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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    No circular reasoning.
    Point me to a nuke fired by the Daedalus that's clearly been way below the megaton range and you may have a point
    Way to reverse the burden of proof, there. Sorry, but you're the one making a completely arbitrary claim of the yeild, it's now up to you to prove it. It's not on me to prove the negative.

    Sure, we didn't cover the point about how almost cloudless the very precise zone where the bolts landed was.
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

    Yes, there are absolutley no clouds in this picture at all, which means that we can definitively rule out there existence. Just out of curiousity, what would it look like if there was a cloud at that precise spot? Would it look any different from the lack of clouds at the exact spots depicted in the lightning picture? How do you know that there isn't a cloud at that "precise spot", that just happens to be illuminated? Sure looks like it could be a cloud to me.

    Just out of curiosuity, even if we assumed your circular premise/conclusion was true, how is it that you can have a multi-gt nuke that doesn't generate any clouds whatsoever (e.g., clouds of dust, smoke, etc.)? Contradict, much? Or the fact that normal dust/dirt/water vapor can absorb light as well, even in the absense of actual clouds. This is like the time you insisted that there couldn't be any dust in the air over Atlantis, because we didn't explicitly see it.

    And the Wraith knew about the nukes' yield... how?
    Right. That's why the writers had the Wraith go through the trouble of having the Wraith throw asteroids at them oon a RADAR screen. Because it would be so much cooler and dramatic looking than, say... showing hive ships pressing forward through the space mines, and the space mines having absolutley no effect. No, the writers decided to reveal that the hive armor was millions of times stronger than anyone could have possibly anticipated by showing an ambigous scene in "Misbegotten," one episode after Sheppard damaged their hyperdrives with a simple 302.

    Because if you want to show your audiences that the hive armor is that strong, that's really the best way to do it, in such a way that's so subtle and ambiguous 99.999% of your audience doesn't even notice. BTW, that's also the best time to imply that the hive weapons are also billions of times stronger than what they would later be depicted at in "Sateda."

    Not to say that at that time, the terrans had really no real idea as to how much energy was necessary to shoot down a hiveship from the outside.
    Yes, where as now they know that a simple 302 missile is sufficient to take out major external systems. Big whoop.

    Nope. Have you, for example, considered the kind of forces a hiveship's bare hull might go against well flying full throttle through the multi million kelvin (very hot) accretion disk of a black hole, by any chance?
    You still don't quite understand the difference between heat and temperature, do you? For instance, suppose that the visible matter that the tail of a comet was heated to a million degrees, only for a US space shuttle to pass through it. Would the space shuttle melt on on contact? No, because even though the tail might have a temperature of several millions degrees, it's stretched so thin that the amount of available heat/energy is relatively low. In the case of the acretion disc, at the matter would basically be crushes and atomized and spread out evenly across the event horizon.

    Not even counting the gravity here.
    We know that the 304's aren't capable of going anywhere near light speed even under ideal conditions, which means that it would have to be a considerable distance away from the acretion disc in order to escape the gravity. That's not even counting the effects that gravity would have on the ship itself.

    As far as I'm concerned, yes, that's the way they are, until you actually have a nice theory ready to debunk like decades of evidence regarding nuclear tests and direct transmission of energy into surrounding matter, especially air, to fuel gigantic fireballs.
    Completely different principles. It's like comparing someone lightning a stick of dynamite, to someone using a flamethrower. Both method disperse energy, but one of them releases that energy at a fixed point in space and a fixed point in time, where as the other spreads it out. "Gee, this stick of dynamite can create a shockwave that can break the speed of sound, so the stuff I hit with my flamethrower should do the same thing! I have decades and decades of physics that say that's how it works!"

    Hey, come to think of it, the sun is a giant nuclear reactor far more powerful than any bomb. I guess that the sun must also be able to "direct transmission of energy into surrounding matter, especially air, to fuel gigantic fireballs" as well. Roughly 122 PW of solar energy reaches the Earth every day. And sure enough, it also manages to set off an equivalent number of nuclear explosions. To say that it doesn't would completely contradict everything that Mr. O knows about physicsl

    See a 11 km long flying barn.
    Wow, so the ships are 11 km now? Sheppard managed to walk 11 km throughout the ship finding weak points, completely undetected while searching for his friends? How long was he there exactly, not to mention the the fact that he would have needed enough time for a return trip as every Wraith was now waking up and coming after him? Either John is really fast, or the Wraith must suck even more than we originally thought.

    Carter suggested that he had been lucky, which is fairly possible.
    Really? She did, did she?

    CARTER: Weapons must be depleted. Hopefully you hit some vital systems.
    (A few moments later, the mothership blows up.)
    O’NEILL: Think that was vital?
    CARTER: Relatively speaking. (She grins at Jack, who rocks his head in a “not bad” way. Sam looks out of the window, smiling, then blows out a breath of relief.)

    After all, Jack already had access to those blueprints since the first seasons of SG-1, yet he didn't limit himself to two drones per Ha'tak in Lost City.
    Might have something to do with the fact that Anubis wasn't flying a Ha'tak, and he only had one chance to take it out.

    Now, notice how, in No Man's Land, an entire drone wave passing through a hiveship wasn't enough to blow it up in just once swipe, but actually had to return inside to actually effectively damage it, despite the fact that all scientists from the expedition team, including Zelenka, previously had neat access to complete hiveship blueprints.
    Yes, which would be really handy too, since we all know that Zelenka had the ATA treatment and could control the drones via the neural interface. Oh wait!

