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    Todd - He did wrong, but so did we

    OK, so Todd overreacted. He just assumed he'd been betrayed without giving the other side a chance to explain themselves. Assuming he'd been betrayed, he hijacked the ship.

    He promised not to kill anybody (and he didn't) if they just let him use it to destroy the Attero device, which had already killed off an entire hive of his men. When he deemed this not viable, he set the Daedalus to crash onto the planet.

    Was it cruel? Yes. Would it have killed everyone on board? Yes. But it was not cold-blooded murder.

    Then, in this episode, he shows up at Atlantis' doorstep having taken a "cure" Atlantis created and John's first reaction is to demand the Wraith be killed. Yes, Judge Sheppard is out and about again.

    No trial, no nothing, just kill them. An eye for an eye and all that. Ronon I can understand. John?

    I also didn't like the sub-plot of having to suffocate all of the hibernating Wraith. They were basically human (ish) now, but John just went "We can't take any chances" and immediately decided to kill them all. He seemingly had no qualms about it. I can see that it was necessary, but I'd just liked to have seen him take at least a moment to consider the matter.

    Back to Todd. This is a Wraith who's been working with Atlantis for years. When he thought he'd been betrayed, he captured the ship to try to solve the problem and ultimately deemed the people on board collateral damage (and John was so lying. Half of his men were not on that ship).

    But he still wanted what Atlantis wanted, a peaceful solution to the Wraith dilemma. He either voluntarily took the therapy himself or had someone under his command take it. Then, when he saw that it was working, he distributed it to his entire hive.

    He obviously wanted what Atlantis wants. Then when they show up, Atlantis is all "Kill them. Who cares?".

    There were some bumps along the road. But the callous way some non-Ronon-people (because the writers have made it abundantly clear Ronon has no brain and just wants to kill all Wraith) didn't even hesitate to hand down the death penalty on a former ally like that, that was just wrong, IMO.




    #2
    I completely agree. I just would like to add one more point that goes the same way: McKay and Jackson willingly sacrificed countless wraith to save two lives, their own. True, it was wrong from Todd to sacrifice the Deadalus crew to save his entire species, but still, it hardly compares, does it?
    My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
    Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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      #3
      Did they actually hit the suffocate button? I thought Rodney just set it up so that if the pod lost power it wouldn't open. Thus suffocating them but only if they were going to get loose and be dangerous.
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        #4
        Originally posted by Crazedwraith View Post
        Did they actually hit the suffocate button? I thought Rodney just set it up so that if the pod lost power it wouldn't open. Thus suffocating them but only if they were going to get loose and be dangerous.
        They disabled the fail-safe, meaning any wraith whose pod would suffer power shortage would die from suffocation. This concerns Todd's entire crew, the warriors (dangerous if they get loose) but also the faced wraith (not dangerous if they get loose).

        Considering the power fluctuations were becoming more and more serious almost by the minute, all wraith would have died before long.
        My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
        Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
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          #5
          Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
          OK, so Todd overreacted. He just assumed he'd been betrayed without giving the other side a chance to explain themselves. Assuming he'd been betrayed, he hijacked the ship.

          He promised not to kill anybody (and he didn't) if they just let him use it to destroy the Attero device, which had already killed off an entire hive of his men. When he deemed this not viable, he set the Daedalus to crash onto the planet.

          Was it cruel? Yes. Would it have killed everyone on board? Yes. But it was not cold-blooded murder.

          Then, in this episode, he shows up at Atlantis' doorstep having taken a "cure" Atlantis created and John's first reaction is to demand the Wraith be killed. Yes, Judge Sheppard is out and about again.

          No trial, no nothing, just kill them. An eye for an eye and all that. Ronon I can understand. John?

          I also didn't like the sub-plot of having to suffocate all of the hibernating Wraith. They were basically human (ish) now, but John just went "We can't take any chances" and immediately decided to kill them all. He seemingly had no qualms about it. I can see that it was necessary, but I'd just liked to have seen him take at least a moment to consider the matter.

          Back to Todd. This is a Wraith who's been working with Atlantis for years. When he thought he'd been betrayed, he captured the ship to try to solve the problem and ultimately deemed the people on board collateral damage (and John was so lying. Half of his men were not on that ship).

