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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kirmit View Post
    Exactly so the whole Galaxy were not ancients, and would not of all been united, though we could see their technology was nearly as or on par with ancients.
    Uh.. i don't think anyone ever said the entire galexy was ancients... infact, i know it's stated many times through out SG that the ancients seeded other worlds.



    Like I've said with the numbers, the wraith will not outnumber the combined ori forces of their galaxy and of what they've converted in the Milkyway, if the Ori knew the wraith were coming they'd train more warriors and equip them. In terms of the wraith resiliance well we've seen ori staff blast does not act as a normal staff blast, it seems to do more internal damage before causing the body to shut down.
    that's a big if.



    No it wasn't
    actually, it was.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ori_technology_in_Stargate

    after reading my post over, read the bottem quote, i should of put it in "spoiler" or something else to discern it from the other quotes of yours



    If they do have the suggested shielding then yes it will be however like I said we haven't seen enough of them to give a clear assumption
    no argument here.





    If the Ori shields are anywhere close to the Atlantis shield which I think they are it would take hours maybe even days for 3 hives to drain them. In which time the ori beam can take out the hives in 2 maybe 3 shots whilst the secondary fire takes care of crucial weak points like the dart bays. About the fluctuation in the shields, that's what it is a fluctuation they don't get ultra weak and isn't even nearly even time for any blasts to get through, that's why the team suggested beaming but as the wraith don't seem to be able to do this they wouldn't be able to take out the ship.
    this is another big if.



    For the wraith to board them then shields would have to be drained and like I said them won't get the time to do that.
    unknown, the wraith don't seem to have a problem kamakazing a large number of ships inorder to bring down a shield, the shields on a Ori cruiser are not anything like that of atlantis; IIRC Asgard shielding is based on ancient, which the wraith are able to bring down in a matter of minutes, from fire from 2 ships.

  2. #22
    Lieutenant Colonel rarocks24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Pogo01 View Post
    We still have no idea how the Ori shield is powered. From what I see its powered from what looks like a mini-ZPM.
    ....actually, no. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ori are using their ascended knowledge to finalize the Arcturus project, in which case, that's a very bad thing.
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  3. #23
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by rarocks24 View Post
    ....actually, no. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ori are using their ascended knowledge to finalize the Arcturus project, in which case, that's a very bad thing.
    arcturas is impossible on our plane of exsistance, even if the ori themselves are not confined to our laws their tech is so the arcturus project is impossible without direct intervention somrthing the ori cannot do...

    Uh.. i don't think anyone ever said the entire galexy was ancients... infact, i know it's stated many times through out SG that the ancients seeded other worlds.
    the entire galaxy was ancient controlled, like colonies if you like...and the humans of pegasus were nurtured technologically by the ancients anyway...

    either way over the course of 100 years the wraith starting from a most a handful of worlds overwhelmed and conquered the ancients...

    If the Ori shields are anywhere close to the Atlantis shield which I think they are it would take hours maybe even days for 3 hives to drain them. In which time the ori beam can take out the hives in 2 maybe 3 shots whilst the secondary fire takes care of crucial weak points like the dart bays. About the fluctuation in the shields, that's what it is a fluctuation they don't get ultra weak and isn't even nearly even time for any blasts to get through, that's why the team suggested beaming but as the wraith don't seem to be able to do this they wouldn't be able to take out the ship.
    your assumption on the ori shields are unfounded,to say their standard shields are on par with the most powerful shield we've every seen is a huge if without direct evidence and the relatively small bombardment the ori ships have withstood isn't all that impressive and oneill could take it...

    It would take quite a few shots from the ori canon to destroy a hive, it takes multiple to shops to destroy a couple hundred foot of mountain much less several kilometres of hive ship which has thick incredably hard armor...
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post

    the entire galaxy was ancient controlled, like colonies if you like...and the humans of pegasus were nurtured technologically by the ancients anyway...

    either way over the course of 100 years the wraith starting from a most a handful of worlds overwhelmed and conquered the ancients...
    Exactly! thank you, that's my entire point.



    your assumption on the ori shields are unfounded,to say their standard shields are on par with the most powerful shield we've every seen is a huge if without direct evidence and the relatively small bombardment the ori ships have withstood isn't all that impressive and oneill could take it...

    It would take quite a few shots from the ori canon to destroy a hive, it takes multiple to shops to destroy a couple hundred foot of mountain much less several kilometres of hive ship which has thick incredably hard armor...
    ahah! I had forgotten this little tidbit of information, yes the armor on a wraith hive ship, is very... very.. strong, which I would assume is why they don't bother with shield technology.

    the only bombardment i remember on an ori ship was by the hatak class ships, and compaired to like all the other ships.. they suck. lol

    the hive ship is also the largest and one of the most well armed ships EVER constructed, only surpassed by the ancient city ships.

    which is why in my opinion the wraith would probably win.

