts went out to colonize unknown worlds, the Lanteans just sat back and indulged in expanding their minds, oblvious to what was happening to their colonies.

Hope that clears things up.

das

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

But that's what I mean. I don't know what the 'Dakara' device is - is that from SG1??? I never watched SG1.

Sorry, I should not have attributed the "Dakara device" comment to you. I meant to also multi-quote yours and Puddle-Jumper's a few posts ahead of yours, but in organizing my post, I mistakenly left his out. It was he, not you, who said:

I was under the impression that the ancients used something similar to the Dakara device (maybe it was destroyed during the war or perhaps they used the dakara device to do it, with ZPMs and their understanding of the gate it could well be possible.) after they got to pegasus to seed human life throughout the galaxy, they didn't know about the iratus bug which evolved along with humans to produce the wraith... the dakara device may have sped up the evolution process for all parties so the wraith would have evolved quicker...

The Dakara device was used by the Ancients in the Milky Way, as a result of the plague, to purge and then reseed life in there. It was also used by the Tau'ri to destroy the Replicators. How many other times it may have been used by the Ancients is unknown. But I don't see any reason why they would use it in Pegasus since, as I've previously said, the Ancients themselves were the colonizers of that galaxy.

I based my comments on what I know from Atlantis, so when I say that the Ancients 'seeded' planets, I meant that they did so with fellow Ancients (unless I've missed something from the first couple seasons of Atlantis).

I've always thought that the Ancients colonized - or 'seeded' - the Pegasus themselves, but the LANTEANS - the ones who remained in the city with the most advanced technology, etc. never bothered to check up on those colonies until it was too late. I've always been under the impression that the ones who remained in Atlantis were the 'leaders', and while the adventurous sorts went out to colonize unknown worlds, the Lanteans just sat back and indulged in expanding their minds, oblvious to what was happening to their colonies.

Hope that clears things up.

das

Yes, that clears things up. And you've made some interesting and good additional points as well differentiating between the Lanteans and their colonies.

[Puddle-Jumper]

I actually disagree with this theory, you can't say that a cow's digestive system was a freak "accident" of "nature", however, this is not the place to go into this.....

I'm no accident! !

As a keen biology student in Irelands leading university I would beg to differ,

But the ancients had to use something similar to the dakara device in Pegasus, thats the only way that there could be human life in Pegasus...

[kymeric]

I wouldnt mind a single lone Ancient creating the wraith by accident or maliciously. Wouldnt be the first time one of their experiements bit them on the arse. Maybe a ancient scientist trying to improve their form and healing powers by adding the aratus healing and instead of saving the ancients, he dooms them.

But from the description on the show, and michaels uberwraith it seems if a Aratus queen feeds on a human then lays eggs theres alot of human dna in it. Bugs lay a bazillion eggs at a time so the odds of a viable mutant surviving is way higher than with humans which only give birth to 1 or 2 offspring at a time (unless youre octo mom).

Is 10,000+ years long enough for fossils to form, cuz there should be lots of prewraith spider people who didnt survive. I would love to see more wraith history because there was a time they were equivilant to humans or even more primitive. It would be cool to see armies of wraith with swords and sheilds fighting human armies with guns and overwhelming them (braveheart with wraith and general people eating?). The wraith would progress alot faster technologically with telepathy and a hive social structure. Eventually they would figure out the stargates and start using them. They kinda need alot of humans, feeding 2-3 times a year to survive, while it takes humans many years to get to adulthood, and i assume maxium deliciousness.

Wraith language and computer coding is based on Ancient, so clearly at some point they got ahold of some ancient technology. Did the Ancients try to help them and get burned? Did they take ancient technology by force, or find it lying around. Maybe the wraith over ran the advanced human civilizations like the Genii Confederations, improved on their tech then attacked the ancients?

There is soo much to still cover.

[Professor D.H.D. Puddlejumper]

But the ancients had to use something similar to the dakara device in Pegasus, thats the only way that there could be human life in Pegasus...

I have to disagree, as I have already argued in post #19
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....6&postcount=19
and post #23
http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....6&postcount=23

What I'm essentially saying is that the Ancients themselves were the human life in Pegasus, having migrated there from the Milky Way.

Is 10,000+ years long enough for fossils to form, <snip>

According to this from Wikipedia it is.

Such a preserved specimen is called a "fossil" if it is older than some minimum age, most often the arbitrary date of 10,000 years ago.[1] Hence, fossils range in age from the youngest at the start of the Holocene Epoch to the oldest from the Archaean Eon several billion years old.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

[Bhousden]

I was under the impression that the ancients used something similar to the Dakara device (maybe it was destroyed during the war or perhaps they used the dakara device to do it, with ZPMs and their understanding of the gate it could well be possible.) after they got to pegasus to seed human life throughout the galaxy, they didn't know about the iratus bug which evolved along with humans to produce the wraith... the dakara device may have sped up the evolution process for all parties so the wraith would have evolved quicker...

The Darkara device destroys all life on a planet it's used on in favor of it's new matrix. Just like the Genesis device does.

[garhkal]

dont forget they had a few million years to evolve from insects and ancients. if the ancients were at war with someone else and created the wraith, then who were they at war with, they were so badly decimated by the plague that a war would have seriously screwed them over.

But who were they at war with? The ori? If that's the case, why didn't the Ori know about the Milkey way or Pegasus TILL daniel visit via those comm stones?

interesting theory

do you think the wraith started kulling before, during or after the war with the Ancients.

also what about their technology.

I would say that as they started taking over planets, they started scavenging tech much like the Gou'ald, but eventually achieved a level of innovation that they created their own stuff. And once their #s got big enough they started the culling process. And they figured out, possibly from trial and error, that "hey if we cull all the humans here, there is no longer food for us.. WE will need to 'selectively farm' the areas, if we wish to keep our food supply long term.

Also, I was always of the opinion that the Wraith came about out the combining of Iratus DNA and Ancients' DNA, not DNA from a sub-species of human created by the Ancients.

Your theory could be correct of course, and my ideas could certainly be wrong. I agree with many of the other points you made.

BUt then why can't wraith use the ancient tech that needs the ATA gene?? Shouldn't they still have some vestiges of ancient dna in their system, much like Jack and John??

[LD5050]

To chime in on an 8-year dead thread revival, anyone remember how in s2e5 the wraith indicated that his species used to eat food? If they evolved from the bugs that have always fed upon other creatures' lifeforce, when would his ancestors (lol) have ever been sustained from 'traditional' food?

MAGISTRATE: I must admit, I still find it intriguing to watch you eat actual food.

WRAITH: Our lineage may have diverged, but there are those of us who still retain an appreciation for finer things.

[Bhousden]

To chime in on an 8-year dead thread revival, anyone remember how in s2e5 the wraith indicated that his species used to eat food? If they evolved from the bugs that have always fed upon other creatures' lifeforce, when would his ancestors (lol) have ever been sustained from 'traditional' food?

MAGISTRATE: I must admit, I still find it intriguing to watch you eat actual food.

WRAITH: Our lineage may have diverged, but there are those of us who still retain an appreciation for finer things.

What you have to remember is the wraith may have come from the iratus bug, but that was the result of iratus dna mixing with human dna. So they would have common lineage still left from the ancestors of the first humans to come in contact with the bugs.