    By all indications, the drones were acting on autopilot, and we have nothing that suggests that they are capable of seeking out weak points on their own. Seeing as how the Ancient database apparently didn't even have such basic tips as "Well, their hyperdrives are pretty vulnerable, so you can try attacking those," it doesn't seem like the ancients would have programmed in known weak points into the drone either. Which helps to answer the question, "Gee, how did the ancients lose with such superior technology?" Answer: Their technology was superior, the tactics were not.

    Also keep in mind that the drones pretty much attack in a straight line, so the advantage of 100 drones over 2 drones would be like the advantage of stabbing someone with a 100 foot sword vs. stabbing someone with a 2 foot sword. After a certain point, the additional help is neglible, since the drones are only penetrating through areas that have already been penetrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    He's saying that vaporizing rock earth and other geo materials, is much much harder then vaporizing wraith armor.
    You don't even have to go that far. You could only go as far as, "vaporizing rock earth and other geo materials, is much much harder then penetrating wraith armor" and the point would still stand. I don't see how we came to this conclusion that anything incapable of atomizing mountains was "weak."
    Last edited by Schrodinger82; October 20th, 2006 at 07:04 PM.

  2. #62
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    If the beamed worked by superheating matter, then it would have lost most of it's energy passing through miles upon miles of atmosphere. So either the weapon operates under different principles (e.g., raw concussive force), or most of the energy had been lost by the time it hit. You can't really have it both ways.
    Pick whatever method you need to make you happy, the end result remains the same. It sucks against physical matter. It wasn't bleeding anything to the atmosphere for sure. It passes right through a cloud without so much as disturbing it.

    Of course, all this is moot to begin with, because you're still assuming that it's harder to destroy a Wraith than it is to destroy a mountain, when we have no evidence to support it.
    Oh I think we do champ. That little pile of rocks you call a mountain would have been blasted more than flat by even a fairly modest nuclear weapon. Something which a hiveship doesn't seem to have any problem dealing with.

    Also if you strapped engines to that little pile of rocks and tried to fly it into space I doubt it would get very far before completely disintigratigrating for the same reasons that would make it easier to blast apart. It certainly wouldn't make it all the way to the blackhole and it's multi million kelvin accretion disk you seem to think it'll also handle flying through without any problems.

    Yet when even less impressive examples occur in Sateda, where the hive blasts fail to even destroy a metal barrel that it hits head on, we're told that the same weapons are supposed to be in the multi-GT range.
    You've never even proved those blasts came from the hiveship Shrod and even if they did there's overwhelming evidence to show a variety of weapon/bolt sizes from hiveships so this could simply have been a smaller one. Buba already posted some of that evidence which you've naturally dismissed of course.

    Did it? Or were those secondary explosions that came from all the completely unprotected, highly violatile system that you claim that John managed to find at least three of the first time he was walking on the Wraith ship with no prior experience with alien technology, back when time was crucial and ship destruction wasn't even a main priority?
    Probably a little bit of both and no matter how many times you post that picture of the burning hiveship from rising you're not going to change the fact that it took off (from under a forrest no less) without any problems a few days later.

    You're also not going to change the fact that the hiveship in no mans land survived not only a nuclear warhead, but massive internal detonations inside its hangers. Or that despite both it was still easier for the SG teams to repair than their own damaged 304. You're also not going to distract anyone from seeing the size of those blasts in misbegotten no matter how much crazy you talk about how hiveships actually fire fully formed thunderstorms at things.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
    Pick whatever method you need to make you happy, the end result remains the same.
    Yes, because you're wrong either way.

    That little pile of rocks you call a mountain would have been blasted more than flat by even a fairly modest nuclear weapon.
    Really? And I suppose you have empirical evidence of this?

    Also if you strapped engines to that little pile of rocks and tried to fly it into space I doubt it would get very far before completely disintigratigrating for the same reasons that would make it easier to blast apart.
    The lack of inertial dampeners?

    You've never even proved those blasts came from the hiveship Shrod
    I have Teyla saying that the hive ship will fire, followed by blasts coming straight down with no sound or sight of a dart ship. Which is a lot more than you have to suggest that the hive blasts are multi-GT (e.g., nothing.).

    Buba already posted some of that evidence which you've naturally dismissed of course.
    Naturally.

    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    Probably a little bit of both and no matter how many times you post that picture of the burning hiveship from rising you're not going to change the fact that it took off (from under a forrest no less) without any problems a few days later.
    Wraith technology has the power to heal itself, and even real world Earth battleships can withstand breaches to the external hull.

    You're also not going to change the fact that the hiveship in no mans land survived not only a nuclear warhead, but massive internal detonations inside its hangers.
    Circular reasoning. "Oh wow, the hive ship surived against an explosion of unknown force that it survived against! That proves that it's uber, even though in the same episode, a simple 302 missile does massive damage to major external systems."

    You're also not going to distract anyone from seeing the size of those blasts in misbegotten
    Doesn't matter how big they supposedly are, because you still have absolutely nothing to connect the sie of the blasts to actual yeild other than "because I say so." Your entire argument is a circular non-sequitor.

  4. #64
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Really? Even the windows? Where's your evidence? Do you even know what type of "rock" this entirely alien mountain was made from?
    no but you're saying a stone monument is harder than the superstructure of a wraith hive ships designed for war?

    Feel free to back up either with something other than personal speculation.
    you can see the thick armor on the actual ship so it's hardely speculation...

