Blood On the Scales (414)

[pakar]

You forget that the cylons were before their rebbelion the slaves of humanity. Humanity through the cylons practiced institutionalized slavery and that is what started the cycle of blood as Adama himself admitted,correctly, in his speech in the miniseries. Why humanity should be forgiven for that? humanity mast be forgiven for it's atrocities but cylons must not? Only forgiveness from both sides could end the cycle of blood. and if i remember correctly wasn't Gaeta who served Baltar's corrupted administration?

[Infinite-Possibilities]

She wasn't, left to the two traitors the human race'd be doomed, Zarek with all those nukes would be a disaster

He had a perfectly good reason to rebel. You're saying that she since she can't rule humanity she'd rather destroy it herself because she concludes that he can't do the job? Like a "If I can't be President, no-one can" thing? Her speech was that the they should join the Cylons because survival of humanity trumps all other concerns (presumably such as the moral revulsion of making the beings who murdered everyone's families into their new allies). Then suddenly she doesn't care about that and only wants revenge for Adama's "execution". That's just the ultimate in hypocrisy.

You forget that the cylons were before their rebbelion the slaves of humanity. Humanity through the cylons practiced institutionalized slavery and that is what started the cycle of blood as Adama himself admitted,correctly, in his speech in the miniseries. Why humanity should be forgiven for that? humanity mast be forgiven for it's atrocities but cylons must not? Only forgiveness from both sides could end the cycle of blood. and if i remember correctly wasn't Gaeta who served Baltar's corrupted administration?

I'd always assumed they were just machines that later became self aware and decided to wipe out humanity as their first act of sapience. So the Colonies wouldn't have been practicing slavery, the slaves were just machines at first. And it would also mean that the Cylons were the ones that started the cycle of blood with that decision. But the show never goes into detail so fine I can assume they were always as sophisticated as they are now and always alive.

1) None of the Cylons who were slaves are even around anymore, except for the fleet of the First Hybrid. The current Cylons killed (or possibly enslaved) them all. The Skinjobs who weren't from Earth (and thus not involved at all) were all created after the First Cylon War and the Centurions all lack free will.

2) More importantly, collectively blaming all of humanity for that and trying to destroy them is wrong. But doing the same for the Cylons is not because they are literally all exactly the same. Every single individual member of their species (except one or two) was a genocidal monster. You can only be guilty of the things you are responsible for, that's why collectively assigning blame to. Every human can't be responsible for slavery. Every last Cylon is responsible for the genocide. We even saw how they decide things by all voting.

I've said this before, but it's basically the difference between holding the entire German race guilty of the Holocaust because of the Nazi Regime in the real world or holding the entire German race responsible for the Holocaust because every last one of them is an identical copy of Hilter and his 6 closest advisers.

[pakar]

they were all sapient so it was slavery. And why a slave must feel sympathy for his masters? and no the new cylons didn't wipe the old ones out. the old ones wanted their species to evelve into a biological species, And of course as six told balltar humans taught them well. Humanity was (as it is now) full of violence and hate and murder every day

[Infinite-Possibilities]

they were all sapient so it was slavery. And why a slave must feel sympathy for his masters? and no the new cylons didn't wipe the old ones out. the old ones wanted their species to evelve into a biological species, And of course as six told balltar humans taught them well. Humanity was (as it is now) full of violence and hate and murder every day

The old Centurions had free will. The new one do not. Either the Skinjobs enslaved them or they killed them all. Presumably the latter, since in "Razor", Athena mentioned that the legends surrounding the First Hybrid were that a few of the old models escaped being decommissioned. So unless you think that every one of old Cylon models who fought a war so they could be free all subsequently agreed to willingly terminate themselves, the new Cylons must have wiped them out.

Collectively blaming the entirety of humanity is still evil. Although very little of the Cylons' motives actually seem to relate back to what the Colonies did prior to the Cylons' rebellion. Most of the religious Cylons concluded that humanity was too sinful to be allowed to exist, and Cavil hated humans because he believed they were biologically weak and he hated that he had the body of one.

Humans aren't as violent and hateful as the Cylons. Humans also posses traits like empathy and altruism. They are just as much a part of our species as our violent impulses. The Cylons didn't seem to learn from the fact that the humans tried to establish diplomatic relations with them for decades. The idea that the humans deserved to suffer the genocide because sometimes a few of them commit murder was such disgustingly monstrous and ridiculous attitude that clearly only irredeemable villains like the Cylons could have possibly subscribed to it.

