Teyla's Choice (no, not THAT one)

[WarGrowlmon18]

Something else to consider is that eairler in the episode Sheppard gave a general order that Michael would recieve "no quarter". Meaning, Michael was to be killed on the spot, even if he surrendered. So Teyla didn't really have a choice to make, she was simply following orders.


To give you an idea of how unusual such an order is, it'd actually be a war crime if Sheppard was to give a "no quarter" order in a war here on earth. Though in the case of Michael, I'd say it was deserved.

Yeah: no one wanted him to come back ever again as they're as sick of him as I am.

[WarGrowlmon18]

But when someone is hanging on a ledge like that, helpless? To forcefully kick their hands off? I just don't see it as something she'd normally do.

She did it in this instance, for good reason. But it was still a bit extreme, because she's Teyla.

The point of discussion I was trying to raise is not the fact that she did it at all, but that she did it in that situation. Teyla forcefully ended the life of an already defeated enemy when she (IMO) would usually have saved their life and captured them in instances like that.

Michael had nowhere else to run. Even if he made out of that tower, short of defeating all of Atlantis, he was stuck on Atlantis, now a prisoner. Since he had no need to feed, they could lock him up permanently.

Yes, dangerous, yes, he's evil (and clearly nuts). But this is Teyla. This action for her was dark and extreme. For John, it would've been every day life. For Teyla, for Teyla, it was an interesting and powerful action, as demonstrated by John's reaction.

Some people seem to have missed that this is the issue I was trying to raise (not you, Pic), the fact that it was Teyla who did what she did in this very situation, not the fact that someone killed someone to protect their family.

If you stop to think about this, it was pretty dark and extreme, period. And I doubt Teyla's people make it a habit out of outright killing their opponents in situations like that.

Her people have a sense of "honor", after all.

He was repeatedly after her child, he kidnapped her and her people and murdered at least some of them, he wanted to destroy her city and kill all of her friends, he wanted to take over the galaxy. He was just too much of a threat to keep alive. There was no other way for it to end. Yes, John could have finished him off himself but I think he let Teyla do it as he just sat there looking at her as she made the choice to kill Michael. She has somewhat of a dark side: she killed a defensless Bolo Kai, she purposly caused as many Wraith deaths as possible in The Queen and now she's killed Michael. I probably would have done the same thing given the chance and I hate violence!!!!!!

[WarGrowlmon18]

I agree w/ others that Teyla made a tough choice. As long as Michael was alive (in Atlantis prison or not), her son wasn't safe, Atlantis wasn't safe, and thousands if not millions of others in the Pegasus galaxy could become collateral damage from Michael's twisted plans. Not to mention the people he had already killed, and all the stuff he had done to Teyla heself. If he hadn't threatened her son, she might have felt differently, but I think that maternal "mother-lion-protecting-her-cubs" instinct took hold. I was waiting for her to say something along the line of "you will never threaten my son again" before she knocked him off, but that would have been a little cliche.

Long story short, Michael constituted a past, present, and future danger to the Pegasus Galaxy, and Teyla decided to finally put an end to the danger.

My only quibble was that I wish they had made a reference to actually finding Michael's body. I'd hate for him to become the Stargate version of MacGyver's Murdoch: he seemingly died about a dozen times, but since they couldn't find (or never bothered to find) his body, it seemed that Murdoch would survive to threaten them another day.

Not sure there was a body to find. He was probably pancaked by that fall if he hit the ground and if he hit the water (which is a good possiblity) they wouldn't have been able to retrive it.

[WarGrowlmon18]

Teyla was not raised with, nor necessarily bound by, Earth law or sense of "honor."
When has she ever shown that she is?
In Missing she killed the Bola Kai warrior without hesitation.
She understood Ronon's killing of his ex-commander, and even said that she understood it, but not to tell the Earthers, as they would not.
Her actions in the Queen, against the Wraith Hive again show that she will kill without hesitation, those she feels are her enemy. And Michael has clearly shown that he is. In the alternate timeline he gutted her like a fish to take her child. And as others have said, she's a mother bear.
I think to try to judge her actions or motivations by our standards leads to a real cultural misunderstanding. We need to know what is "honor" in the Athosian or Pegasus traditions. Not what it means in ours.

I agree. Her strategy in The Queen was surprising, even to Todd, but they are at war with the Wraith and technicly we are (or were as he's now dead) at war with Michael. All she was doing was eliminating as many enemies as possible in The Queen and killing what I think was once described as the single most dangerous individual they ever encountered.

[FallenAngelII]

But you need to discuss this character's actions/mindset in the context of the rest of the show. Teyla doesn't exist in a bubble. It wouldn't have made any sence for Teyla to save Michael's life considering several weeks ago she killed thousands of Wraith who hadn't done anything to her, considering what Michael's personally done to her and her people.

It's not the same thing. Someone brought up that John had already decided Michael has to die as if it mattered. It doesn't.

The fact that Teyla has already comitted an act of darkness does matter. I never said it didn't.

Then when you throw in the fact that John just would have killed him anyway, it really wouldn't make any sence.

From a script standpoint. Not from a logical and personal standpoint. Teyla did not know what John had decided. She is not psychic. Thus, this was all by her own choice.

We're not discussing what John decided or what the PTB decided. We're discussing what Teyla did, Teyla's mindset, Teyla's past history, Teyla's person.