          But he still wanted what Atlantis wanted, a peaceful solution to the Wraith dilemma. He either voluntarily took the therapy himself or had someone under his command take it. Then, when he saw that it was working, he distributed it to his entire hive.

          He obviously wanted what Atlantis wants. Then when they show up, Atlantis is all "Kill them. Who cares?".

          There were some bumps along the road. But the callous way some non-Ronon-people (because the writers have made it abundantly clear Ronon has no brain and just wants to kill all Wraith) didn't even hesitate to hand down the death penalty on a former ally like that, that was just wrong, IMO.
          Wait, Todd sent them to die, but it's not cold-blooded murder? He was doing what was best for his own, just like Sheppard does.

          While I see the moral debate in killing helpless individuals, Sheppard is a military man and as such is trained to make moral tough decisions quickly and without hesitation. Not doing so gets people killed in the field. From the very start in Rising we see this in him when he decides to kill Sumner as he is being fed on.

          Sheppard does what he feels is best for his people. The moral complications of the situation takes a back seat when the those lives are on the line.

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            #6
            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            Wait, Todd sent them to die, but it's not cold-blooded murder?
            Collateral damage to save his race. He didn't just up and decide to kill them (so it wasn't cold-blooded murder, it was just murder).

            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            He was doing what was best for his own, just like Sheppard does.
            John immediately wanted to kill them upon their arrival. Even after hearing of their plight, he wanted to blow them out of their sky. It was only upon Richard's insistence that he agreed to actually try to "help" them.

            They were of no threat to them (they hadn't told anyone about Atlantis). There was no threat their death would remove. John just said "Kill them all, who cares".

            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            While I see the moral debate in killing helpless individuals, Sheppard is a military man and as such is trained to make moral tough decisions quickly and without hesitation.
            And what a great man he is. Let's kill them all, screw the innocent who can be saved. My men before their.

            One of his soldiers was killed and he was "That's one too many, kill the dozens of dozens of theirs!". It's 126 eyes for an eye-logic.

            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            Not doing so gets people killed in the field.
            This was not the field. He had time to contemplate it, to weigh both sides of the coin. He just chose not to.

            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            From the very start in Rising we see this in him when he decides to kill Sumner as he is being fed on.
            That is that and this is this. Two completely different things.

            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            Sheppard does what he feels is best for his people.
            And that is the problem. Despite his friendship with Todd, he still views them as animals who need to die, all of them.

            Originally posted by Myles View Post
            The moral complications of the situation takes a back seat when the those lives are on the line.
            Oh yeah. They had, um, 12 or something men on the hive. There were, um, 100's if not 1000's of Wraith on the hive. Oh yeah, let's make sure those 12 are safe by killing 100's.

            Perfect logic.



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              #7
              Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
              Collateral damage to save his race. He didn't just up and decide to kill them (so it wasn't cold-blooded murder, it was just murder).

              John immediately wanted to kill them upon their arrival. Even after hearing of their plight, he wanted to blow them out of their sky. It was only upon Richard's insistence that he agreed to actually try to "help" them.

              They were of no threat to them (they hadn't told anyone about Atlantis). There was no threat their death would remove. John just said "Kill them all, who cares".

              And what a great man he is. Let's kill them all, screw the innocent who can be saved. My men before their.

              One of his soldiers was killed and he was "That's one too many, kill the dozens of dozens of theirs!". It's 126 eyes for an eye-logic.

              This was not the field. He had time to contemplate it, to weigh both sides of the coin. He just chose not to.

              That is that and this is this. Two completely different things.

              And that is the problem. Despite his friendship with Todd, he still views them as animals who need to die, all of them.

              Oh yeah. They had, um, 12 or something men on the hive. There were, um, 100's if not 1000's of Wraith on the hive. Oh yeah, let's make sure those 12 are safe by killing 100's.

              Perfect logic.
              Okay then...The logic you speak of is inaccurate and would have cost the entire team and the mission for that matter, lost.

              Are you really going to risk the chance of more of these "reduced to an animal state of mentality" Wraith soldiers to escape and risk more lives? Shepard did what he felt was best for the safety of the crew and the sanctity of the mission. As pointed out in the episode, power systems were failing resulting in the escape of these "state of animal mentality" soldiers.