    Wow, it owned a ship that's less than 1/1000th it's total volume. Very impressive. Oh wait, the Daedalus completely crippled it and took it over that hive ship, despite the fact that the hive ship previously ambushed the Daedalus 2:1 while it was completely unshielded. How is that "owning," pray tell?
    ok, the hives tried to cripple the deadalus as it dropped out of hyperspace it didn't go according to plan so they left before the f-302 could disable their hyperdrive...

    then we have a crippled hive ship operating at less than 50% beating down the deadalus after sustaining a nuke hit and suffering massive internal explosions and it still ended up better off than the deadalus...

    Diffussion. Look it up.
    prove that energy weapons diffuse and expand in space, the burden of proof is on you this time seeing as i've posted pictures of far larger blasts which are 1000 times larger than the ones you've

    Shorter distance.
    how much shorter? do you know? and the fact remains the blasts didn't change size at all so your point is rubbish face it the wraith can fire different sized shots with different yields, we know other races can do this why is so hard to believe the wraith can do this also...

    An Ori beam would have no trouble making its way inside as well.
    that remains to be seen...

    Apparently they're littered all over if John managed to find three of them.
    internal explosions get that through your skull, an explosion in a confined space inside a ship is going to do more damage than an external hit against an armored hull, it's not rocket science...

    rubbish there's a huge difference between 3 and 3 dozen...

    what does that prove? i've shown far larger explosions close up than an amram i'm not talking about misbegotten...



    A lot more than what John and Ford had.
    not much seeing as cam and tealc had never set foot in ori ship before, the fact is it's very easy to cause serious damage from the inside of a ship...

    Yes, and at great risk to the pilot. What's your point?
    the fact is if wraith armor was that weak they'd be blown up by rail guns yet rail guns have only been effective in unarmored areas...

    please stop this BS about amrans blowing up hives it's absurd seeing as the explosions that wraith weapons cause on their bare hulls are much larger than that of an amram...

    my point is amrams would be ineffective against the hull of a hive ship, end of...

    Well, obviously the hive ships thought that the dart attacks warranted a counter response in "The Hive," rather than simply ignoring them, or wondering why the other hive ship was using their absolutely puniest weapons. The Hive ships are more powerful than the darts, but how much more powerful remains to be seen.
    the hives responded not because they thought they were in danger they were being attacked it's a natural response, if a mosquito flew around biting you you'd want to squash it wouldn't you?

    Are really {snip} to think that hives are armed with dart canons??? ok here's a question for you if hives are only slightly more powerful than darts why didn't the hives launch their darts when attacking atlantis in the Seige III they could have brought down the shields in about 5 minutes...

    once again in the face of SOLID evidence you make up a {snip} statement which has no merit whatsoever and is contradicted by the rest of the show...

    {snip}


    Yeah, and turning on the lights on atlantis for less than a day can take hundreds of years off the shield life, and simply occupyiying the gate room can create a notable drain on power.
    yes but mckay actually said that the shield could last nearly indeffinately without strain, yet the wraith can drain it in days...

    The lack of inertial dampeners?
    not inertial dampeners more like structual integrity...

    and that discounts the fact that i've posted pictures of larger explosions and blast 1000's of times bigger than the ones you keep refering to how?

    Circular reasoning. "Oh wow, the hive ship surived against an explosion of unknown force that it survived against! That proves that it's uber, even though in the same episode, a simple 302 missile does massive damage to major external systems."
    an external weakness, the rest of ship is not vulnerable that is canon, if the rest of the ship was that vulnerable it wouldn't be called an external weakness...

    the fact remains that the hyperdrive was exposed and unarmored which is why it could be destroyed...we've seen that dart fire comparable to amrams causes no damage to hive ships...

    Doesn't matter how big they supposedly are, because you still have absolutely nothing to connect the sie of the blasts to actual yeild other than "because I say so." Your entire argument is a circular non-sequitor.
    common sense, are you saying a blast a thousand times bigger than the one you keep refering to carries the same energy...{snip}see that i suppose the different sized explosions they make are actually the same size aswell...
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 01:01 AM.
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  5. #65
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    no but you're saying a stone monument is harder than the superstructure of a wraith hive ships designed for war?
    Are you saying that a mountain that the Ancients carved the most dangerous weapon in the galaxy from is the same thing as a stone monument?

    you can see the thick armor on the actual ship so it's hardely speculation...
    http://stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/301/html/nml0346.html

    ok, the hives tried to cripple the deadalus as it dropped out of hyperspace
    Non-circular evidence of this?

    then we have a crippled hive ship operating at less than 50% beating down the deadalus
    Did you neglect that part where the Daedalus is less than 1/1000th its total size?

    prove that energy weapons diffuse and expand in space,
    The hive blasts have a matter component, proven by the fact that it has an explosion on shields. The only type of matter that maintains its shape in a vacume is solid matter. Just out of curiousity, what would proof of this look like, other than hive balsts looking large after being fired from considerable distance?

    internal explosions get that through your skull, an explosion in a confined space inside a ship is going to do more damage than an external hit against an armored hull, it's not rocket science...
    And what happens when the Ori beam makes it's way inside?

    rubbish there's a huge difference between 3 and 3 dozen...
    Ever hear of a sample size? If just plants 5-10 blocks of C4 with an extremely short range of less than 10 feet, and hits 3 weak points, then that tells me that weak points must be VERY common to have such good odds. Presumably, the opposing hive ships would have better knowledge of where the weak points are than John did.

    what does that prove? i've shown far larger explosions close up than an amram i'm not talking about misbegotten...
    Wraith blasts consistently show much larger explosions when they hit Wraith armor than when they hit anything else (unshielded Daedalus, shielded Daedalus, etc.), even in the same frame of the same episode. Further, we have one AMRAM hitting the hive hull in "Allies," which results in a VERY large explosion.

    not much seeing as cam and tealc had never set foot in ori ship before,
    No, but Daniel and Vala have, plus they had Carter for guidance.

    the fact is if wraith armor was that weak they'd be blown up by rail guns yet rail guns have only been effective in unarmored areas...
    1) You have no proof that the specific areas were unarmored.

