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  1. #41
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Since when do nukes explode on impact? If the hive armor is as tough as you claim, than the nuclear weapon would have squished on impact, thus making a perfectly timed explosion on a perfectly shaped explosive lens impossible.
    Considering how fast nuclear reactions are triggered, it should not be that hard to get a nuke explode on impact. Impact fuzing is already doable for slow nukes, and the ones in NML were far from being particularily fast moving ones. Besides, impact detonators is clearly the minor issue here.
    If it doesn't work, then have it explode .5 second away from the hull then. Big deal.

    Further, the explosion would consist of radiation, rather than blast.
    It will consist mainly of radiations anyway, considering that the material of the nuke is made of will hardly provide any good material for blast purposes anyway.
    On the other hand, the radiations heating up the mater it interacts with would provoke a blast, from the ship's own material. Of course, it requires that the hull will heat up first. Wraith armour did not and would not.

    Thus showing that the hive ships might not be as tough as people think.
    Two things. First, no need to deny Misbegotten. {Snip}.
    Secondly, the if the satellite's beam was mostly consisting of DET, I would actually like the nuclear explosion that would occur once the beam would hit inside the ship, you know, with all the sensible and flammable equipment and air.

    Oh wait, it didn't.

    Drones and beams operate under entirely different principles. For one thing, I've never seen a beam ram through a ship, circle round, and then ram through it again.
    And yet drones don't have any particularily insane explosive yields, yet the Ha'tak which got attacked in Good to be King went up in a particularily fiery way.
    Ergo, sensible stuff inside once you've pushed in.
    What Ori beams do.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    so wait, we're compairing it to the ancient defense satllite?

    they used a naqahdah reactor yes, but to fire that weapon it required a charge, to fill a capaciter. (also SG is known for some plot inaccuraces(sp?) sometimes)

    Which means the firepower that actually hits the hive, is much greater then the constant flow from the gen

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post

    Ha'taks can be entirely destroyed by two ancient drones.
    Obviously, once something starts to pierce inside a ship, there are very sensible parts waiting behind the hull to explode.
    Ah, but the difference is that, as you noted, the drones triggered internal explosions. We saw, very visibly in pretty much all Ori ship vs. Hatak, that the beams goes straight through the hatak. Secondary explosions don't really matter when you now look like a donut.

  4. #44
    Lieutenant Colonel SoulReaver's Avatar
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    Earth Symbol Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    IMO the ori beams would tear the hives to shreds

    I dunno about wraith vs ori fleet, but in a hive vs earring "single" combat the best chance the hive would have in taking out the earring quickly might be to ram into it (thanks to its huge size)

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    If it doesn't work, then have it explode .5 second away from the hull then. Big deal.
    Which could still be far enough away to dampen massive heating and expansion.

    On the other hand, the radiations heating up the mater it interacts with would provoke a blast, from the ship's own material.
    Which would depend heavily distance. Also keep in mind that the part of the armor that heated up would move omnidirectionally, rather in a in a single direction away for the bomb.

    Two things. First, no need to deny Misbegotten. {Snip}
    Because you were wrong, your arguments were vague, unsubstantiated, circular, and directly contradicted by Sateda, the Siege, NML, and Fail Safe. {Snip}
    Secondly, the if the satellite's beam was mostly consisting of DET, I would actually like the nuclear explosion that would occur once the beam would hit inside the ship, you know, with all the sensible and flammable equipment and air.
    What nuclear explosion? The beamed cleaved straight through the ship, cutting through all its armor in the process.

    And yet drones don't have any particularily insane explosive yields,
    No, they just have the ability to penetrate through solid matter as though it weren't even there (including going in one end of a hive ship and out the other, and then going against for a second trip), and be mentally operated to attack specific targets. e.g., the types of targets that Jack O Neil would be aware of that would serve as weak points in the ships construction.

    The purpose of the drones isn't that they're massively explosive, the purpose of the drones is that they completely ignore defense. Now, if you're saying that the Ori beams operate under the same principles as the drones, well, big plus to the Ori.

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    they used a naqahdah reactor yes, but to fire that weapon it required a charge, to fill a capaciter. (also SG is known for some plot inaccuraces(sp?) sometimes)

    Which means the firepower that actually hits the hive, is much greater then the constant flow from the gen
    1) Total energy output is still finite.

    2) McKay and others were fully expecting to be able to fire up with another shot moments later.
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 12:35 AM.

