The Oath (413)

[Back40]

Who wants to bet

Spoiler:

that Hotdog shoots down the viper sent to blow up Roslin's raptor?

I wouldn't bet against you on that one....I'm thinking along the same lines.

[Cloud]

Am I the only one in favour of Gaeta and his rebellion?

I've always liked Gaeta. Poor guy has been through a lot. Star Buck owes him an apology trying to make him beg in the airlock bay. He's lost his leg, he's lost his hope, and his Admiral broke the law by illegally arresting the vice president. And the Second in Command is cylon.

Hypocrisy is:
Adama has forgiven everyone else for everything that they've done. Even Baltar got off scott free. Gaeta should be forgiven. He's done everything that was asked of him and has gotten frakked in return (lost a leg). And Star Buck better not flip out at Gaeta because her husband was the one who pulled the trigger.

I'm curious: what oath does the title of this episode refer to? Gaeta broke his oath to Adaman by mutiny. But Adama broke his oath to the colonies by illegally arresting the vice president and running a virtual dictatorship -- remember the descussion they had in CiC when Gaeta pointed out that the colonial ships refusing to be boarded by cylons were doing nothing wrong? Adama replied that it was a military decision, Gaeta asked who gets to make that decision (you?) and Adama said yes (Adama was wrong).

So really, the rebellion is legal.

Cloud

[Flyboy]

Am I the only one in favour of Gaeta and his rebellion?

I've always liked Gaeta. Poor guy has been through a lot. Star Buck owes him an apology trying to make him beg in the airlock bay. He's lost his leg, he's lost his hope, and his Admiral broke the law by illegally arresting the vice president. And the Second in Command is cylon.

Hypocrisy is:
Adama has forgiven everyone else for everything that they've done. Even Baltar got off scott free. Gaeta should be forgiven. He's done everything that was asked of him and has gotten frakked in return (lost a leg). And Star Buck better not flip out at Gaeta because her husband was the one who pulled the trigger.

I'm curious: what oath does the title of this episode refer to? Gaeta broke his oath to Adaman by mutiny. But Adama broke his oath to the colonies by illegally arresting the vice president and running a virtual dictatorship -- remember the descussion they had in CiC when Gaeta pointed out that the colonial ships refusing to be boarded by cylons were doing nothing wrong? Adama replied that it was a military decision, Gaeta asked who gets to make that decision (you?) and Adama said yes (Adama was wrong).

So really, the rebellion is legal.

Cloud

Erm... no. The Rebellion was not legal. Not in any way shape nor form. The alliance with cylons is legal. The final four have been given amnesty - legal. Yes, Adama acted inappropriatly with regards to the ships policies on cylons, but that does not mean that mutiny, or indeed any form of a coup d'etate is legal.

[boeli]

if they reallly had teh best intentions they wouldnt have killed that crewman larry or something and they wouldnt have tried to shoot Lee they would simply have taken him prisoner.
arresting zarek was ( in my oppinion) legal as he ordered a ship vital to the survival of the fleet to rebel, kill two marines and a cylon and then jump away with all their fuel.
i belief that cain once said that military prioritys outrank civilian once or something like that dont you think that jumping further while preserving fuel is a military priority

just my thoughts and i apolpogise if there are any spelling mistakes in advance

[Flyboy]

if they reallly had teh best intentions they wouldnt have killed that crewman larry or something and they wouldnt have tried to shoot Lee they would simply have taken him prisoner.
arresting zarek was ( in my oppinion) legal as he ordered a ship vital to the survival of the fleet to rebel, kill two marines and a cylon and then jump away with all their fuel.
i belief that cain once said that military prioritys outrank civilian once or something like that dont you think that jumping further while preserving fuel is a military priority

just my thoughts and i apolpogise if there are any spelling mistakes in advance

The military is a tool of policy, and as such, must always rest at the hands of the political leadership, and should not be able to make policy decisions on their own, a military decision that a civilian leader should have no part in, is in strategic or tactical decisions, but the Objective that the strategy is set to achieve should be set out by a civilian authority.

[jaredh]

The military is a tool of policy, and as such, must always rest at the hands of the political leadership, and should not be able to make policy decisions on their own, a military decision that a civilian leader should have no part in, is in strategic or tactical decisions, but the Objective that the strategy is set to achieve should be set out by a civilian authority.

I don't get these types of comments in the context of the show. Put yourself in their position. To be honest, the government should have been abolished a long time ago. All it does is server to slow down decision making for a group of people who need to be as agile as they can be. A representative body for extremely key decisions (like, we are going to colonized this planet, not that one) is really the only useful purpose to have any type of government.

ALL the decisions on where they go, who gets fuel, who gets repairs, etc should be carried out exclusively by the people who keep them alive...and that's the military.

The people on those little ships may not like it, but I bet they would like seeing the big military ship jump off leaving them behind even worse....and that is exactly where they are pushing them to.

It is rapidly approaching "every man for himself" standing and who says Zarak isn't about to jump on galactica and say "to hell" with all the other ships? He'll keep the ones required to keep Galactica going and go. In that type of situation, I'm not sure why they haven't done it already, honesty.

Adama has been pacifying them for quite some time. They really hit an every man for themself standing when the cylons found them on New Caprica. They really should have reorganzied the fleet from a ship perspective long ago, reducing the number of ships down to a much smaller level, scraping the rest of them for parts. It is what Cain did, and yes, when she did it was a horrible act.

The fact of the matter is, if any of them are going to survive at all, they need to get their act together, drop kick anybody that doesn't want to march in line (seems like the vast majority of them) and get on their way.