  5. #25
    Lieutenant Colonel kirmit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    Uh.. i don't think anyone ever said the entire galexy was ancients... infact, i know it's stated many times through out SG that the ancients seeded other worlds.
    So then they wouldn't of been united and fell to the wraith one by one, the Ori though are a united galaxy, a much greater force.

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    I said in my original post I used wiki as a source but it isn't a direct quote

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    unknown, the wraith don't seem to have a problem kamakazing a large number of ships inorder to bring down a shield, the shields on a Ori cruiser are not anything like that of atlantis; IIRC Asgard shielding is based on ancient, which the wraith are able to bring down in a matter of minutes, from fire from 2 ships.
    How is their shielding unlike the Atlantis kind? if anything it should be stronger as it doesn't have as much mass to cover and they are using an obviously very powerful powersource. The Ori are atleast on par with the Lantians, I stress atleast because many think they surpass them, so it stands to reason their shielding would be just as good.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kirmit View Post
    How is their shielding unlike the Atlantis kind? if anything it should be stronger as it doesn't have as much mass to cover and they are using an obviously very powerful powersource. The Ori are atleast on par with the Lantians, I stress atleast because many think they surpass them, so it stands to reason their shielding would be just as good.
    I would assume the size of the shield generator and the amount of power put out by 3 ZPMs. the reason the shield is so strong on atlantis, is the size of the systems, the City ship are the largest mega capital ships in the universe ATM(that we know of, of course.) my point is, they said the ancients could take a hive ship one on one, now from my guess from the ships Aurora and Orion, that those ships main weapon were the drones, which are a super weapon.

    so it's not unreasonable to guess, that the wraith would be in a slightly better position, as that main cannon is powerful indeed, but i would put it on the level with a Tollen Ion cannon, but it isn't a drone system.

    yes you are right stated by that article i posted from wiki, they are on par with the ancients, this is my point their shields are not infallible, and people assume to highly of their weapons, because it's happening in the SG1 universe, where the most powerful things are the asgard or the goa'uld.

    The Haktak is a wimp compaired to a Ori ship or a Wraith ship.

    as mentioned in a post above, it took SEVERAL shots to vaporize a section of mountain, which is dirt, rock.. organic matter.

    it would take ALOT more then just 2 shots to vaporize that hull armor on a wraith hive ship.

  7. #27
    Lieutenant Colonel kirmit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    as mentioned in a post above, it took SEVERAL shots to vaporize a section of mountain, which is dirt, rock.. organic matter.

    it would take ALOT more then just 2 shots to vaporize that hull armor on a wraith hive ship.
    We don't know what that mountain was made from, it was afterall ancient built, so most likely wasn't simply rock.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kirmit View Post
    We don't know what that mountain was made from, it was afterall ancient built, so most likely wasn't simply rock.
    Touche, but we know that atleast the wraith hive ships(which i mention again are the second largest ship ever constructed, the largest if you decided not to count the City ships) will be able to take a number of hits then. there's alot of armor there.

  9. #29
    Lieutenant Colonel kirmit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    Touche, but we know that atleast the wraith hive ships(which i mention again are the second largest ship ever constructed, the largest if you decided not to count the City ships) will be able to take a number of hits then. there's alot of armor there.
    I'm not sure about that, the Ori beam bascially looks the same as the beam that came out of the ancient satellite and that took out a hive in a single shot.

  10. #30
    Lieutenant General DigiFluid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    and even in the prime, with the ancients at their full power (where they controlled most of the galexy) and the populations of worlds were BRIMMING.

    The Wraith pushed them back over a hundred years, without really slowing down, because of numbers, now the entire pegasus galexy is not much more then a few low level or mid level civilizations here and there, because in the 10,000 years after the ancients left. how many cullings were there?

    even the entire galexy militerized by the ancients wasn't enough.
    I doubt very much that the Ancients had militarized Pegasus during their war with the Wraith. In the first place, that's really not their style--every benevolent advanced race we've seen so far absolutely rejects giving advanced technology to less-developed races. It should also be noted that their policy as ascended beings is to never interfere in the development of 'lowers', and that doesn't just come out of nowhere.

    In the second place, in two and a half years in Pegasus, we have yet to find a planet that has advanced defensive or offensive technology. We've found several with protective technology, but never anything along the lines of say, drones or battlecruisers.