              So Shepard was faced with an ultimate decision? A moral one, true.

              Either leave the hibernating Wraith in stasis and risk the chance of a power failure (The fail-safe would go off releasing them.) resulting in their escape. Following could result in the entire team killed off by these "animals" or a majority of the team at least.

              Or strike and kill the soldiers while they pose no threat at the moment to save all of his people plus succeed in their mission.

              Besides that, they were going to die anyway. The power failures across the ship resulted in the eventual containment breach of the hull which led to the ship splitting in half. The ship splitting in half resulted in a loss of planetary orbit forcing Shepard's team and Todd into a direct collision with the planet. The Wraith were going to be lost anyway. They were animalistic in nature now and there was no time to save them.

              Did the decision Shepard make go against ethics? In a sense yeah...but you need to violate them sometimes for survival. It was either them or the "animal" soldiers.

              Notice I keep on stressing "animal" because essentially they were.

              I am sorry Fallen, but I would not want you as a commanding officer. Your priority objective is the sanctity of the mission (As long as the mission was just, which the mission Shepard was on was just.) and the survival of your commanding unit. Most people would probably agree with that.

              Would I sacrifice myself to save the lives of a people? Surely, but not for an "animalistic state of mentaity" Wraith soldiers. There are no ethics or anything in them. I would surely for a people that would do the same in return.

              There are no regrets. Thank you Brad Wright and everyone else for SGU,
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                #8
                Originally posted by FallenAngelII View Post
                I also didn't like the sub-plot of having to suffocate all of the hibernating Wraith. They were basically human (ish) now, but John just went "We can't take any chances" and immediately decided to kill them all. He seemingly had no qualms about it. I can see that it was necessary, but I'd just liked to have seen him take at least a moment to consider the matter.
                Those things might have been humanoid, but they were nowhere near humanish. All of them went on their primal instincts and tried to eat the team, "with teeth like an animal." John would have given them a chance if they were well-behaved like the human Wraith in "No Man's Land" and "Misbegotten," but once he found one of his men half-eaten, all bets were off. I don't blame him for killing the human-Wraith, it has in his and his team's best interests. Otherwise, who knows how many more of our people would have died. He didn't immediately say "kill anything that moves" as soon as he boarded the ship.

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                  #9
                  What should John have done? Allow themselves to be eaten alive by a swarm of primal Wraith because defending themselves would not be for the good of the many?

                  I can see why shooting them down when they first arrived was wrong, but once he was trapped on a failing ship with hordes of hungry wraith what was the best course of action?
                  "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by :Orion Coran: View Post
                    Are you really going to risk the chance of more of these "reduced to an animal state of mentality" Wraith soldiers to escape and risk more lives? [snip]
                    Did the decision Shepard make go against ethics? In a sense yeah...but you need to violate them sometimes for survival. It was either them or the "animal" soldiers.
                    You conveniently forget that Sheppard did not only sentence to death the animalistic warriors, but also the very human-like faced wraith.

                    And how different is that from Todd sacrificing the Daedalus crew to stop a weapon the Atlanteans had initiated, and which was threatening his whole species?

                    Besides that, they were going to die anyway.
                    Last time I checked, Sheppard was not Davos the seer. He couldn't know the ship would break much sooner than expected.

                    Originally posted by rsanchez View Post
                    Those things might have been humanoid, but they were nowhere near humanish. All of them went on their primal instincts and tried to eat the team, "with teeth like an animal." [snip]
                    They owe their lives to one of those "things", as you say: Todd. But maybe they should have ensured he would suffocate too, instead of waking him?

                    Only the warriors were uncontrollable and dangerous; the faced wraith weren't.

                    Originally posted by Infinite-Possibilities View Post
                    What should John have done? Allow themselves to be eaten alive by a swarm of primal Wraith because defending themselves would not be for the good of the many?
                    I can see why shooting them down when they first arrived was wrong, but once he was trapped on a failing ship with hordes of hungry wraith what was the best course of action?
                    What should Todd have done in "The Lost Tribe"? Allow most of his kind to be eradicated by the Attero device because defending his people would not be for the good of the humans?

