"Moebius" - Temporal Paradox

[Daniel Jackson]

I don't feel like making my entire post invisible, so click back if you don't want "Moebius" to be spoiled.




OK, Ra and Apophis are suppose to return for the season finale. We also know that one of the producers said it would be a time travel / alternate timeline episode. Now, does this mean that SG-1 does some time traveling as well as using the quantum mirror? Perhaps SG-1 does time traveling, messes up history resulting in an alternate timeline, thus has to go back and repair history? Who knows, I'd like to wait and find out.

As for the paradox, many fans have suggested that SG-1 goes back to ancient Egypt and starts the rebellion against Ra or helps start the Tok'ra rebellion. This simply is not possible. Here's an example of why.

Timeline A: Your parents meet, fall in love, get married, then your mother gives birth to you. 30 years later, you build a time machine and go back 40 years.

Timeine B: It's 40 years ago, and you "appear" from the future. While explorring the past, you interract with your parents. After learning about your parents, you return to the future. Crap! Whut's this? Your parents never fell in love, never got married, you were never born, and your mother died in a car accident three years ago. Whut the heck is going on? Somehow, you've "alterred" history. After doing extensive research, you figure out the mistakes you've made and go back in time.

Timeline C: Just after you leave for the future, your further in the future self returns from the future to correct your mistakes. After doing so, and making sure history is set right, you return to the future. 40 years later, you "appear" from the past. Your family is restored, everything's back to normal, but there are "minor" changes. The future's back together again, it's close enough, one shouldn't risk undoing all that.

That's an example of time travel creating an alternate timeline that effectively replaces the one you came from. You're not erased from existance, becuase you're in the past while the future changes, thus you don't go "poof" when you end up in the freaky future.

How do you get a timeloop where A leads to B leads to C? Welp, it's quite simple. The original timeline leads to an alternate timeline which leads to a third timeline that starts the A-B-C-A timeline. Thoughts?

[Butterfly-Dreamer]

Timeline A: Your parents meet, fall in love, get married, then your mother gives birth to you. 30 years later, you build a time machine and go back 40 years.

Timeine B: It's 40 years ago, and you "appear" from the future. While explorring the past, you interract with your parents. After learning about your parents, you return to the future. Crap! Whut's this? Your parents never fell in love, never got married, you were never born, and your mother died in a car accident three years ago. Whut the heck is going on?

I'm not sure i necissarily agree with your theories on time travel.

The way i look at it is that it is totaly impossible to change the past. A great example of this is the third Harry Potter Book/Movie (The Prizoner of Azkaban), where they go back in time, but nothing realy changes ( you'll have to watch the dvd if i dont explain it right).

I dont think that the episode will take place in Ancient Egypt, but it is perfectly plausible that SG1 started the rebellion.

There was an example of it in Bill and Ted too, something to do with a set of keys and they say something like

"Oh, i've forgotten my keys. tonight i'll go back in time to this morning, and put them over here behind this rock"

And then he goes over to the rock and gets his keys from underneath it.

Am i explaining this in a way which anyone else can understand?

Anyway, i think its going to be a great season finale, i cant wait to see it!

[aAnubiSs]

Why would SG1 even bother going back if the past can't be changed? Done is done by your theory.

[Erik Pasternak]

As Daniel Jackson said, it is an alternate universe/time travel story. Maybe they keep shifting back and forward in time in several different universes.

[Ugly Pig]

As Daniel Jackson said, it is an alternate universe/time travel story. Maybe they keep shifting back and forward in time in several different universes.

I'm thinking alternate universes in the episode are created because they change something in the past, like in Back To The Future Part II.

[KayMan2k]

I'm thinking alternate universes in the episode are created because they change something in the past, like in Back To The Future Part II.

I was thinking about the Back To The Future trilogy as soon as I opened this thread. Hmmm... wonder if RDA will be driving a Delorian?

Anyway, this is really a discussion of fate. It may be SG-1's fate to start the Egyptian rebellion but they don't know it yet. If they don't, then the SGC would never exist so therefore they know the plan will work because of how events have turned out. If they never went back in time to start the rebellion they wouldn't exist, so they HAVE to go back to revolt agaisnt Ra. It is confusing and I have just tried to explain how I am coping with the Paradox. Which came first the chicken or the egg? No one can solve this, perhaps they arrived at the same time?

[KayMan2k]

As Daniel Jackson said, it is an alternate universe/time travel story. Maybe they keep shifting back and forward in time in several different universes.

Kinda reminds me of a cheap SciFi Channel TV show... hmmmm...

[Daniel Jackson]

I'm not sure i necissarily agree with your theories on time travel.

The way i look at it is that it is totaly impossible to change the past. A great example of this is the third Harry Potter Book/Movie (The Prizoner of Azkaban), where they go back in time, but nothing realy changes ( you'll have to watch the dvd if i dont explain it right).