    2) Just how strong are the railguns to begin with? For instance, the SGA crew had no problem dealing with the recoil from the railguns meant for the Prometheus, despite Newton's third law of every action having an equal and opposite reaction.

    the hives responded not because they thought they were in danger they were being attacked it's a natural response, if a mosquito flew around biting you you'd want to squash it wouldn't you?
    Not if I was behind an armored wall and knew they couldn't get to me.

    yes but mckay actually said that the shield could last nearly indeffinately without strain, yet the wraith can drain it in days...
    He said that the shield could have lasted another hundred years if they hadn't arrived and turned on all the lights. What's your point?

    and that discounts the fact that i've posted pictures of larger explosions and blast 1000's of times bigger than the ones you keep refering to how?
    If you want to focus on the other explosions, then focus on the other explosions. But if you keep bringing up "Misbegotten," then I'll keep on debunking it.

    an external weakness, the rest of ship is not vulnerable that is canon, if the rest of the ship was that vulnerable it wouldn't be called an external weakness...
    Nope. The rest of the ship could easily be just as weak, the only difference being that the external weakness also has a major system that you can harm in the process. Hive ships are incredibly large, and have a tendency to boune back. However, some systems won't be as easy to bounce back from than others. In fact, here's Zelenka's exact statement:

    ZELENKA: Well, the ships are massive, (he shoves himself across the floor on his chair to another computer) but because of their mainly organic design, they have a number of external weaknesses.

    Note the adjective. The biggest thing that the Hive ship going for it is its size, not it's toughness. Shooting it up with a railgun would be like jamming a needle through an actual beehive. Sure it can probably pass through, but it won't do you much good, since the size of the needle is insignificant compared to the size of the hive, it's unlikely that you'll hit anything important, and the attack is easily avoided in general. Or, think of it like a zombie movie, where it takes the characters forever to realize that they should shoot the zombies in the head. The head is the weak point, even though the bullets will still pass through just about anywhere.

    common sense, are you saying a blast a thousand times bigger than the one you keep refering to carries the same energy. S...{snip} could see that i suppose the different sized explosions they make are actually the same size aswell...
    Here's a shot of a lightning strike from an amateur photographer:
    http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...ST_600x450.jpg

    And here's a shot of a lightning strike from space:
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    Wow, common sense must tell you that the lightning bolt in the second picture must be a billion times bigger than the lightning bolt from the first picture, right? It's not like it could simply be the fact that in one picture, you're observing the strike directly, where as in the second you're seeing the resulting light as it gets absorbed by atmospheric particulate. No, obviously, they must be completley different types of lightning altogether.
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 01:02 AM.

  6. #66
    Chief Master Sergeant Freek's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kirmit View Post
    I'm not sure about that, the Ori beam bascially looks the same as the beam that came out of the ancient satellite and that took out a hive in a single shot.
    It took a number of shots (something like 4?) to destroy a deadalus-class ship, 2 to take down a ha'tak.

  7. #67
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    The Ori beam blew away a Ha'tak with one shot. It took about three to destroy a Daedalus-class.
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  8. #68
    Lieutenant Colonel kirmit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Freek View Post
    It took a number of shots (something like 4?) to destroy a deadalus-class ship, 2 to take down a ha'tak.
    Yer like DigiFluid said, it's one shot for a ha'tak and we don't really know for a deadalus class, we saw 2 shots fired on the korolev, one was a combined shot but as the first shot took 50% of the shields I'd say 2 shots could do the job.

  9. #69
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    My guess was three. We know from the Odyssey that a single shot dropped their shields 50% and that the Korolev was hit in those opening volleys as well. Then the dual shot took her out. Logically to me, that means the second blast killed the shields completely (or came damn close) and the other blast was what sunk her.
    "Not every movie is for you. Not every TV show is for you. Not every song is for you. Find the things you like, and like them. Go nuts liking them. A thing ISN’T for you? Cool. Go find something you like. That’s it. That’s as complicated as it should be." -- David Blue

  10. #70
    Major wise one's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    well i say that the hive just sit on the ori ship shields or attack from behind where only the pulse weapons weapons can reach and the darts should just do what bees do and fly around the thing theyre attacking, so the darts just fly around the ori ship and shoot

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    I'm pretty sure the Ori can withstand blackholes, given that there is one (or at least they said there was one) near each supergate. I guess they kinda forgot to put it there though.

    Don't forget the Odyssey also came near the blackhole, and beside a few sparks and obvious gravitational turbulences (which could have gone on on the hive, we don't know), it faired fine.

    Another thing: the hive wasn't in the accresion(sp?) disk, which was shown as flat. Both the Oddy and the Hive flew OVER it.

    Oh yeah, one more thing (I really need to stop doing this): you said that the beam can't go through the rock. Well, how is it going to be able to do that? The rock is attached to the planet, so "the other side" would be half way around the planet! I just watched the episode (don't ask me how), and the Ori beam, on every hit, went straight down. There was no "other side" for the beam to puncture through (like it did those Hataks).

    Just my 2 cents.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by PG15 View Post
    Don't forget the Odyssey also came near the blackhole, and beside a few sparks and obvious gravitational turbulences (which could have gone on on the hive, we don't know), it faired fine.
    CARTER: There's no sign of a Wraith ship on the sensors.