  6. #46
    Lieutenant Colonel kirmit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Can I just point out in the arguement of the Ori weapon and the mountain, The beam was shot from space onto the planet, an extremely far distance and going through the planets atmosphere before it reached the planet, alot of the energy would've been lost because of this. In space however it wouldn't have these factors against it before it hit a hive. I just watched the clip against and I noticed the weapon actually acted different to how it has previously, almost like it was heating up the mountain before the explosion or travelling deep inside it or the planet before a visible effect. teal'c also said complete and utter destruction and dakaara is no more, does that mean the ori ship blew up the entire planet? If so then that's a very scarey thought for the wraith.

  7. #47
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kirmit View Post
    Can I just point out in the arguement of the Ori weapon and the mountain, The beam was shot from space onto the planet, an extremely far distance and going through the planets atmosphere before it reached the planet, alot of the energy would've been lost because of this. In space however it wouldn't have these factors against it before it hit a hive. I just watched the clip against and I noticed the weapon actually acted different to how it has previously, almost like it was heating up the mountain before the explosion or travelling deep inside it or the planet before a visible effect. teal'c also said complete and utter destruction and dakaara is no more, does that mean the ori ship blew up the entire planet? If so then that's a very scarey thought for the wraith.
    It didn't seem to lose that much energy despite the air though. You can tell because it's not even bleeding off enough waste energy to burn away the layer of clouds it passes though.

    It doesn't drill into the mountin either. If you watch the video of the scene you can actually see places on the mountain that get hit, then seem to not even be damaged at all after the beam subsides.

    It's weird the way it blows up. It also seems like it wouldn't even have blown up at all had the Ori beam not hit the weapon itself as it was opening. That's when everything started to explode so it's even possible that it was the ancient weapon blowing up, and not the Ori beam at all, that caused the mountain to explode.

  8. #48
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by PG15 View Post
    I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.
    There's some truth in this yes. If you take say a 1 megaton directed energy beam and a 1 megaton nuke and fire them off you're going to be better off standing 400 feet behind the energy beam than 400 feet behind the nuke. There's still going to be some kind of explosion that results from the beam hitting though.

    The reason for that is the beam, when it hits, will superheat some of the rocks/dirt into gas/plasma and this will rapidly expand causing a large explosion and that will go in all directions. It won't be as powerful as a nuke of the same starting power as the beam but it will still by fairly nasty.

    What's important here is that even the final explosion isn't very big. With that in mind, and the inefficiencies of beam weapon's you've pointed out, it obvious that the beam didn't pump singificnat amounts of energy into the mountain here because there's simply no accounting for such energy.

    Nothing melts, nothing vaporises, there's no excessive collateral damage from the beam hitting in the area, explosive or otherwise, there's just a fairly modest explosion at the end that probably doesn't even completely destroy that little city at the foot of the mountain.

    For example, the Ancient satellite cut right through a Hive, but most of the rest of the ship was virtually undamaged (until it blew up, of course).
    Yeah the satellite is definately the driling type of weapon. Very tightly focussed and aimed at penetration rather than explosive effects. It still created some explosive effects to though, even in space.

    If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.
    The shields are probably not much of an obsticle. Even the toned down low-tech Ori satellite could handle the Asguard sheilds on Prometheus so it seems only logical that the full scale Ori built version would be at least that good as well.

    That only really leaves the Ha'tak hull which evidently isn't so hot when it comes to resisting a more focussed energy beam like the Ori one. The Goa'uld's own weapons seem to rely more on explosive or even kinetic effects so it's not to out there to think their armour might not be optimised to deal with something like the Ori weapon since it's not something they're accustomed to facing. There's also the possability that the Ori beam uses some sort of non-scientific StarTrek like Phaser wanktech. Where it disintegrates/destroys matter in some exotic way other than with simple direct energy transfer.

    If that's the case it just needs to drill into a Ha'tak and hit some of the explody parts inside that make them blow up, just like an ancient drone which also uses some sort of disitegration and/or "phasing" wanktech to damage things.

    Also to clairify when I said they were primarily anti shield weapons I didn't mean to suggest that they were completely useless against matter. They can damage matter to, just not to the extent that they seem to punch through shields. They're disproportionatly more effective on shields in other words.

    Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).
    There's weak spots sure but the vast majority of it does seem to be a giant flying brick. Look at the thickness of the boney stuff in some of the episodes like lostboys/hive. There's also the whole eating a nuke thing which a seriously doubt a Ha'tak or 304 could have managed without shields up.

    Drones fly through everything so it's not surprising the Wraith armour doesn't stop them very well either. Nothing seems to.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
    The reason for that is the beam, when it hits, will superheat some of the rocks/dirt into gas/plasma and this will rapidly expand causing a large explosion and that will go in all directions. It won't be as powerful as a nuke of the same starting power as the beam but it will still by fairly nasty.
    If the beamed worked by superheating matter, then it would have lost most of it's energy passing through miles upon miles of atmosphere. So either the weapon operates under different principles (e.g., raw concussive force), or most of the energy had been lost by the time it hit. You can't really have it both ways.