Roslin's speech about forgiveness might have worked prior to the Second Cylon War, given all the innocent people the Cylons had murdered by rebelling against slavery. But after the Genocide of the 12 Colonies, there should be no forgiveness for the unforgivable. The very idea was offensive to me, quite frankly. And the reason for that is that every single individual Cylon was guilty because they are all identical copies.

[Alterus]

He had a perfectly good reason to rebel. You're saying that she since she can't rule humanity she'd rather destroy it herself because she concludes that he can't do the job? Like a "If I can't be President, no-one can" thing? Her speech was that the they should join the Cylons because survival of humanity trumps all other concerns (presumably such as the moral revulsion of making the beings who murdered everyone's families into their new allies). Then suddenly she doesn't care about that and only wants revenge for Adama's "execution". That's just the ultimate in hypocrisy.



I'd always assumed they were just machines that later became self aware and decided to wipe out humanity as their first act of sapience. So the Colonies wouldn't have been practicing slavery, the slaves were just machines at first. And it would also mean that the Cylons were the ones that started the cycle of blood with that decision. But the show never goes into detail so fine I can assume they were always as sophisticated as they are now and always alive.

1) None of the Cylons who were slaves are even around anymore, except for the fleet of the First Hybrid. The current Cylons killed (or possibly enslaved) them all. The Skinjobs who weren't from Earth (and thus not involved at all) were all created after the First Cylon War and the Centurions all lack free will.

2) More importantly, collectively blaming all of humanity for that and trying to destroy them is wrong. But doing the same for the Cylons is not because they are literally all exactly the same. Every single individual member of their species (except one or two) was a genocidal monster. You can only be guilty of the things you are responsible for, that's why collectively assigning blame to. Every human can't be responsible for slavery. Every last Cylon is responsible for the genocide. We even saw how they decide things by all voting.

I've said this before, but it's basically the difference between holding the entire German race guilty of the Holocaust because of the Nazi Regime in the real world or holding the entire German race responsible for the Holocaust because every last one of them is an identical copy of Hilter and his 6 closest advisers.

She wasn't trying to destroy humanity she was trying to destroy the Galactica, as far as she knew a clear and present danger to the fleet, and yes it's been made relatively clear that in the fist Cylon war they were on the moral side and were fighting to free themselves from slavery.
And we did use Nazi scientists after the Second World War, it's this simple, a military decision to upgrade the fleets FTL drives was being jeopardised with the whole fleet in danger by mutineers who would have lead humanity to it's end, Period

[Infinite-Possibilities]

She wasn't trying to destroy humanity she was trying to destroy the Galactica, as far as she knew a clear and present danger to the fleet, and yes it's been made relatively clear that in the fist Cylon war they were on the moral side and were fighting to free themselves from slavery.
And we did use Nazi scientists after the Second World War, it's this simple, a military decision to upgrade the fleets FTL drives was being jeopardised with the whole fleet in danger by mutineers who would have lead humanity to it's end, Period

Destroying Galactica would have left humanity defenseless. It would have doomed them as surely as anything. Probably much more surely than not upgrading the FTL drives.

Secondly, a better analogy would have been Israel using Nazi scientists, since that nation was created in the wake of the Holocaust by many of the survivors.

There was more going on than a military decision here. The Cylons were going to become full citizens of the human fleet. It affected everything in the fleet. If there's anything that deserves a mutiny, it's forcing everyone to accept the people who murdered their families into their ranks.

[Alterus]

Destroying Galactica would have left humanity defenseless. It would have doomed them as surely as anything. Probably much more surely than not upgrading the FTL drives.

Secondly, a better analogy would have been Israel using Nazi scientists, since that nation was created in the wake of the Holocaust by many of the survivors.

There was more going on than a military decision here. The Cylons were going to become full citizens of the human fleet. It affected everything in the fleet. If there's anything that deserves a mutiny, it's forcing everyone to accept the people who murdered their families into their ranks.

How is humanity defenceless, Roslin's in command of the bases hip.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

It was a crippled Base ship, wasn't it? Also, it belongs to the Cylons. She could have only protected the fleet as far as they allowed it. And I have my doubts they would be willing to do so in light of Roslin being ousted from power.

[garhkal]

Plus how many raiders were left on it? What of missiles and such? Compared to galactica, i felt that the base ship was NOT going to be any where near as good of a ship for defending the fleet, so her 'threat' to blow the Galactica up was hyperbole.

[Infinite-Possibilities]

Plus how many raiders were left on it? What of missiles and such? Compared to galactica, i felt that the base ship was NOT going to be any where near as good of a ship for defending the fleet, so her 'threat' to blow the Galactica up was hyperbole.

To me it felt like after Zerak told her they had executed Adama, it was her moment of telling him that "Now we all die together."