                    I can see why crashing the Daedalus and its crew into Janus' facility was wrong, but once the ship weapons were irreparably damaged what was the best course of action?
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                      #11
                      He didn't exactly sentence them to death. They only die if their pod fails. If the bestial wraith get out, they posed a danger to his men, which in at the end of the day was Sheppard's top priority.

                      Shep didn't exactly flush all the wraith into space, he just engineered it so that they wouldn't be released on his men. Yes, as a by product there was the possibility of killing some of the officer caste wraith, but I don't think Rodney knew which pods there were in specifically, so it was all or nothing.

                      The choice for Sheppard was:
                      -not enact the solution and endanger his men.
                      -enact it and kill a few wraith they don't need to as a by product.

                      He chose to safeguard the lives of his men. As an officer that's what he should do.
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
                        You conveniently forget that Sheppard did not only sentence to death the animalistic warriors, but also the very human-like faced wraith.

                        And how different is that from Todd sacrificing the Daedalus crew to stop a weapon the Atlanteans had initiated, and which was threatening his whole species?



                        Last time I checked, Sheppard was not Davos the seer. He couldn't know the ship would break much sooner than expected.



                        They owe their lives to one of those "things", as you say: Todd. But maybe they should have ensured he would suffocate too, instead of waking him?

                        Only the warriors were uncontrollable and dangerous; the faced wraith weren't.



                        What should Todd have done in "The Lost Tribe"? Allow most of his kind to be eradicated by the Attero device because defending his people would not be for the good of the humans?

                        I can see why crashing the Daedalus and its crew into Janus' facility was wrong, but once the ship weapons were irreparably damaged what was the best course of action?
                        Actually (in my mind) Todd's only actual mistake in that two-parter was over-reacting somewhat when the device was turned on and blaming the Atlantis expedition instead of working with them to uncover the truth about what happened. Everything he did after that, while limited by the initial course he chose, was pretty much nothing I'd blame him for.

                        I can see why Sheppard might, however. Being a character in the show, he doesn't have the benefit of perspective that we the viewers might.
                        Last edited by Infinite-Possibilities; 08 December 2008, 11:51 AM.
                        "First Weir, then Samantha Carter, and now, you! It's a pity you humans die or get reassigned so easily, or I might have a sense of satisfaction now!"

                        *You got the touch! You got the poweeeeer!*

                        "Arise, Woolseyus Prime."

                        "Elizabeth..."

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Laura Dove View Post
                          What should Todd have done in "The Lost Tribe"? Allow most of his kind to be eradicated by the Attero device because defending his people would not be for the good of the humans?

                          I can see why crashing the Daedalus and its crew into Janus' facility was wrong, but once the ship weapons were irreparably damaged what was the best course of action?
                          I don't think anyone has questioned Todd's right to act like he did - only your assertion that he had more right to kill humans in that situation then the Sheppard had to kill Wraith in 'Infection'.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by rsanchez View Post
                            Stuff.
                            Originally posted by :Orion Coran: View Post
                            More stuff.
                            You guys missed something. Those reduced to "an animalistic state" were the Wraith soldiers with masks, the ones Atlantis theorized were constantly under the mind control of their masters, which explains why they're so wild without anyone to control them.

                            However, we know that there are plenty of non-soldiers on board of Hives, soldiers who can think for themselves. The therapy did not devolve them, just look at Todd, he's the same as he's always been. They were always like that, it's just that without someone to reign them in, they are a threat.

                            However, the Wraith who were not soldiers were not a threat. They wouldn't just go off and attack people who can help them for no reason.

                            It is them I think John should've paid a least a single moment into considering. They were, after all, pretty much human now. They just look different. The ones who were threats, they had to die. The ones who weren't? They didn't have to die. They were collateral damage. But John seemed to have absolutely no qualms about offing them with the rest.

                            Also, as for the ship breaking in half, John had no way of knowing that. Did it happen? Yes. But John is not psychic, he did not know it would happen. His decision was in no way affected by it.

                            Also, of note, I never argued that he shouldn't have killed them off. I was merely disappointed in how he seemed to have absolutely no problems killings potentially dozens of pretty much innocent humans (who look weird).



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                              #15
                              Before this thing gets out of hand: where's the proof that there were other faced Wraith on board?

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