    EMERSON: We can't trust sensors this close to the black hole. Shields to maximum.

    WOMACK: Shields are only operating at 20% efficiency.

    MCKAY: It's the black hole. We need to get further away.


    That was before they got in close to the black hole (and presumably an exponentially greater dose of the gravitational effects), and before the Wraith ship starting firing on them with their "kilometer long beams." Despite this, the Odyssey still managed to hold out.

    The Ori beams, meanwhile, managed to take a brand new and ready Odyssey down 50% in one hit, which is is 2.5 times more than the 20% that the Odyssey had to start with. Note that the Ori beams didn't seem to have much trouble breeching the Korelev hull either (The Daedalus can be breached with a simple 302 round, so that makes sense.). By the time the Hive ship fired on the Odyssey and the Odyssey flew in close, what do you think their shield levels were at? 2%? 5%? Yet it still managed to survive. So yes, the Ori beam is fully capable of destroying/penetrating something capable of surviving a black hole in one blast, and then some.

    Heck, even a Goa'uld Cargo ship managed to survive being near a black hole long enough for Thor to rescue them.

    What else?

    1) Hive blasts don't have inertial dampeners built in, for obvious reasons. If they have a matter component, then shouldn't they be distorted/elongated by the black hole's gravitational effects? Guess that explains that.

    2) Well, we know that the Daedalus has problems just detecting things moving at near light speeds. The idea that the Odyssey could transport a nuke directly into something something moving near light speed is highly unlikely. If the hive ship isn't moving near light speed, the it couldn't have been very close to the center of the black hole, which minimizes the effects of the accretion disc.

    3) The Wraith ship passes right by the Stargate, which has been maintaining a stable orbit throughout the episode. Again, at presumably well below light speed.

    4) The acretion disc is already moving in the same direction as the hive ship/Odyssey, thus minimizing the force of impact with the debris. Just out of curiousity, how much force could the acretion disc enact on the hive ship/odyssey to begin with?

    5) In "A Matter of Time," the team on the other end of the gate is close enough to the black hole to be caught up in the time distortion effects of it, yet apparently have yet to be pulled apart by the gravity, or killed by the radiation coming from the acretion discs. Yes, this makes no sense in terms of real world physics, but that's where Stargate physics come in. According to Stargate physics, even completely unshielded flesh and blood human beings can survive in the direct presense of a black hole, at least long enough to dial to earth and type in your iris code (Which, when you factor in the time distortion effects, which be a considerable amount of time). If human beings can survive that, then the idea that a ship can survive for several seconds under similar conditions is not that impressive.

    6) Actually, I just realized something else. You ever notice how people in shuttles around the earth experience zero g? Why is that? The common answer is "because they're so far away." The actual answer is because gravity is acting on them, but they're in a constant state of freefall, so thtey don't feel the effects of it (For the same reason you feel lighter when the elevator moves down, and heavier when the elevator moves up.). A ship that attempts to slingshot along the trajectory of gravity would be in a state of free fall, thus minimizing the actual effects.
    Last edited by Schrodinger82; October 21st, 2006 at 03:06 PM.

  13. #73
    First Lieutenant VSHARMA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    I believe the wraith, The Ori and the Ancients are very Similar.
    True. The Ancients couldn't beat the Wraith. But the Ancients were useless anyway......... First the run from the Avalon Galaxy from the Ori, then they ran from a Plague, and then they ran from the Wraith. A bunch of Gandhi's if you ask me. Pacifists. Ascension was the quick way out.

  14. #74
    You call that a glowstick?
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Guys, keep your personal issues out of this thread, in fact keep them out of ALL the threads.

    the topic is the ori and wraith battling. let's keep it to that please.

    And if you can't, please keep your posts to yourself

  15. #75
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Really? And I suppose you have empirical evidence of this?
    Indeed I do.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_testing
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedan_(nuclear_test)

    I have Teyla saying that the hive ship will fire, followed by blasts coming straight down with no sound or sight of a dart ship. Which is a lot more than you have to suggest that the hive blasts are multi-GT (e.g., nothing.).
    So you have speculation {Snip}

    As I've already showed you the last time, the bolts were moving too slowly to have come all the way from orbit in the given time. I believe you dodged that by claiming that there was actually a 11km hiveship right over their heads that didn't cast and obvious shadow, move any air around, make any noise or give any general indication that it actually existed.

    Why don't you describe for me the exact proccess through which a hiveship's weapon battery creates a thunderstorm when fired at planets rather than just an explosion like it does when fired at everything else.

    Occam will be watching.

    Wraith technology has the power to heal itself, and even real world Earth battleships can withstand breaches to the external hull.
    So that would actually mean the damage was trivial right. If it could be regenerated in a matter of days and/or didn't actually impede the ships function in any meaningful way.

    Circular reasoning. "Oh wow, the hive ship surived against an explosion of unknown force that it survived against! That proves that it's uber, even though in the same episode, a simple 302 missile does massive damage to major external systems."
    The only one displaying circular reasoning in this thread is you. You do it every time you discard an example of higher firepower in favour of preserving your ideas about C4 being all that's needed to kill hiveships.

    The 304 missile didn't even cause enough damage to the hyperdrive to preclude it either fixing itself, or a bunch of humans fixing it, more easily than they could fix their own ship with which they're actually familiar.

    The hive, and it's supposedly crippled hyperdrive, was used to tow the Daedalus home.