    Of course, all this is moot to begin with, because you're still assuming that it's harder to destroy a Wraith than it is to destroy a mountain, when we have no evidence to support it. For instance, the Replicators are highly advanced, and RepliCarter makes it clear that they intend to destroy the weapon on Dakara ("Thanks to you, it will soon be no more."). So why don't they just hit it from orbit? Obviously, it must be harder than it sounds.

    Nothing melts, nothing vaporises, there's no excessive collateral damage from the beam hitting in the area, explosive or otherwise, there's just a fairly modest explosion at the end that probably doesn't even completely destroy that little city at the foot of the mountain.
    Yet when even less impressive examples occur in Sateda, where the hive blasts fail to even destroy a metal barrel that it hits head on, we're told that the same weapons are supposed to be in the multi-GT range.

    Yeah the satellite is definately the driling type of weapon. Very tightly focussed and aimed at penetration rather than explosive effects. It still created some explosive effects to though, even in space.
    Did it? Or were those secondary explosions that came from all the completely unprotected, highly violatile system that you claim that John managed to find at least three of the first time he was walking on the Wraith ship with no prior experience with alien technology, back when time was crucial and ship destruction wasn't even a main priority?

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/102x464.html

    Either the Wraith ships are fragile enough to blow up with C4, or there are weak points littered throughout. Again, you can't have it both ways. What we know is that John, with very little knowledge and very little time, managed to do extensive damage to the Wraith ship. There is no reason why an Ori beam couldn't do the same.

  10. #50
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    here we go again...

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Of course, all this is moot to begin with, because you're still assuming that it's harder to destroy a Wraith than it is to destroy a mountain, when we have no evidence to support it. For instance, the Replicators are highly advanced, and RepliCarter makes it clear that they intend to destroy the weapon on Dakara ("Thanks to you, it will soon be no more."). So why don't they just hit it from orbit? Obviously, it must be harder than it sounds..
    Ok, 'the mountain' if you can call it that, on dakara was very small it didn't have the size of a hive ship it was more like a mound of rock than a mountain...

    so firstly a hive ship is far bigger than the monument(which is what it actually is) on dakara which probably wasn't designed to withstand heavy attacks from orbit but still withstood at least half a dozen focued hits without exploding...

    the hive ship by comparrassion is far larger and relies on armor solely for defense, so it's logical to assume that this armor would be advanced and able to withstand alot of stress...which it has been shown to do e.g nuke hit...


    Yet when even less impressive examples occur in Sateda, where the hive blasts fail to even destroy a metal barrel that it hits head on, we're told that the same weapons are supposed to be in the multi-GT range.
    we have visual evidence of wraith weapons doing far more damage but if want to ignore that then here's a picture for you...



    the blasts you keep refering to from sateda were about the size of a puddle jumper, the blast i've shown above is bigger than the deadalus probably a thousand times larger than the one in sateda, are you saying that blast in excess of 700m long carries the same yield as an amram and the same energy as one about a thousandth of it's size?

    oh and here's another picture of wraith blasts doing alot more damage...


    here's some close up images of these blasts more comparable to a nuke than to an amram...




    the blasts in sateda are comparable to dart shots and are within the established fire power ranges for darts, it's absurd to think that hive ships are armed with dart canons...

    Did it? Or were those secondary explosions that came from all the completely unprotected, highly violatile system that you claim that John managed to find at least three of the first time he was walking on the Wraith ship with no prior experience with alien technology, back when time was crucial and ship destruction wasn't even a main priority?

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/102x464.html

    Either the Wraith ships are fragile enough to blow up with C4, or there are weak points littered throughout. Again, you can't have it both ways. What we know is that John, with very little knowledge and very little time, managed to do extensive damage to the Wraith ship. There is no reason why an Ori beam couldn't do the same.
    so the wraith ship was so badly damaged that it could get up and fly away and break orbit covered in tones of rock

    we don't no where the C4 was placed all we can actually see is smoke, there aren't any massive craters in the ships the implie massive damage, if you let off explosives in a confined space there's going to be fires and damage and we're talking about internal explosions, and the ori beam would have to pierce the hull before it could cause such explosions...

    remember in counter strike
    Spoiler:
    cam and tealc thought that could actually destroy an ori ship with C4
    ...

    the truth is if wraith weapons and armor are so weak they'd be far easier to destroy, heck fighers could cause serious damage and yet we don't see f-302's taking shots at the wraith hull, only at the exposed area's like hyperdrives...
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Mitch and Teal'c placed the C4 near (what they assumed to be) the power-core of the ship, therefore it'll obviously be the explosive force of the damaged powercore that's gonna destroy the ship, and not the C4 itself.

