Megathread - Versus battles

[boberth2o]

Now we know that the Ori have superior fire power, and the Wraith have there strength in numbers,
The Wraith are a hybrid species, part ancient and part that bug that attached to Sheppard's neck, so the wraith are techniqiuly an ancients but evolved, so the technology they have is a derivative of ancient so if they were to take on the ori toilet warships the hives stand a chance.
The x-304 can with stand quite alot of hits from the hives fire. Compared to the Ori, the hives could most likely win there's no doubt about it. 3 Ori ships against oh 50 hive ships. No problem for the Wraith

[Ouroboros]

The whole thing with the Dakara mountain (especially when taken alongside with how the Ori platform killed the Prometheus) makes it look like the main reason Ori weapons seem so uber is because they're very effective against shields.

Since Goa'uld, Earth and Asguard ships rely mostly on shields for protection (as opposed to extra heavy armour) the Ori weapon is the perfect tool to destroy them.

Wraith ships are the exact opposite though. They don't have shields and seem to rely entirely on piling on huge amounts of armour for protection. The Ori weapon is not going to be as dramtically effective against them because, while it's great on shields, it doesn't seem so hot against armour/rock etc.

A Wraith ship has more in common with an inert solid object like the Dakara mountain than it does with an actively shielded ship like a 304 or Ha'tak.



I've been wondering about the whole idea of the Ori controlling a Galaxy to.

Didn't Vala at one point say that there was something like "hundreds of villages on dozens of worlds" under Ori control. In other words far from an entire galaxy.

They talk about "the Ori galaxy" all the time on the show but that doesn't really automatically mean they control the whole thing, just that it's their galaxy in the sense that they're located there.

We don't know who would win becuase we don't know enough about both sides. One things for sure though. The Wraith an Ori are definately the two most powerful factions left, with each other being their only real potentially equal adversaries.

[Schrodinger82]

It would take quite a few shots from the ori canon to destroy a hive, it takes multiple to shops to destroy a couple hundred foot of mountain much less several kilometres of hive ship which has thick incredably hard armor...

Your assumption is that a hive ship would be harder to destroy than several thousand feet worth of solid rock, when we have nothing to indicate that being true. For one thing, there's the fact that the mountain is solid, where as the hive ship is not.

The last time I checked, I have yet to see a mountain that would sustain the following damage from a few blocks of C4, with no indication of being placed on strategic targets.

http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/102x464.html

[Ouroboros]

Here's some pics of the Dakara mountain getting blown up. It's actually smaller than I remembered it being. You can see it's not really anything special by the shots of it coming apart to, mostly just dirt and rocks.







That beam hitting it also doesn't kill Bra'tac and Landrey despite their close proximity, even when the mountain explodes. This puts some pretty hard limits on the amount of energy that was actually released here.

It's no where near as much as you'd get if you set a nuke off up there that's for sure, let alone a naquada enhanced nuke.

By contrast we've seen Wraith ships take a contact hit from one of the Daedalus' nuclear missiles and survive. If you used that same missile on the mountain here you wouldn't even be able to ID Bra'Tac and Landrey with DNA evidence afterward.

So what does that tell us.

Well in a nutshell the Wraith hulls have taken a hell of a lot more energy than this beam apparently pumps out already, and they've survived it. Thus, unless something wacky happens, this beam, which is apparently weaker vs normal dense materials than shields, shouldn't pose any significantly serious threat to Wraith ships, which are large flying bricks of dense armour.

[PG15]

I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.

For example, the Ancient satellite cut right through a Hive, but most of the rest of the ship was virtually undamaged (until it blew up, of course).

If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.

Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).

[Mister Oragahn]

City ships are the largest mega capital ships in the universe ATM(that we know of, of course.)

Well, just because we call it a city? Wraith hiveships, which by all definitions fit the definition of a city in space, are almost 11 km long, while the Lantean city is like 3.5 km large.
The Gadmeer terraforming ship is even larger than Atlantis.

If the Ori main weapon is purely shield piercing, then it's going to be almost pointless against Wraith armour.

On the other hand, Wraith have shown the capacity to drain powersources tied to some of the most advanced shields ever, and able to use more pure DET weapons able to release gigatons of energy on a planet.
Do not forget that a couple of Goa'ulds helped the Ori by transmitting intel, which could largely be about the kind of forces in presence in the MW galaxy, their advantages, powers and weaknesses. Notably the heavy reliance on shields.