    Doesn't matter how big they supposedly are, because you still have absolutely nothing to connect the sie of the blasts to actual yeild other than "because I say so." Your entire argument is a circular non-sequitor.
    You know calling fallacy to everything the otherside says doesn't make it so {snip}.

    All that goes on in the misbegotten example is the explosions are measured relative to the planet and a yield is derived from what would be required to make explosions of that size. It is very simple, straight-forward and logical.
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 01:04 AM.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
    As I've already showed you the last time, the bolts were moving too slowly to have come all the way from orbit in the given time.
    You realize that the show is rarely in real time to begin with, right?

    I believe you dodged that by claiming that there was actually a 11km hiveship right over their heads that didn't cast and obvious shadow,
    First, where in the world is this new 11 km figure coming from? Second, you're assuming that it was midday and that the sun was directly overhead, despite the fact that Ronan had been fighting for a considerable period of time, and it would have taken SGA a good while to find him.

    Why don't you describe for me the exact proccess through which a hiveship's weapon battery creates a thunderstorm
    Don't have to. All I have to show is that the wraith weaponry creates light. Which it does. That light can then be absorbed the same way that lightning is. Do you think the atmospheric particle really cares whether a photon of light comes from a thunderstorm or a hive weapon?

    If it could be regenerated in a matter of days and/or didn't actually impede the ships function in any meaningful way.
    Function, no. Armor, yes.

    You do it every time you discard an example of higher firepower in favour of preserving your ideas about C4 being all that's needed to kill hiveships.
    That's not circular by any definition, since we know how strong the C4 is, and we know how much damage it managed to do to the ship. Both facts of which can be independently verified without having to rely on the other.

    You know calling fallacy to everything the otherside says doesn't make it so {snip}
    No, but it does point out the fact that you constantly rely on them.

    All that goes on in the misbegotten example is the explosions are measured relative to the planet and a yield is derived from what would be required to make explosions of that size.
    Right, just like the lightning pictures I posted from NASA, which are even more impressive than the ones you posted from Misbegotten, show that the lightning bolts must be creating explosions dozens of miles across. Right?

    It's a fun little game.

    "The Wraith are uber impressive, because they managed to survive an acretion disc! No way could the Ori harm them!"
    "Uh.. the 304 managed to survive the acretion disc as well. At 20% shields. And that was before it got hit by the Wraith weapons, and before it flew in close. But we all know that the Ori still managed to hurt it."
    "Yeah, but that doesn't count!"

    "The Wraith are ubder impressive, because of this picture."
    "I can post a similar picture of lightning. That picture in itself doesn't prove anything."
    "Yeah, but that doesn't count!"
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 01:05 AM.

  17. #77
    Brigadier General Madeleine's Avatar
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    Default My head hurts.

    This is a TV show. The Writers themselves don't think about these things as hard as you're thinking about them. They know that most viewers probably don't either.

    They write what is expedient. When it comes to ordnance, ships, tech etc they contradict each other at whim without noticing, dependant on what the story needs and what the FX chaps can manage.

    That is why you can 'prove' that [show variable X]<[show variable Y]<[show variable Z], AND that [show variable Z]<<[show variable X].

    Me, all that I can prove is that some people get far too worked up about this. I'm not entirely sure why.
    Last edited by Madeleine; October 21st, 2006 at 10:17 PM.

    Madeleine

  18. #78
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    I agree completely with that, MW.

  19. #79
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Way to reverse the burden of proof, there. Sorry, but you're the one making a completely arbitrary claim of the yeild, it's now up to you to prove it. It's not on me to prove the negative.
    There's nothing arbitrary. First, YOU show me that the Daedalus carries nukes that range below the megaton ones and gigaton ones. You haven't last time I asked you to do so. You only evaded the question.
    We've only seen megaton and gigaton warheads.

    This puts a fair figure on how much the wraith armor had to withstand. It's not that hard, see.

    Then of course, there's Misbegotten. Besides the nature of the explosions that are in dispute, you keep claiming that my reasoning is ciruclar.
    Which demonstrates that you're completely lost. You just don't know what a CR is. You keep reusing the term on and on, but that's silly.
    There's no circular reasoning, because what I do is estimate a firepower from a single event, and then, based on the figure obtained, estimate the amount of energy necessary to blow up a wraith hiveship by looking at how long it took for an enemy hiveship to shoot it down as fast as possible.
    It's purely linear.
    Get it?

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0581.html

    Yes, there are absolutley no clouds in this picture at all, which means that we can definitively rule out there existence. Just out of curiousity, what would it look like if there was a cloud at that precise spot? Would it look any different from the lack of clouds at the exact spots depicted in the lightning picture? How do you know that there isn't a cloud at that "precise spot", that just happens to be illuminated? Sure looks like it could be a cloud to me.
    Well well well. What does it change? Have you demonstrated that there are (enough) clouds precisely above ground zero?
    I don't think so.
    Needless to say that in the very picture you post, there are large zones which are completely clear as well all around ground zero.

    Just out of curiosuity, even if we assumed your circular premise/conclusion was true, how is it that you can have a multi-gt nuke that doesn't generate any clouds whatsoever (e.g., clouds of dust, smoke, etc.)? Contradict, much? Or the fact that normal dust/dirt/water vapor can absorb light as well, even in the absense of actual clouds.
    There are fireballs that will be created. With a constant bombardment, fireballs won't have time to cool down that much. Which means that there will be a zone of powerful light that won't shrink until the bombardment stops or moves away, or slows down.
    The clouds you're talking about are the fireballs cooling down after reaching maximum size. So those clouds are not going to be particularily bigger than their original fireballs.
    They'll eventually slightly inflate if more energy is pumped into them, that is, if more fireballs are added, and equally heat up.