  12. #52
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by PG15 View Post
    Mitch and Teal'c placed the C4 near (what they assumed to be) the power-core of the ship, therefore it'll obviously be the explosive force of the damaged powercore that's gonna destroy the ship, and not the C4 itself.
    thats the whole point, we don't know where the C4 was placed, an internal explosion is an internal explosion we don't know what was affected by it, and it's an absurd statement to say C4 can cripple hive ships, when if well placed it could cripple an ori ship aswell...
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    Ok, 'the mountain' if you can call it that, on dakara was very small it didn't have the size of a hive ship it was more like a mound of rock than a mountain...
    {snip} Unlike a hive ship, the Dakara mountain is almost entirely solid, where as the hive ship would be mostly hollow and contain highly violatile systems.

    the hive ship by comparrassion is far larger and relies on armor solely for defense, so it's logical to assume that this armor would be advanced and able to withstand alot of stress...
    Circular reasoning. "A lot" is a highly relative term.

    we have visual evidence of wraith weapons doing far more damage but if want to ignore that then here's a picture for you...
    Wow, so energy and charged matter spreads out and disperses and gets larger as it travels through empty space? In terms of sheer power, that proves, let's see... absolutely nothing. It's like pointing out the spread of a buckshot expands after it's been fired, and using it to argue that that the buckshot must be superpowerful.

    oh and here's another picture of wraith blasts doing alot more damage...
    Wow, it looks comparable to the amount of damage that John managed to do with simple C4. Maybe because they hit the same systems that John supposedly did?

    so the wraith ship was so badly damaged that it could get up and fly away and break orbit covered in tones of rock
    Wow, space ships are designed so that they can take external damage and still function in space, especially assuming that they have time to do repairs? {Snip}.

    we don't no where the C4 was placed all we can actually see is smoke, there aren't any massive craters in the ships the implie massive damage,
    Watch the episode, you can see the explosions yourself.

    if you let off explosives in a confined space there's going to be fires and damage and we're talking about internal explosions, and the ori beam would have to pierce the hull before it could cause such explosions...
    And why wouldn't it be able to do that?

    remember in counter strike
    Spoiler:
    cam and tealc thought that could actually destroy an ori ship with C4
    ...
    Yes, because they had people with technical expertise on their ship, and prior experience with the technology. Sheppard and Ford did not.

    the truth is if wraith weapons and armor are so weak they'd be far easier to destroy, heck fighers could cause serious damage and yet we don't see f-302's taking shots at the wraith hull, only at the exposed area's like hyperdrives...
    That's because the 302s have a finite number of missiles, which usually get intercepted by the darts. Flying in close enough to fire directly would put them in harm's way, since they would be outnumbered 50:1.

    Further, the fact that John would target the most important system doesn't mean that the rest of the system isn't vulnerable too. That's like saying, "Osama Bin Laden had airplanes fly into the WTC on 9/11, because he knew thw that every other building in the country would be tough enough to withstand the attack!" No, Bin Laden had airplanes fly into WTC because it was a high priority target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    thats the whole point, we don't know where the C4 was placed, an internal explosion is an internal explosion we don't know what was affected by it, and it's an absurd statement to say C4 can cripple hive ships, when if well placed it could cripple an ori ship aswell...
    Right. So John managed to access and identify highly violatile, completely unguarded, unprotected, and unarmored systems. Completely off camera, becuase hey, no one wants to see that. Three times. All on his way to find his friends. With a lifesigns detector to guide him. On limited time. With no real experience with alien tech. Or no prior knowledge of Wraith tech. Without once getting captured.

    But hey, that doesn't mean that the Ori couldn't hit these same systems as well.

    P.S. Here's another picture of lightning from space. How many GT would you say this is?

    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 12:38 AM.

  14. #54
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    [QUOTE=Schrodinger82;5920131]Which could still be far enough away to dampen massive heating and expansion.[quote]

    Sure. A multi megaton or gigaton nuke that explodes a few hundred meters away from the surface, or even less, is going to loose soooo much energy. Yes. Obviously.

    Which would depend heavily distance. Also keep in mind that the part of the armor that heated up would move omnidirectionally, rather in a in a single direction away for the bomb.
    Bravo, you described the principle of a quake, which was my point. I never claimed that the wave would go only one way. It would help to actually read what people say.