[Flyboy]

I don't get these types of comments in the context of the show. Put yourself in their position. To be honest, the government should have been abolished a long time ago. All it does is server to slow down decision making for a group of people who need to be as agile as they can be. A representative body for extremely key decisions (like, we are going to colonized this planet, not that one) is really the only useful purpose to have any type of government.

ALL the decisions on where they go, who gets fuel, who gets repairs, etc should be carried out exclusively by the people who keep them alive...and that's the military.

The people on those little ships may not like it, but I bet they would like seeing the big military ship jump off leaving them behind even worse....and that is exactly where they are pushing them to.

It is rapidly approaching "every man for himself" standing and who says Zarak isn't about to jump on galactica and say "to hell" with all the other ships? He'll keep the ones required to keep Galactica going and go. In that type of situation, I'm not sure why they haven't done it already, honesty.

Adama has been pacifying them for quite some time. They really hit an every man for themself standing when the cylons found them on New Caprica. They really should have reorganzied the fleet from a ship perspective long ago, reducing the number of ships down to a much smaller level, scraping the rest of them for parts. It is what Cain did, and yes, when she did it was a horrible act.

The fact of the matter is, if any of them are going to survive at all, they need to get their act together, drop kick anybody that doesn't want to march in line (seems like the vast majority of them) and get on their way.

Admiral Cain did exactly that. Look what happened to the Battlestar Pegasus.


The question is, what are they fighting to survive for? They're trying to live, not just to fight. If the only ships in the fleet were military, than fine. But unless every single civilian is drafted onto the Galactica and any concept of having some form of society is thrown away, a government MUST be in place. Adama's responsibility is security, keeping people alive, defending the fleet yes. But there is MORE to life than defence when that which you are defending is a society.

A military commander without a civilian behind him declaring policy is a dangerous thing, and that way lies the authoritarian regimes that we see all over the Third World. Now don't get me wrong, I am (obviously) very pro-military. But I'm also a realist in the truest sense of the word. And sure, Adama could have his military dictatorship, and it might be more efficient, but at what cost. Do you know why in the real world more and more 'Orwellian' Anti-Terrorism legisilation keeps springing up? Because in an autocratic society it would be entirely possibly to stamp out terrorism. Tighter control means increased security. But that is unacceptable. There comes a point when society's values can't be cast aside. I personally believe our Governments in reality know when to stop - but would they in BSG? Despite Adama's good intentions?

It's not enough to simply survive. The civilians have to live.

[Bruman]

I'm excited about the continuation of Battlestar tonight.

Regarding what "The Oath" refers to, I interpreted the oath to mean the oath that officers swear upon receiving their commission. Adama shouts "You swore an oath!" when Gaeta takes control. And Gaeta says that his mutiny is justified because Adama was untrue to the very same oath. So that's what the oath is about. Military officers tend to take oaths like that seriously, since it is connected to soldierly honor, which is a big thing in the military, because it is part of how the military separates killing in war from murder during peace.

Civilian participation is both good and useful for the military. When civilians are on board, the military doesn't need to expend resources policing them. And Adama himself generally wants to have a functioning government, he just hates the thought of Zarek being in control.

And, although I want Adama and Rosslyn to stay in power personally, I don't think Zarek is really just out for himself. Maybe he is, but it's not at all clear. Zarek makes a lot of valid points. Throughout the entire series, Rosslyn has never been elected President. She became president by being 40-something in the line of succession. She lost an election to Baltar. She became President again by appointment-then-resignation by Zarek after New Caprica, and even that was because Zarek realized that Adama would not support Zarek as presidency. In "Collaborators," Adama says "your presidency is a joke," after the secret trials are traced to his authorization.

And even in this rebellion, Zarek is the legitimate President (with Rosslyn incapacitated/not present). He WAS actually elected on Baltar's ticket, and was Rosslyn's vice-president after New Caprica. When Zarek said "I'm running the government," Adama replied "For now...," essentially threatening a coup d'etat - something he has done before. Last time Rosslyn was out of the picture, Lee was pushed to the presidency in order to bypass Zarek. So basically the civilian authority is threatened with a coup d'etat from the military and decides to pre-empt it by supporting a mutiny led by junior officers.

These things generally end badly, because even if the junior officers take control, they typically don't trust the civilian authority afterwards.

[Bruman]

OK, I changed my mind about Zarek. OMFG!

[huntress]

God that was goooooood. Television doesn't get much better then this. I could really cry that the show is almost over. BSG is REALLY the best thing on television.
<mod snip....please talk about eps 414 in the appropriate thread, thanks >

ROCK ON GALACTICA! YOU ARE THE BEST!

[Flyboy]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa!

Spoilers!

[Cloud]

Yet another reason to thank Gaeta: if he didn't decide to stage a coup then Tyrol wouldn't have gone down to the FTL drive and noticed the Fractures. Yup, Gaeta saved them all

[Pharaoh Atem]

best ep of the series IMO next to exodus and it's about time the old starbuck came back

it's great to see have dark feelix has become with dee's death earth and his leg he's truly gone to the edge

the cliffhanger was great adama and saul in the same room willing to fight to retake the ship who would have thought that after "revelations" >??

[AresLover452]

I loved the OATH because R/A had THAT kiss!!! SMOKING!!!!

Then yes we got to see our OLD Starbuck come back to rid Galactica of the rats that infested the ship.

[Morganrone93]

GAETA, I am coming for you! I WILL unleash hell upon you, you frakker!