Buth the Wraith don't use them to protect their ships.

It's almost like rock paper cisors (or whatever you call it).

EDIT: please show me evidence that Ori raiders have shields, and good ones may I say, not the kind of crap that get blown up by al'keshes or gliders.

[wezel19]

I think a differences is that the ancients were explores there ships were powerful but not really built for a prolonged war. They were very powerful as we sore a half working o'ryan destroyed a wraith hive. The Ancients also tried to broker a peace right till the end so they were prepaired to accept co-exsitance. Lastly the Ori have worlds to build ships, the ancients had outposts with maybe one ship.

Overall it shows that Ori would win as they have the technolgoy and will to fight and destroy an enermy.

[Schrodinger82]

I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.

Pretty much. Nukes are incredibly inefficient in terms of how they deliver their power. The fact that Bra'tac and Landrey would be killed in Ouroboros's scenario is a result of this inefficiency.

I don't see how a lack of inefficiency should be scene as a weakness on behalf of the Ori, however. It would be like saying incadescent light bulbs are superior to compact florescents, because they run so much hotter. Well, maybe so, but that's not what they should be designed for.

If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.

Good point. Even if the beams worked solely on shield draining like people theorize, that doesn't explain how it could punch through the hull.

Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).

I'm not sure if the drones prove much, since drones are pretty much unstoppable as far as we know so long as they have an adequate power source. The fact that this magical impervious super thin armor couldn't even be used to shield the hyperdrive engines from a 302 missile proves a lot, however. At the very least, you would expect them to be reinforced as much as possible for the sake of protecting them from the strain of undergoing hyperspace.

In NML, we see that the Wraith evidence room has windows to the outside. Now, how many more of such rooms might there be on the ship? Unless the Wraith has managed to develop a transparent adamantium alloy, I would reckon that there are more than enough of exposed areas on a hive ship that the Ori beam can punch through. And once the beams make it inside via the windows, what's to stop them from hitting some of the the same systems that John managed to blow up in "Rising"? Seeing as how John supposedly managed to bomb MULTIPLE such completely unshielded systems with no real knoweldge of alien technology or weak points just on his walking path alone, when ship destruction wasn't even his main objective, it's not like they would be very hard to find, even by accident.

[Mister Oragahn]

I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.

It's possible to create focused nukes nowadays I think.
Plus the nuke exploded on impact in NML, which means that at least 50% of the nuke's energy being imparted to the armour.

For example, the Ancient satellite cut right through a Hive, but most of the rest of the ship was virtually undamaged (until it blew up, of course).

Oh but it's a very exotic machine here, able to shoot down like three hiveships when only powered by a naqahdah generator, which once overloading would only release 20 KT of energy.

If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.

Ha'taks can be entirely destroyed by two ancient drones.
Obviously, once something starts to pierce inside a ship, there are very sensible parts waiting behind the hull to explode.

Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).

Of course, drones are the most advanced missiles we've seen in Stargate and in many scifi shows. They can explode on impact or on delay, drill, NDF stuff and even appear shielded to some point. Finally, they happily ignored all shields they went against.
There's not much in Stargate that could actually resist to that.

[Schrodinger82]

It's possible to create focused nukes nowadays I think.
Plus the nuke exploded on impact in NML, which means that at least 50% of the nuke's energy being imparted to the armour.

Since when do nukes explode on impact? If the hive armor is as tough as you claim, than the nuclear weapon would have squished on impact, thus making a perfectly timed explosion on a perfectly shaped explosive lens impossible. Further, the explosion would consist of radiation, rather than blast.

Oh but it's a very exotic machine here, able to shoot down like three hiveships when only powered by a naqahdah generator, which once overloading would only release 20 KT of energy.

Thus showing that the hive ships might not be as tough as people think.

Ha'taks can be entirely destroyed by two ancient drones.
Obviously, once something starts to pierce inside a ship, there are very sensible parts waiting behind the hull to explode.

Drones and beams operate under entirely different principles. For one thing, I've never seen a beam ram through a ship, circle round, and then ram through it again.