    Because you were wrong, your arguments were vague, unsubstantiated, circular, and directly contradicted by Sateda, the Siege, NML, and Fail Safe. {Snip}

    My arguments were not wrong, nor vague, nor unsubstantiated, nor circular (I wonder how they could, since it's direct observation -> conclusion, size of the explosions = x amounts of energy; {snip}), and above, perfectly in line with rationalizations from other episodes.
    Sateda? IF coming from a hiveship, they're just dialed down ( you {snip}claim that Sateda corresponds to the max yields?). Or they come from darts, and everybody's happy safe , as usual.
    The Siege? Irrelevant.
    No Man's Land? Irrelevant.
    Fail Safe? Irrelevant, unless you want to argue that a naqahdah filled asteroid as any relevance to the observation of the size of fireballs occuring at the surface of a planet which is fired at.

    Of course, it's easier to {snip} refuse rationalization and only go head to head and happily enjoy contradictions, nevermind if your explanation of Misbegotten {snip}.

    {Snip}

    What nuclear explosion? The beamed cleaved straight through the ship, cutting through all its armor in the process.
    {snip}
    I was saying that the armour is able to withstand gigatons of energy, yet was pierced by a thick beam powered by, at best, a reactor that could eventually release a few tens of kilotons of energy. I said this shows that the ancient beam is more about an exotic mechanism than about raw energy transfer.

    But there, you said that it proved the gigaton-level armour claim wrong, as a kiloton level beam could not destroy a gigaton level armour, so I was wrong in claiming some gigaton level armour.

    Of course, this would stand if we were talking about pure energy direct transfer, which of course we're not.
    If it had been the case, then the beam going through the ship's would have released its energy through the far less armoured inner structure and artificial atmosphere of the hive, which obviously is all you need to fuel a several kiloton nuclear type explosions (remember that nifty part about fireballs in atmosphere, 82), with all the blinding flashes and that.
    Which did not happen, of course.

    So we're not dealing with a mainly DET weapon, but with some kind of funny exotic crisp, and thus the argument against the gigaton level armour is null.

    No, they just have the ability to penetrate through solid matter as though it weren't even there (including going in one end of a hive ship and out the other, and then going against for a second trip), and be mentally operated to attack specific targets. e.g., the types of targets that Jack O Neil would be aware of that would serve as weak points in the ships construction.

    The purpose of the drones isn't that they're massively explosive, the purpose of the drones is that they completely ignore defense. Now, if you're saying that the Ori beams operate under the same principles as the drones, well, big plus to the Ori.
    Of course, I do not claim they're the same. {snip}. My point is that Ori beams drill through matter, and of course, with ships, they're ought to hit sensible parts.
    We've seen that two missiles with minor explosive yields is enough to crack up a Ha'tak when hitting sensible points. The theoretical deal is the same here.
    Driller goes through and hit fragile parts ready to blow up at any minute.
    The point is that the beam themselves are not particularily powerful in terms of DET, but that they just happened to hit sensible parts.
    Remember, unshielded Ha'taks can be damaged by puny Al'keshes. It comes as no surprise that a Ha'tak could be pierced by weapons that don't even atomize mountains.
    If an ori beam NDFes stuff away, then it's another deal.

  15. #55
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    Big deal. Unlike a hive ship, the Dakara mountain is almost entirely solid, where as the hive ship would be mostly hollow and contain highly violatile systems.
    the beam still has to pierce the armor which i expect would be harder than rock...

    the fact remains the beam took multiple shots to pierce a few dozen metres of rock, hive armor is roughly as thick in places and probably harder...


    Circular reasoning. "A lot" is a highly relative term.
    the fact remains it withstood a nuke hit (whether it was naquadah enhanced or not is debatable) and still owned the deadalus, only the secondary explosions in the dart bays brought it to a draw...


    Wow, so energy and charged matter spreads out and disperses and gets larger as it travels through empty space? In terms of sheer power, that proves, let's see... absolutely nothing. It's like pointing out the spread of a buckshot expands after it's been fired, and using it to argue that that the buckshot must be superpowerful.
    {Snip} the blast doesn't expand as it leaves the hive ship...

    and what makes you think energy blasts even do that atall?

    the fact is we've seen many different sizes of wraith blast so your reasoning it expands in space is moot without evidence your making up a {snip}theory to escape the truth use actual show evidence next time...

    remember siege III? the blasts from the hive ships don't change size as they leave the ship and reach atlantis...

    assuming your {snip} theory is right you're saying the blast increase in size by 1000% is a mere illusion?

    Wow, it looks comparable to the amount of damage that John managed to do with simple C4. Maybe because they hit the same systems that John supposedly did?
    utter rubbish seeing as the C4 was inside the ship, {snip}...so all 3 dozen hits hit the same vital systems more than once???

    or maybe the wraith vital systems are stuck to the hull?

    the fact is i have given you evidence just as valid as your sateda evidence showing higher wraith yields...