    Right. That's why the writers had the Wraith go through the trouble of having the Wraith throw asteroids at them oon a RADAR screen. Because it would be so much cooler and dramatic looking than, say... showing hive ships pressing forward through the space mines, and the space mines having absolutley no effect.
    No, the writers decided to reveal that the hive armor was millions of times stronger than anyone could have possibly anticipated by showing an ambigous scene in "Misbegotten...
    Writers' intent is pretty much irrelevant here, since it does not show that the Wraith knew about the yield of those mines.
    Imagine they were multi-teraton mines, or more. There's just no way they could know how powerful the mines were, and the writers just wanted the Wraith to throw rocks at mines. But YOU want it to be a proof that the Wraith would not want to venture close to the mines. That is, I'm afraid, only your wishful thinking.
    The Wraith throw rocks at those objects, and see what happens. It's, at best, nothing more than a test.
    So drop that point because you have no evidence whatsoever to bring to the table on this.

    ..." one episode after Sheppard damaged their hyperdrives with a simple 302.
    Because if you want to show your audiences that the hive armor is that strong, that's really the best way to do it, in such a way that's so subtle and ambiguous 99.999% of your audience doesn't even notice.
    Is it that problematic if there's a weak spot?
    Sure, it's a bad one (nothing's perfect, especially coming from the crew behind SGA stories), but it's not a reason to declare the whole ship as being as tough as a tincan.
    Is an armored tank 100% protected by its armor? No.
    Plus, damaging the main hyperdrive didn't really seem to threaten the crew's survival. Sure, it's an important system, but it's not vital.
    More, it was easily repaired by a human crew, while that same human crew could not repair their own damn ship... which was never touched by any bolt once the shields dropped mind you. In all cases, it speaks in the advantage of the Wraith.

    BTW, that's also the best time to imply that the hive weapons are also billions of times stronger than what they would later be depicted at in "Sateda."
    The hell. Sateda is not a proof of maximum firepower, so drop your argumentation, it's getting old and has been debunked by several persons here, including me. There's enoug evidence that the bolts can be largely more powerful.
    Have you seen those Daedalus dwarfing bolts exchanged in The Hive for example?
    Ah, why ask? We've seen that you're just going to ignore this, as always, and constantly rehash Sateda as the ultimate and unique basis of evidence.

    You still don't quite understand the difference between heat and temperature, do you? For instance, suppose that the visible matter that the tail of a comet was heated to a million degrees, only for a US space shuttle to pass through it. Would the space shuttle melt on on contact? No, because even though the tail might have a temperature of several millions degrees, it's stretched so thin that the amount of available heat/energy is relatively low. In the case of the acretion disc, at the matter would basically be crushes and atomized and spread out evenly across the event horizon.
    I find it particularily amusing that you claim that, despite talking about an accretion disk of a matter crunching black hole, you actually dare say that it will be just like a comet's tail: completely stretched out, above all coming with a low density, so the average ratio of temperature/volume will be extremely low.
    High levels physics about calculations of densities and radiations emissions in the vicinity of a event horizon - that are well beyond my own capacities - still mention from time to time high densities, and it would be rather curious to be told that densities are rather low instead of high in the proximity of the event horizon, or even half way between the EH's edge and the borders of the accretion disk.

    For example, despite a sun's corona being sensibly hotter than its own surface, the fact that matter is spread so thin means that in the global scheme, even if each particle will be extremely hot, there'll be so much space between each one of them that the average temperature will be particularily low in comparison.
    Our sun's photosphere, yet, essentially heated up by core radiations, is *only* measured at 5800 kelvins.

    The point of contention is to know if the hiveship went inside the accretion disk. The Daedalus did, as the video proves it:
    Video.

    Looking at the 304's trajectory and her speed, and the fact that it draws a line in the matter soon after it has entirely disappeared from the screen,
    and considering that the hiveship flew at the same speed and went for the same trajectory, safe if the ship suddenly pulled an angular turn that's far improbable considering the mass of the vessel, it also went into the disc.

    If the hiveship did not get into that disc, in the end, it's not problem, because we know that Wraith capital ships are able to quickly drain 304's shield, the same shield which, at 20%, is still able to withstand the energies, gravities and eventually friction when flying full throttle through a black hole's accretion disc.
    That means mean Wraith weapons.

    It's interesting when you realize that the heat of an accretion disk is due to differential friction within the fluidic matter.
    Of course, a large craft such as a hiveship, already entering an accretion disc at tens of kilometers per second, and now flying in far excess of the relative speeds producing the heat in that same disc, would largely enhance the amount of friction with the hull.
    In the end, I would claim that it's impossible to think that it can't be extremely significant in terms of energy generation.

    So even without the solid numbers, should we suggest that the figures are going to be negligible, or, on the contrary, rather of consequence?


    We know that the 304's aren't capable of going anywhere near light speed even under ideal conditions, which means that it would have to be a considerable distance away from the acretion disc in order to escape the gravity.
    You may want to watch the episode. The 304 went right through the accretion disc.
    Remember that the ship came in at a high velocity, and used the slingshot manoeuver to gain even more speed.

    That's not even counting the effects that gravity would have on the ship itself.
    Exactly, that same gravity that would have a stress effect on a 11 km armored ship actually fighting against the gravity when flying away from the black hole.

  20. #80
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: My head hurts.

