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Thread: The Oath (413)

  1. #201

    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Officer Bennett View Post
    The military is a tool of policy, and as such, must always rest at the hands of the political leadership, and should not be able to make policy decisions on their own, a military decision that a civilian leader should have no part in, is in strategic or tactical decisions, but the Objective that the strategy is set to achieve should be set out by a civilian authority.
    I don't get these types of comments in the context of the show. Put yourself in their position. To be honest, the government should have been abolished a long time ago. All it does is server to slow down decision making for a group of people who need to be as agile as they can be. A representative body for extremely key decisions (like, we are going to colonized this planet, not that one) is really the only useful purpose to have any type of government.

    ALL the decisions on where they go, who gets fuel, who gets repairs, etc should be carried out exclusively by the people who keep them alive...and that's the military.

    The people on those little ships may not like it, but I bet they would like seeing the big military ship jump off leaving them behind even worse....and that is exactly where they are pushing them to.

    It is rapidly approaching "every man for himself" standing and who says Zarak isn't about to jump on galactica and say "to hell" with all the other ships? He'll keep the ones required to keep Galactica going and go. In that type of situation, I'm not sure why they haven't done it already, honesty.

    Adama has been pacifying them for quite some time. They really hit an every man for themself standing when the cylons found them on New Caprica. They really should have reorganzied the fleet from a ship perspective long ago, reducing the number of ships down to a much smaller level, scraping the rest of them for parts. It is what Cain did, and yes, when she did it was a horrible act.

    The fact of the matter is, if any of them are going to survive at all, they need to get their act together, drop kick anybody that doesn't want to march in line (seems like the vast majority of them) and get on their way.

  2. #202
    Colonel Flyboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaredh View Post
    I don't get these types of comments in the context of the show. Put yourself in their position. To be honest, the government should have been abolished a long time ago. All it does is server to slow down decision making for a group of people who need to be as agile as they can be. A representative body for extremely key decisions (like, we are going to colonized this planet, not that one) is really the only useful purpose to have any type of government.

    ALL the decisions on where they go, who gets fuel, who gets repairs, etc should be carried out exclusively by the people who keep them alive...and that's the military.

    The people on those little ships may not like it, but I bet they would like seeing the big military ship jump off leaving them behind even worse....and that is exactly where they are pushing them to.

    It is rapidly approaching "every man for himself" standing and who says Zarak isn't about to jump on galactica and say "to hell" with all the other ships? He'll keep the ones required to keep Galactica going and go. In that type of situation, I'm not sure why they haven't done it already, honesty.

    Adama has been pacifying them for quite some time. They really hit an every man for themself standing when the cylons found them on New Caprica. They really should have reorganzied the fleet from a ship perspective long ago, reducing the number of ships down to a much smaller level, scraping the rest of them for parts. It is what Cain did, and yes, when she did it was a horrible act.

    The fact of the matter is, if any of them are going to survive at all, they need to get their act together, drop kick anybody that doesn't want to march in line (seems like the vast majority of them) and get on their way.
    Admiral Cain did exactly that. Look what happened to the Battlestar Pegasus.


    The question is, what are they fighting to survive for? They're trying to live, not just to fight. If the only ships in the fleet were military, than fine. But unless every single civilian is drafted onto the Galactica and any concept of having some form of society is thrown away, a government MUST be in place. Adama's responsibility is security, keeping people alive, defending the fleet yes. But there is MORE to life than defence when that which you are defending is a society.

    A military commander without a civilian behind him declaring policy is a dangerous thing, and that way lies the authoritarian regimes that we see all over the Third World. Now don't get me wrong, I am (obviously) very pro-military. But I'm also a realist in the truest sense of the word. And sure, Adama could have his military dictatorship, and it might be more efficient, but at what cost. Do you know why in the real world more and more 'Orwellian' Anti-Terrorism legisilation keeps springing up? Because in an autocratic society it would be entirely possibly to stamp out terrorism. Tighter control means increased security. But that is unacceptable. There comes a point when society's values can't be cast aside. I personally believe our Governments in reality know when to stop - but would they in BSG? Despite Adama's good intentions?

    It's not enough to simply survive. The civilians have to live.


    "Five Rounds Rapid"




  3. #203
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    I'm excited about the continuation of Battlestar tonight.

    Regarding what "The Oath" refers to, I interpreted the oath to mean the oath that officers swear upon receiving their commission. Adama shouts "You swore an oath!" when Gaeta takes control. And Gaeta says that his mutiny is justified because Adama was untrue to the very same oath. So that's what the oath is about. Military officers tend to take oaths like that seriously, since it is connected to soldierly honor, which is a big thing in the military, because it is part of how the military separates killing in war from murder during peace.

    Civilian participation is both good and useful for the military. When civilians are on board, the military doesn't need to expend resources policing them. And Adama himself generally wants to have a functioning government, he just hates the thought of Zarek being in control.

    And, although I want Adama and Rosslyn to stay in power personally, I don't think Zarek is really just out for himself. Maybe he is, but it's not at all clear. Zarek makes a lot of valid points. Throughout the entire series, Rosslyn has never been elected President. She became president by being 40-something in the line of succession. She lost an election to Baltar. She became President again by appointment-then-resignation by Zarek after New Caprica, and even that was because Zarek realized that Adama would not support Zarek as presidency. In "Collaborators," Adama says "your presidency is a joke," after the secret trials are traced to his authorization.