    Wow, space ships are designed so that they can take external damage and still function in space, especially assuming that they have time to do repairs? Yes, shocking.
    internal explosions actually there's a huge difference...what makes you so sure the C4 wasn't next to outside of the ship...

    you're the one who keeps claiming that the C4 caused massive damage to the hive...

    taking a page from your book when you responded to explosions visable from space in misbegotten...just cause you can see the explosions doesn't mean they're actually that big

    Watch the episode, you can see the explosions yourself.
    wow, an explosive went off...and shock there was an explosion!!!



    And why wouldn't it be able to do that?
    because it struggles to break down a mound of rock


    Yes, because they had people with technical expertise on their ship, and prior experience with the technology. Sheppard and Ford did not.
    ok what prior experience did they have i doubt vala and daniel had a tour while they were on board and they didn't tell them where to put the explosives...

    the fact is unless you know where the explosives were placed your point carries no weight...


    That's because the 302s have a finite number of missiles, which usually get intercepted by the darts. Flying in close enough to fire directly would put them in harm's way, since they would be outnumbered 50:1.
    {snip}the fact is that f-302's have the maneuverablity to get in close enough to fire we saw that in No Mans Land...

    amrams fired at close range are far harder to intercept than nukes, and anyway it would only take afew dozen as seen in 'the hive'...

    the fact is we've seen dart fire hitting hives in the same episode and it doesn't even damage the hive ship, and darts have shown firepower similar to whats been seen in sateda and amrans, are you saying that a hive ships arnaments consists of a couple dozen dart guns??

    that still doesn't change the fact that a fleet of wraith ships can drain a planet destroying Z.P.M in days...

    Further, the fact that John would target the most important system doesn't mean that the rest of the system isn't vulnerable too. That's like saying, "Osama Bin Laden had airplanes fly into the WTC on 9/11, because he knew thw that every other building in the country would be tough enough to withstand the attack!" No, Bin Laden had airplanes fly into WTC because it was a high priority target.
    these are warships!!! built by a civilisation hundreds of years more advanced than ours and you think they can be beaten by amrams???

    heck if that were true a couple of puddle jumps could demolish them!!!

    so me an amram doing considerable damage to the hull of a hive ship and i'll believe you, i've already proved hive weapons are more powerful than that...

    Right. So John managed to access and identify highly violatile, completely unguarded, unprotected, and unarmored systems. Completely off camera, becuase hey, no one wants to see that. Three times. All on his way to find his friends. On limited time. Without once getting captured.

    But hey, that doesn't mean that the Ori couldn't hit these same systems as well.
    no because these system are inside the ship, well we evidence that a block of C4 can destroy an ori ship aswell so i guess the ships are both as fragile as each other...
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 12:45 AM.
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Sure. A multi megaton or gigaton nuke
    No evidence of this, circular reasoning. Try again.

    My arguments were not wrong, nor vague, nor unsubstantiated, nor circular (I wonder how they could, since it's direct observation -> conclusion, size of the explosions = x amounts of energy;
    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0580.html
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    Hey look everyone, multi-gigaton explosions taking place all over the globe in both pictures! The "direct observation" says so.

    Oh wait, the hive blasts are different, you say. How do we know they're different? Because they're multi-gt, where as the lightning bolts are not. Since hive blasts are multi-gt while the lightning bolts are not, they couldn't possible be operating under similar principles.

    Clearly, this isn't circular at all.

    The Siege? Irrelevant.
    No Man's Land? Irrelevant.
    Fail Safe? Irrelevant,
    Yes, everything is irrelevant when it disagrees with you. In the Siege, 6 GT level nukes are supposed to be the main line of defense. The Wraith apparently see them as enough of a threat to take them out with asteroids, 100 of which are apparently enough to blow up every single nuke (implying that they have quite a large proximatey.). But we're supposed to believe that each individual hive blast is more powerful than al these nukes combined, and that even a severely damaged hive ship can withstand hundreds of them.

    That makes perfect sense. Far more sense than say, "Hey, I have comparable pictures of lightning doing the same thing, so maybe hive blasts are visible for the same reason?"

    {snip}
    I was saying that the armour is able to withstand gigatons of energy, yet was pierced by a thick beam powered by, at best, a reactor that could eventually release a few tens of kilotons of energy. I said this shows that the ancient beam is more about an exotic mechanism than about raw energy transfer.
    There actions from "The Siege" diasgrees with you. Actually, everything does. Except for your own circular reasoning.

    "The hive armor must be able to withstand multi-gt because they can withstand hive blasts, and the hive blasts must be multi-gt in order to hurt the hive armor." The problem being that you can substitute any value in place of "multi-gt", and it would make just as much sense.