Now see, that doesn't make any sense. If you cannot change the past, then you cannot go to the past, becuase your pressense alone would alter history however insignificantly.

I dont think that the episode will take place in Ancient Egypt, but it is perfectly plausible that SG1 started the rebellion.

It's not possible, time is linear, you must have the past, present, then future, before the timeline can be altered, which means you have to have an original timeline where SG-1 did not start the rebellion.

There was an example of it in Bill and Ted too, something to do with a set of keys and they say something like

"Oh, i've forgotten my keys. tonight i'll go back in time to this morning, and put them over here behind this rock"

And then he goes over to the rock and gets his keys from underneath it.

Am i explaining this in a way which anyone else can understand?

Actually, this can happen, but it's entirely complicated. If you'd like, I could post how this would work in the Off Topic forum.

Anyway, i think its going to be a great season finale, i cant wait to see it!

Agreed, so long as there's no pre-destined paradoxes, they drive me nutz try'n to solve. lol

[Daniel Jackson]

As Daniel Jackson said, it is an alternate universe/time travel story. Maybe they keep shifting back and forward in time in several different universes.

Whut you describe here is not time travel at all, you've just described the TV show Sliders. Alternate timelines created by time travel are entirely different from alternate universes. Alternate universes exist parallel to our own universe, but alternate timelines something else entirely. Imagine having 10 wavey lines. Each wavey line is slitely different. You can draw a "line" from one wavey line to another, that represents dimensional travel. However, if you erase part of one wavey line and change the wavey pattern, that'd represent "changes" to the timeline. You can only have one timeline at a time, becuase as you change the past, instead of creating another universe, you're actually reshaping your own. Understand?

[Daniel Jackson]

Anyway, this is really a discussion of fate. It may be SG-1's fate to start the Egyptian rebellion but they don't know it yet. If they don't, then the SGC would never exist so therefore they know the plan will work because of how events have turned out. If they never went back in time to start the rebellion they wouldn't exist, so they HAVE to go back to revolt agaisnt Ra. It is confusing and I have just tried to explain how I am coping with the Paradox. Which came first the chicken or the egg? No one can solve this, perhaps they arrived at the same time?

There is no paradox. If SG-1 starts the rebellion, then here's whut happens.

Timeline A - Earth Rebellion occurs and burries Ra's Stargate. Thousands of years later, SG-1 goes on a wacky time travel adventure.

Timeline B - Thousands of years ago, history gets alterred some how, so it's left to SG-1 to repair history and start the rebellion against Ra and bury the Stargate.

Timeline C - Thousands of years ago, SG-1 starts a rebellion against Ra to bury the Stargate, then in the present, SG-1 goes on a wacky time travel adventure, they end up in the past, and have to start the rebellion...

Basically, you have the first timeline, then the 2nd timeline where history is altered, then a third timeline where the heroes repair history, but create a pre-destined paradox in the process. Any questions?

[donnie_darko]

This timeline shifting alt history thing sounds close to the ST:TNG final.

[Shipperahoy]

All of this stuff tends to make my head feel like it will explode. I read a short story years ago, I think it was by Heinlen, about a company or something that sold trips into the past, the prehistoric age mostly. It was like a tourist type thing but they had it rigged so that the "tourists" couldn't touch anything or even step on the ground. If I remember correctly a tourist stepped off of the path and crushed a plant or something and they came back and everything was different. From most theories I've read each and every little thing that you do sets of a series of events and the possibilities are mind numbing. That's why I tend not to think of the scientific side of things during sci-fi shows. I would need about 8 aspirin by the time the show was over.

[Daniel Jackson]

Shipperahoy, thas why ya don't go back in time more than a few millennia, unless you have an expert chronologist with ya. lol

[Erik Pasternak]

Whut you describe here is not time travel at all, you've just described the TV show Sliders. Alternate timelines created by time travel are entirely different from alternate universes. Alternate universes exist parallel to our own universe, but alternate timelines something else entirely. Imagine having 10 wavey lines. Each wavey line is slitely different. You can draw a "line" from one wavey line to another, that represents dimensional travel. However, if you erase part of one wavey line and change the wavey pattern, that'd represent "changes" to the timeline. You can only have one timeline at a time, becuase as you change the past, instead of creating another universe, you're actually reshaping your own. Understand?

You misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that they enter Alternate Universe A, and go back in time in that universe so that they are at the time when the Abydos mission was going on. They then go into Alternate Universe B, and travel back to a point where Apophis was still kicking. Understand what I mean?

All of this stuff tends to make my head feel like it will explode.

That is exactly what Joe Mallozzi said in a post here at the Forum.

[Daniel Jackson]

You misunderstand me. What I'm saying is that they enter Alternate Universe A, and go back in time in that universe so that they are at the time when the Abydos mission was going on. They then go into Alternate Universe B, and travel back to a point where Apophis was still kicking. Understand what I mean?

OK, are you suggesting time travel in two different alternate universes???