[Mister Oragahn]

Since when do nukes explode on impact? If the hive armor is as tough as you claim, than the nuclear weapon would have squished on impact, thus making a perfectly timed explosion on a perfectly shaped explosive lens impossible.

Considering how fast nuclear reactions are triggered, it should not be that hard to get a nuke explode on impact. Impact fuzing is already doable for slow nukes, and the ones in NML were far from being particularily fast moving ones. Besides, impact detonators is clearly the minor issue here.
If it doesn't work, then have it explode .5 second away from the hull then. Big deal.

Further, the explosion would consist of radiation, rather than blast.

It will consist mainly of radiations anyway, considering that the material of the nuke is made of will hardly provide any good material for blast purposes anyway.
On the other hand, the radiations heating up the mater it interacts with would provoke a blast, from the ship's own material. Of course, it requires that the hull will heat up first. Wraith armour did not and would not.

Thus showing that the hive ships might not be as tough as people think.

Two things. First, no need to deny Misbegotten. {Snip}.
Secondly, the if the satellite's beam was mostly consisting of DET, I would actually like the nuclear explosion that would occur once the beam would hit inside the ship, you know, with all the sensible and flammable equipment and air.

Oh wait, it didn't.

Drones and beams operate under entirely different principles. For one thing, I've never seen a beam ram through a ship, circle round, and then ram through it again.

And yet drones don't have any particularily insane explosive yields, yet the Ha'tak which got attacked in Good to be King went up in a particularily fiery way.
Ergo, sensible stuff inside once you've pushed in.
What Ori beams do.

[kharaa]

so wait, we're compairing it to the ancient defense satllite?

they used a naqahdah reactor yes, but to fire that weapon it required a charge, to fill a capaciter. (also SG is known for some plot inaccuraces(sp?) sometimes)

Which means the firepower that actually hits the hive, is much greater then the constant flow from the gen

[PG15]

Ha'taks can be entirely destroyed by two ancient drones.
Obviously, once something starts to pierce inside a ship, there are very sensible parts waiting behind the hull to explode.

Ah, but the difference is that, as you noted, the drones triggered internal explosions. We saw, very visibly in pretty much all Ori ship vs. Hatak, that the beams goes straight through the hatak. Secondary explosions don't really matter when you now look like a donut.

[SoulReaver]

IMO the ori beams would tear the hives to shreds

I dunno about wraith vs ori fleet, but in a hive vs earring "single" combat the best chance the hive would have in taking out the earring quickly might be to ram into it (thanks to its huge size)

[Schrodinger82]

If it doesn't work, then have it explode .5 second away from the hull then. Big deal.

Which could still be far enough away to dampen massive heating and expansion.

On the other hand, the radiations heating up the mater it interacts with would provoke a blast, from the ship's own material.

Which would depend heavily distance. Also keep in mind that the part of the armor that heated up would move omnidirectionally, rather in a in a single direction away for the bomb.

Two things. First, no need to deny Misbegotten. {Snip}

Because you were wrong, your arguments were vague, unsubstantiated, circular, and directly contradicted by Sateda, the Siege, NML, and Fail Safe. {Snip}

Secondly, the if the satellite's beam was mostly consisting of DET, I would actually like the nuclear explosion that would occur once the beam would hit inside the ship, you know, with all the sensible and flammable equipment and air.

What nuclear explosion? The beamed cleaved straight through the ship, cutting through all its armor in the process.

And yet drones don't have any particularily insane explosive yields,

No, they just have the ability to penetrate through solid matter as though it weren't even there (including going in one end of a hive ship and out the other, and then going against for a second trip), and be mentally operated to attack specific targets. e.g., the types of targets that Jack O Neil would be aware of that would serve as weak points in the ships construction.

The purpose of the drones isn't that they're massively explosive, the purpose of the drones is that they completely ignore defense. Now, if you're saying that the Ori beams operate under the same principles as the drones, well, big plus to the Ori.

they used a naqahdah reactor yes, but to fire that weapon it required a charge, to fill a capaciter. (also SG is known for some plot inaccuraces(sp?) sometimes)

Which means the firepower that actually hits the hive, is much greater then the constant flow from the gen

1) Total energy output is still finite.

2) McKay and others were fully expecting to be able to fire up with another shot moments later.