    Completely different principles. It's like comparing someone lightning a stick of dynamite, to someone using a flamethrower. Both method disperse energy, but one of them releases that energy at a fixed point in space and a fixed point in time, where as the other spreads it out. "Gee, this stick of dynamite can create a shockwave that can break the speed of sound, so the stuff I hit with my flamethrower should do the same thing! I have decades and decades of physics that say that's how it works!"
    That analogy is deeply flawed. {Mod Snip}.

    Hey, come to think of it, the sun is a giant nuclear reactor far more powerful than any bomb. I guess that the sun must also be able to "direct transmission of energy into surrounding matter, especially air, to fuel gigantic fireballs" as well. Roughly 122 PW of solar energy reaches the Earth every day. And sure enough, it also manages to set off an equivalent number of nuclear explosions. To say that it doesn't would completely contradict everything that Mr. O knows about physicsl
    {Mod Snip}
    With sufficient energies released one a single zone in matter and atmosphere, large quantities of said energies will just act like large nuclear explosions, safe for the particularities of the nuclear reactions, in the end it's all about heating up matter in a very similar fashion, which in the end produce giant fireballs.

    What do you think will happen when the so called DET beam will hit the inner structure of the hiveship, and quickly flame up the internal matter with kilotons of energy?

    According to you, this beam principally works on the principles of DET, a corner stone to your anti-argument.
    That's the way it supposedly went through the armor, vaporizing it and all the matter in between both sides of the ship.

    So we should have a multi kiloton beam that will vaporize all the ship's internal matter on its way, and of course, this happening inside an environment full of air, should produce large fireballs and blinding flashes, because that's just what you'll get when high levels of energy will be suddenly released on a focused zone in a very short timeframe.

    However, none of those happen.

    So the beam's destruction mechanism has a larger exotic part than a raw one, and thus your argument against armor toughness regarding direct energy transfer is null and void.

    Wow, so the ships are 11 km now?
    Yes.
    Apparently, it should have always been that way. It seems there's a recent stargate VFX article where the art director complains that scales do get screwed up too often to his tastes, and that the hiveship was always supposed to be depicted as 11 km long.
    Funnily, the measurements I made did provide a figure relatively close: more than 10.9... km, and it contained a fair margin of movement.

    Sheppard managed to walk 11 km throughout the ship finding weak points, completely undetected while searching for his friends? How long was he there exactly, not to mention the the fact that he would have needed enough time for a return trip as every Wraith was now waking up and coming after him? Either John is really fast, or the Wraith must suck even more than we originally thought.
    The Wraith ship and the crew, as a whole, were almost all asleep. There's not much resistance to find there, even when the Keeper was killed.

    Really? She did, did she?

    CARTER: Weapons must be depleted. Hopefully you hit some vital systems.
    (A few moments later, the mothership blows up.)
    O’NEILL: Think that was vital?
    CARTER: Relatively speaking. (She grins at Jack, who rocks his head in a “not bad” way. Sam looks out of the window, smiling, then blows out a breath of relief.)
    Ok, it's not Carter. It's the whole situation, from Carter hopefully thinking they hit a vital part, to the way O'neill replies in a not very convinced way.

    Might have something to do with the fact that Anubis wasn't flying a Ha'tak, and he only had one chance to take it out.
    Obviously not. In both situations, Jack only had one chance to take each ship out.
    He still sent a whole horde of hundreds of drones against the Ha'taks, and just as much against the supership.
    Too bad for someone who had a whole knowledge plus an alteran outpost to support him.
    Your argument is moot.

    Yes, which would be really handy too, since we all know that Zelenka had the ATA treatment and could control the drones via the neural interface. Oh wait!
    Tzzzz!
    Wrong answer. McKay remotely controlled a drone in The Tower just by using a laptop plugged to a firing rack, all that within a few minutes. You tell me that Zelenka and co couldn't do that for all the time they had their hands on the Orion's system?
    Riiight.


    By all indications, the drones were acting on autopilot, and we have nothing that suggests that they are capable of seeking out weak points on their own.
    We have the drone in Condemned hitting a cruiser and going for the engines. The projectile was mostly uncontrolled safe for the initial path, and no one in the expedition team had any idea of a cruiser's cross sections.
    After that, we have the rogue drone in Rising seeking out for John's helicopter, despite Beckett not wanting to shoot down anything, and actually trying to deactivate the weapon.

    Seeing as how the Ancient database apparently didn't even have such basic tips as "Well, their hyperdrives are pretty vulnerable, so you can try attacking those," it doesn't seem like the ancients would have programmed in known weak points into the drone either.
    Consindering that Ancients usually fire many drones in battle, manually targetting for weak spots when you've got a legion of fiery drillers to impale to leave more holes than matter in a large target, it would not be necessary to go for such specificities.
    However, it does not prove it can't exist. Above all, it would prove extremely useful in the case you'd have only a few missiles left.

    ...
    Here's a shot of a lightning strike from an amateur photographer:
    http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/200...ST_600x450.jpg

    And here's a shot of a lightning strike from space:
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    Wow, common sense must tell you that the lightning bolt in the second picture must be a billion times bigger than the lightning bolt from the first picture, right? It's not like it could simply be the fact that in one picture, you're observing the strike directly, where as in the second you're seeing the resulting light as it gets absorbed by atmospheric particulate. No, obviously, they must be completley different types of lightning altogether.
    He was comparing bolts in vacuum. Yours atmosphere related pics could not be more irrelevant actually.

    {Mod Snip}
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 22nd, 2006 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Personal attacks/Bickering are NOT welcome and Disrespecting a Moderator is definitely not allowed

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