    And even in this rebellion, Zarek is the legitimate President (with Rosslyn incapacitated/not present). He WAS actually elected on Baltar's ticket, and was Rosslyn's vice-president after New Caprica. When Zarek said "I'm running the government," Adama replied "For now...," essentially threatening a coup d'etat - something he has done before. Last time Rosslyn was out of the picture, Lee was pushed to the presidency in order to bypass Zarek. So basically the civilian authority is threatened with a coup d'etat from the military and decides to pre-empt it by supporting a mutiny led by junior officers.

    These things generally end badly, because even if the junior officers take control, they typically don't trust the civilian authority afterwards.

  4. #204
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    OK, I changed my mind about Zarek. OMFG!

  5. #205
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    God that was goooooood. Television doesn't get much better then this. I could really cry that the show is almost over. BSG is REALLY the best thing on television.
    <mod snip....please talk about eps 414 in the appropriate thread, thanks >

    ROCK ON GALACTICA! YOU ARE THE BEST!
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    He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and he can see the turn of the universe.
    And he's wonderful.

  6. #206
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    Whoa whoa whoa whoa!

    Spoilers!


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  7. #207
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    Yet another reason to thank Gaeta: if he didn't decide to stage a coup then Tyrol wouldn't have gone down to the FTL drive and noticed the Fractures. Yup, Gaeta saved them all

  8. #208
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    best ep of the series IMO next to exodus and it's about time the old starbuck came back

    it's great to see have dark feelix has become with dee's death earth and his leg he's truly gone to the edge

    the cliffhanger was great adama and saul in the same room willing to fight to retake the ship who would have thought that after "revelations" >??

  9. #209
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    I loved the OATH because R/A had THAT kiss!!! SMOKING!!!!

    Then yes we got to see our OLD Starbuck come back to rid Galactica of the rats that infested the ship.

  10. #210
    Chief Master Sergeant Morganrone93's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    GAETA, I am coming for you! I WILL unleash hell upon you, you frakker!
    When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.-Arthur C. Clarke

    We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology -Carl Sagan

  11. #211
    Major General AresLover452's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    This whole final half of the season was just one roller coaster of a ride!!

  12. #212
    First Lieutenant Gamma626's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    This was one of the best episodes of the 4th season, and yes... the series.

    Stargate Chicago Con 2010 Attendee

  13. #213
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma626 View Post
    This was one of the best episodes of the 4th season, and yes... the series.
    Thought you'd enjoy it The beginning of season 4 was indeed rather show, but it was also a huge buildup to two outstanding episodes. Wondering what your favourite episodes & characters will be at the end of the series
    Mia: Don't you hate that?
    Vincent: Hate what?
    Mia: Uncomfortable silences. Why do we feel it's necessary to yak about bullsh*t in order to be comfortable?
    Vincent: I don't know. That's a good question.
    Mia: That's when you know you've found somebody really special: you can just shut the f*** up for a minute and comfortably share silence.
    - Pulp Fiction

  14. #214
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    I finished last night. I'll post a good description when I get home from work later today.

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  15. #215
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cloud View Post
    Am I the only one in favour of Gaeta and his rebellion?

    I've always liked Gaeta. Poor guy has been through a lot. Star Buck owes him an apology trying to make him beg in the airlock bay. He's lost his leg, he's lost his hope, and his Admiral broke the law by illegally arresting the vice president. And the Second in Command is cylon.

    Hypocrisy is:
    Adama has forgiven everyone else for everything that they've done. Even Baltar got off scott free. Gaeta should be forgiven. He's done everything that was asked of him and has gotten frakked in return (lost a leg). And Star Buck better not flip out at Gaeta because her husband was the one who pulled the trigger.

    I'm curious: what oath does the title of this episode refer to? Gaeta broke his oath to Adaman by mutiny. But Adama broke his oath to the colonies by illegally arresting the vice president and running a virtual dictatorship -- remember the descussion they had in CiC when Gaeta pointed out that the colonial ships refusing to be boarded by cylons were doing nothing wrong? Adama replied that it was a military decision, Gaeta asked who gets to make that decision (you?) and Adama said yes (Adama was wrong).

    So really, the rebellion is legal.

    Cloud
    No Adama isn't wrong, is it a military descision to use the FTLs, yes who calculates the jumps every time and who are constantly used to repair those drives, are right... Now tell me FTLs aren't a military decision
    And Baltar wasn't forgiven he was found not guilty by a legal trial of his peers, Adama didn't illegally arrest Zarek, he was clearly inciting a mutiny which caused the deaths of two marines and a foreign national
    Last edited by Alterus; May 5th, 2015 at 06:17 AM.

  16. #216
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    Default Re: The Oath (413)

    At time 33:30 of "The Oath", Baltar's secret "Monochrome Wireless Transmitter" is shown being used by President Roslin to address the fleet after rebels have taken control of communications. It looked familiar. It is a circa-1970 Hewlett-Packard 3555B Transmission & Noise Measuring Set with its front panel label replaced.
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