    At which point, you fall back on independent evidence of how strong the hive blasts and hive armor are. e.g., Rising, Sateda, NML, and the Siege. Maybe a naquadah reactor was able to harm a hive ship, because that's all you need. No exotic principles required.

    If it had been the case, then the beam going through the ship's would have released its energy through the far less armoured inner structure and artificial atmosphere of the hive, which obviously is all you need to fuel a several kiloton nuclear type explosions (remember that nifty part about fireballs in atmosphere, 82), with all the blinding flashes and that.
    Right, because that's exactly how nuclear explosions are caused, too. Remember in Ethon, how the satellite punched a hole clean through the prometheus, and how it triggered a nuclear explosion as a result? Because that's what happened. {snip}
    Of course, I do not claim they're the same. {Snip} My point is that Ori beams drill through matter, and of course, with ships, they're ought to hit sensible parts.
    Which are apparently highly plentiful and accessible on Wraith ships. See: Rising.

    We've seen that two missiles with minor explosive yields is enough to crack up a Ha'tak when hitting sensible points. The theoretical deal is the same here.
    Yes, after being controlled by Jack O Neill, who had previous access to Ha'tak blueprints and knew the absolute best points to hit.

    It comes as no surprise that a Ha'tak could be pierced by weapons that don't even atomize mountains.
    If an ori beam NDFes stuff away, then it's another deal.
    Right, because atomizing mountains is just so easy, too!
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 12:48 AM.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    I would like to point out, that ..energy based weapons are not rated by mT gT or kT.. but in the watts.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    the beam still has to pierce the armor which i expect would be harder than rock...
    Really? Even the windows? Where's your evidence? Do you even know what type of "rock" this entirely alien mountain was made from?

    the fact remains the beam took multiple shots to pierce a few dozen metres of rock, hive armor is roughly as thick in places and probably harder...
    Feel free to back up either with something other than personal speculation.

    the fact remains it withstood a nuke hit (whether it was naquadah enhanced or not is debatable) and still owned the deadalus, only the secondary explosions in the dart bays brought it to a draw...
    Wow, it owned a ship that's less than 1/1000th it's total volume. Very impressive. Oh wait, the Daedalus completely crippled it and took it over that hive ship, despite the fact that the hive ship previously ambushed the Daedalus 2:1 while it was completely unshielded. How is that "owning," pray tell?

    stop making this up with no evidence, the blast doesn't expand as it leaves the hive ship...
    Diffussion. Look it up.

    remember siege III? the blasts from the hive ships don't change size as they leave the ship and reach atlantis...
    Shorter distance.

    utter rubbish seeing as the C4 was inside the ship
    An Ori beam would have no trouble making its way inside as well.

    {snip}...so all 3 dozen hits hit the same vital systems more than once???
    Apparently they're littered all over if John managed to find three of them.

    internal explosions actually there's a huge difference...what makes you so sure the C4 wasn't next to outside of the ship...
    Which would only prove that the hull isn't as tough as you think.

    taking a page from your book when you responded to explosions visable from space in misbegotten...just cause you can see the explosions doesn't mean they're actually that big
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    ok what prior experience did they have i doubt vala and daniel had a tour while they were on board and they didn't tell them where to put the explosives...
    A lot more than what John and Ford had.

    {snip}the fact is that f-302's have the maneuverablity to get in close enough to fire we saw that in No Mans Land...
    Yes, and at great risk to the pilot. What's your point?

    the fact is we've seen dart fire hitting hives in the same episode and it doesn't even damage the hive ship, and darts have shown firepower similar to whats been seen in sateda and amrans, are you saying that a hive ships arnaments consists of a couple dozen dart guns??
    Well, obviously the hive ships thought that the dart attacks warranted a counter response in "The Hive," rather than simply ignoring them, or wondering why the other hive ship was using their absolutely puniest weapons. The Hive ships are more powerful than the darts, but how much more powerful remains to be seen.

    that still doesn't change the fact that a fleet of wraith ships can drain a planet destroying Z.P.M in days...
    Yeah, and turning on the lights on atlantis for less than a day can take hundreds of years off the shield life, and simply occupyiying the gate room can create a notable drain on power.
    Last edited by TameFarrar; October 29th, 2006 at 12:50 AM.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Schrodinger82 View Post
    No evidence of this, circular reasoning. Try again.
    No circular reasoning.
    Point me to a nuke fired by the Daedalus that's clearly been way below the megaton range and you may have a point, or even one that's capable to release a near 2 km fireball in vacuum.

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s3/3...otten0580.html
    http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/i...from-space.gif

    Hey look everyone, multi-gigaton explosions taking place all over the globe in both pictures! The "direct observation" says so.