    Thirdly, there's a big difference between arming people and leading them on a crusade. I really believe that there's no way the Ancients militarized Pegasus, but even on the off chance that they did, it really wouldn't be the same as an Ori-led war. I don't know if you've been paying attention to the news lately (or even read any history about crusades in our world), but people who believe they're doing things for their god(s) are usually willing to do some pretty extreme and distasteful things to ensure victory.
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  11. #31
    Lieutenant Colonel boberth2o's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Now we know that the Ori have superior fire power, and the Wraith have there strength in numbers,
    The Wraith are a hybrid species, part ancient and part that bug that attached to Sheppard's neck, so the wraith are techniqiuly an ancients but evolved, so the technology they have is a derivative of ancient so if they were to take on the ori toilet warships the hives stand a chance.
    The x-304 can with stand quite alot of hits from the hives fire. Compared to the Ori, the hives could most likely win there's no doubt about it. 3 Ori ships against oh 50 hive ships. No problem for the Wraith

  12. #32
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    The whole thing with the Dakara mountain (especially when taken alongside with how the Ori platform killed the Prometheus) makes it look like the main reason Ori weapons seem so uber is because they're very effective against shields.

    Since Goa'uld, Earth and Asguard ships rely mostly on shields for protection (as opposed to extra heavy armour) the Ori weapon is the perfect tool to destroy them.

    Wraith ships are the exact opposite though. They don't have shields and seem to rely entirely on piling on huge amounts of armour for protection. The Ori weapon is not going to be as dramtically effective against them because, while it's great on shields, it doesn't seem so hot against armour/rock etc.

    A Wraith ship has more in common with an inert solid object like the Dakara mountain than it does with an actively shielded ship like a 304 or Ha'tak.



    I've been wondering about the whole idea of the Ori controlling a Galaxy to.

    Didn't Vala at one point say that there was something like "hundreds of villages on dozens of worlds" under Ori control. In other words far from an entire galaxy.

    They talk about "the Ori galaxy" all the time on the show but that doesn't really automatically mean they control the whole thing, just that it's their galaxy in the sense that they're located there.

    We don't know who would win becuase we don't know enough about both sides. One things for sure though. The Wraith an Ori are definately the two most powerful factions left, with each other being their only real potentially equal adversaries.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    It would take quite a few shots from the ori canon to destroy a hive, it takes multiple to shops to destroy a couple hundred foot of mountain much less several kilometres of hive ship which has thick incredably hard armor...
    Your assumption is that a hive ship would be harder to destroy than several thousand feet worth of solid rock, when we have nothing to indicate that being true. For one thing, there's the fact that the mountain is solid, where as the hive ship is not.

    The last time I checked, I have yet to see a mountain that would sustain the following damage from a few blocks of C4, with no indication of being placed on strategic targets.

    http://www.stargatecaps.com/sga/s1/1...l/102x464.html

  14. #34
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Here's some pics of the Dakara mountain getting blown up. It's actually smaller than I remembered it being. You can see it's not really anything special by the shots of it coming apart to, mostly just dirt and rocks.







    That beam hitting it also doesn't kill Bra'tac and Landrey despite their close proximity, even when the mountain explodes. This puts some pretty hard limits on the amount of energy that was actually released here.

    It's no where near as much as you'd get if you set a nuke off up there that's for sure, let alone a naquada enhanced nuke.

    By contrast we've seen Wraith ships take a contact hit from one of the Daedalus' nuclear missiles and survive. If you used that same missile on the mountain here you wouldn't even be able to ID Bra'Tac and Landrey with DNA evidence afterward.

    So what does that tell us.

    Well in a nutshell the Wraith hulls have taken a hell of a lot more energy than this beam apparently pumps out already, and they've survived it. Thus, unless something wacky happens, this beam, which is apparently weaker vs normal dense materials than shields, shouldn't pose any significantly serious threat to Wraith ships, which are large flying bricks of dense armour.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.

    For example, the Ancient satellite cut right through a Hive, but most of the rest of the ship was virtually undamaged (until it blew up, of course).

    If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.

    Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).

  16. #36
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by kharaa View Post
    City ships are the largest mega capital ships in the universe ATM(that we know of, of course.)
    Well, just because we call it a city? Wraith hiveships, which by all definitions fit the definition of a city in space, are almost 11 km long, while the Lantean city is like 3.5 km large.
    The Gadmeer terraforming ship is even larger than Atlantis.

    If the Ori main weapon is purely shield piercing, then it's going to be almost pointless against Wraith armour.

    On the other hand, Wraith have shown the capacity to drain powersources tied to some of the most advanced shields ever, and able to use more pure DET weapons able to release gigatons of energy on a planet.
    Do not forget that a couple of Goa'ulds helped the Ori by transmitting intel, which could largely be about the kind of forces in presence in the MW galaxy, their advantages, powers and weaknesses. Notably the heavy reliance on shields.

    Buth the Wraith don't use them to protect their ships.

    It's almost like rock paper cisors (or whatever you call it).

    EDIT: please show me evidence that Ori raiders have shields, and good ones may I say, not the kind of crap that get blown up by al'keshes or gliders.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    I think a differences is that the ancients were explores there ships were powerful but not really built for a prolonged war. They were very powerful as we sore a half working o'ryan destroyed a wraith hive. The Ancients also tried to broker a peace right till the end so they were prepaired to accept co-exsitance. Lastly the Ori have worlds to build ships, the ancients had outposts with maybe one ship.

    Overall it shows that Ori would win as they have the technolgoy and will to fight and destroy an enermy.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by PG15 View Post
    I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.
    Pretty much. Nukes are incredibly inefficient in terms of how they deliver their power. The fact that Bra'tac and Landrey would be killed in Ouroboros's scenario is a result of this inefficiency.

    I don't see how a lack of inefficiency should be scene as a weakness on behalf of the Ori, however. It would be like saying incadescent light bulbs are superior to compact florescents, because they run so much hotter. Well, maybe so, but that's not what they should be designed for.

    If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.
    Good point. Even if the beams worked solely on shield draining like people theorize, that doesn't explain how it could punch through the hull.

    Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).
    I'm not sure if the drones prove much, since drones are pretty much unstoppable as far as we know so long as they have an adequate power source. The fact that this magical impervious super thin armor couldn't even be used to shield the hyperdrive engines from a 302 missile proves a lot, however. At the very least, you would expect them to be reinforced as much as possible for the sake of protecting them from the strain of undergoing hyperspace.

    In NML, we see that the Wraith evidence room has windows to the outside. Now, how many more of such rooms might there be on the ship? Unless the Wraith has managed to develop a transparent adamantium alloy, I would reckon that there are more than enough of exposed areas on a hive ship that the Ori beam can punch through. And once the beams make it inside via the windows, what's to stop them from hitting some of the the same systems that John managed to blow up in "Rising"? Seeing as how John supposedly managed to bomb MULTIPLE such completely unshielded systems with no real knoweldge of alien technology or weak points just on his walking path alone, when ship destruction wasn't even his main objective, it's not like they would be very hard to find, even by accident.

  19. #39
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by PG15 View Post
    I'm not so sure of that. Directed beams focus their energy much better than an omni-directional blast from a nuke (believe me, I'm a Trekkie from the land of phasers). It's like comparing an arrow to a frying pan...or something.
    It's possible to create focused nukes nowadays I think.
    Plus the nuke exploded on impact in NML, which means that at least 50% of the nuke's energy being imparted to the armour.

    For example, the Ancient satellite cut right through a Hive, but most of the rest of the ship was virtually undamaged (until it blew up, of course).
    Oh but it's a very exotic machine here, able to shoot down like three hiveships when only powered by a naqahdah generator, which once overloading would only release 20 KT of energy.

    If they were that weak, then you can't really explain how those beams go through entire Hataks, including their shields.
    Ha'taks can be entirely destroyed by two ancient drones.
    Obviously, once something starts to pierce inside a ship, there are very sensible parts waiting behind the hull to explode.

    Also, I wouldn't put all my money on that armor either. We know for a fact that drones can cut through them like nothing, and the unascended Ancients have other tech that allows them to do the same thing. And of course, not all of the Hive is armored (we can see exposed parts in No Man's Land, for example).
    Of course, drones are the most advanced missiles we've seen in Stargate and in many scifi shows. They can explode on impact or on delay, drill, NDF stuff and even appear shielded to some point. Finally, they happily ignored all shields they went against.
    There's not much in Stargate that could actually resist to that.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Ori vs Wraith Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    It's possible to create focused nukes nowadays I think.
    Plus the nuke exploded on impact in NML, which means that at least 50% of the nuke's energy being imparted to the armour.
    Since when do nukes explode on impact? If the hive armor is as tough as you claim, than the nuclear weapon would have squished on impact, thus making a perfectly timed explosion on a perfectly shaped explosive lens impossible. Further, the explosion would consist of radiation, rather than blast.

    Oh but it's a very exotic machine here, able to shoot down like three hiveships when only powered by a naqahdah generator, which once overloading would only release 20 KT of energy.
    Thus showing that the hive ships might not be as tough as people think.

    Ha'taks can be entirely destroyed by two ancient drones.
    Obviously, once something starts to pierce inside a ship, there are very sensible parts waiting behind the hull to explode.
    Drones and beams operate under entirely different principles. For one thing, I've never seen a beam ram through a ship, circle round, and then ram through it again.

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