    Oh wait, the hive blasts are different, you say. How do we know they're different? Because they're multi-gt, where as the lightning bolts are not. Since hive blasts are multi-gt while the lightning bolts are not, they couldn't possible be operating under similar principles.

    Clearly, this isn't circular at all.
    Sure, we didn't cover the point about how almost cloudless the very precise zone where the bolts landed was.
    Oh. Wait. We did, but you conveniently dismissed it in the last thread.
    If it was only that, but the overall cloud density within a several hundreds kilometers radius is strikingly dissimilar when we look at your storm picture and at Misbegotten's grab.
    Oh, nevermind, since it's perfectly valid to assume that it's all about a storm, and all about clouds, ain't it?

    In the Siege, 6 GT level nukes are supposed to be the main line of defense. The Wraith apparently see them as enough of a threat to take them out with asteroids, 100 of which are apparently enough to blow up every single nuke (implying that they have quite a large proximatey.). But we're supposed to believe that each individual hive blast is more powerful than al these nukes combined, and that even a severely damaged hive ship can withstand hundreds of them.
    And the Wraith knew about the nukes' yield... how?
    Not to say that at that time, the terrans had really no real idea as to how much energy was necessary to shoot down a hiveship from the outside.
    So you're making up stuff, again.
    As for the rest, we can see that you have nothing worth it to add to your defense regarding the complete irrelevance of those references you made.
    That's a gentle concession that a I finely accept.

    There actions from "The Siege" diasgrees with you. Actually, everything does. Except for your own circular reasoning.
    Well, considering the very faulty logic you've demonstrated regarding your Siege based reasoning, I'm not afraid to just ignore that {snip} comment of yours.

    "The hive armor must be able to withstand multi-gt because they can withstand hive blasts, and the hive blasts must be multi-gt in order to hurt the hive armor."
    The problem being that you can substitute any value in place of "multi-gt", and it would make just as much sense.
    BS. You're creating circular reasonings out of the blue.
    The real reasoning... you know it, but you're feeling fine with swinging strawmen in spades.

    At which point, you fall back on independent evidence of how strong the hive blasts and hive armor are. e.g., Rising, Sateda, NML, and the Siege. Maybe a naquadah reactor was able to harm a hive ship, because that's all you need. No exotic principles required.
    Nope. Have you, for example, considered the kind of forces a hiveship's bare hull might go against well flying full throttle through the multi million kelvin (very hot) accretion disk of a black hole, by any chance?

    Not even counting the gravity here.

    Right, because that's exactly how nuclear explosions are caused, too.
    As far as I'm concerned, yes, that's the way they are, until you actually have a nice theory ready to debunk like decades of evidence regarding nuclear tests and direct transmission of energy into surrounding matter, especially air, to fuel gigantic fireballs.

    {snip}

    Remember in Ethon, how the satellite punched a hole clean through the prometheus, and how it triggered a nuclear explosion as a result? Because that's what happened. {snip}
    *sigh*
    Please. The final explosion occured years after the final beam hit the ship.
    {snip}

    Which are apparently highly plentiful and accessible on Wraith ships. See: Rising.
    See a 11 km long flying barn.
    Plus ori beams obviously have certain limits, since only one of them is not enough to overwhelm asgard shields.
    One would wonder what that limit in power would mean anything against armor like the Wraith's one, if there was a link between the beam mechanics and its effects on matter.

    Yes, after being controlled by Jack O Neill, who had previous access to Ha'tak blueprints and knew the absolute best points to hit.
    Carter suggested that he had been lucky, which is fairly possible.
    It's even possible that drones can reach for the point which seems to emit the most energy.
    After all, Jack already had access to those blueprints since the first seasons of SG-1, yet he didn't limit himself to two drones per Ha'tak in Lost City.
    {snip}.

    In the end, it does not change the fact that the puny missiles hit sensible parts, and the end result was the total destruction of the Ha'tak, pretty much the way the Ori beat them up.
    Looking at the sheer size of an ori beam in comparison to a Ha'tak, it's more ought to touch one of those sensible parts when making its way through the superstructure, without even having to aim at anything in particular.

    Now, notice how, in No Man's Land, an entire drone wave passing through a hiveship wasn't enough to blow it up in just once swipe, but actually had to return inside to actually effectively damage it, despite the fact that all scientists from the expedition team, including Zelenka, previously had neat access to complete hiveship blueprints. Nevermind if those plans were erased, because they still saw them, and it's quite easy to vaguely remember where things such as where giant reactors are, for example.

    Right, because atomizing mountains is just so easy, too!
    What?...

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post


    What?...
    He's saying that vaporizing rock earth and other geo materials, is much much harder then vaporizing wraith armor.

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