If anything what Teyla did in "The Queen" was more dark then what she did to Michael. She killed thousands of Wraith just for the sake of killing Wraith, with a good chance that she was going to die in the process.

Since when do hives have thousands of darts? If they did, Atlantis wouldn't stand a chance.

That was a malicious act, yes. But she did not take those lives personally. She just put them on the line. Dark, yes. I still think this one is darker.

In "The Queen", she used soldiers in a way that ensured their death. In "The Prodigal", she killed a man who bad no way of escaping, who was trapped, who was now unarmed and helpless.

She didn't even wait for him to fall, she forcibly kicked his hands off the ledge he was hanging on. It's not just that she didn't help him, that her kicking him off the ledge was enough. She then personally saw to it that he fell.

I agree. Her strategy in The Queen was surprising, even to Todd, but they are at war with the Wraith and technicly we are (or were as he's now dead) at war with Michael. All she was doing was eliminating as many enemies as possible in The Queen and killing what I think was once described as the single most dangerous individual they ever encountered.

By Earth law, that was pretty much murder there in "The Prodigal".

[bcharley]

It's not the same thing. Someone brought up that John had already decided Michael has to die as if it mattered. It doesn't.

The fact that Teyla has already comitted an act of darkness does matter. I never said it didn't.

You're right, it's not the same thing. What Teyla did in The Queen was more dark then what she did to Michael. It goes to show that she isn't the fairy princess that you seem to think she is.

Teyla is a dark character, it's normal for her to kill her enemies.

From a script standpoint. Not from a logical and personal standpoint. Teyla did not know what John had decided. She is not psychic. Thus, this was all by her own choice.

We're not discussing what John decided or what the PTB decided. We're discussing what Teyla did, Teyla's mindset, Teyla's past history, Teyla's person.

But you need to consider Teyla's actions from the standpoint of the script since that's the only context that the character exists. The writers chose for Teyla to be up on the ledge. They could have had John finish off Michael but they wanted Teyla to be standing over Michael at the end. Then the question becomes, what does she do now that she's there? Here's what you'd want that scene to look like:

Teyla reaches down and saves Michael. John walks over and pushes him off the tower and asks Teyla, "You've never had a problem with killing your enemies befor, just several weeks ago you killed thousands of Wraith. Why didn't you kill Michael?"

Now, what on earth would 'Teyla's person' say? "Michael was too evil for me to kill." Come on, Teyla did the only logical thing her character would have done in that situation. She killed her enemy, just like she's done throughout the show.

Can you give any examples when Teyla hasn't killed her enemies?

Since when do hives have thousands of darts? If they did, Atlantis wouldn't stand a chance.

I didn't say thousands of darts. I said thousands of Wraith. Wouldn't it be safe to say that there are thousands of Wraith on each Hive Ship?

By Earth law, that was pretty much murder there in "The Prodigal".

No it wasn't, I'm not sure what country you're from but in Canada there's no law against killing Wraith-hybrids.

[Rac80]

I don't think she had a choice...I think as long as Michael lives her kid will never be safe...I liked seeing another side of Teyla...A darker side of her.....She would do anything to protect her child, even kill!

Yep Linda ITA.

I don't see it as being "dark" per se. That was pure mama bear, right there. He's obsessed with kidnapping her son and nearly blew up everyone she knows in an attempt to do so. If I were her, I'd do the same damn thing--"Let's not take any chances. I'm just gonna squish you."

as any good mother would!

Actually, he didn't threaten her baby, not even once. He always reassured her the baby wouldn't be harmed (nor would she if she came with him). It was only by the end there that he abandoned them to their fate with the self-destruct.

He's still evil and stuff, but he didn't threaten the baby.

Sorry, what you consider a threat and what a mother considers a threat is two different things. As a mother myself, any attempt to remove my young child from my arms (or from my life) is a threat and any good mother knows enough NOT to trust a psychopath! and yep....you will somehow trust this killer with your most precious child???? I don't think so!!!!!

By Earth law, that was pretty much murder there in "The Prodigal".

Actually since michael had threatened her and her child (he wanted to kidnap the child at a minimum) and those around her it was "justifiable homicide" (law student here ) ---big difference between that and murder. Recently in indy a guy shot and killed a naked intruder he found in his home... turns out the man was a sex offender. Indy is a "shoot first" state. the homeowner was not charged.

I thought it was very in character to have Teyla kick his hands off. She knew he was brilliant, had incredible self-healing abilities, and an army of drones he controlled telepathically (she saw how he controlled clone!carson)-- by removing Michael's life , she knew she was protecting the Pegasus galaxy and everyone she cares about. It was another indication of her fitness as a leader. She made the tough decision and followed through. Also - who knows how he tortured her when she was pregnant and he had her captured..... that also probably plays into her actions. I consider her actions just.

[Pic]

No it wasn't, I'm not sure what country you're from but in Canada there's no law against killing Wraith-hybrids.

I can see where FallenAngel is coming from, but I still feel Teyla's actions were in keeping with her character and not just as a mother, but for all the other things folks have pointed out. Keep in mind that everyone is going to bring their own take-on-life to any character analysis ~ it's as natural as fandom.

The look on her face showed that she found the situation distasteful, but obviously she didn't hesitate for long.

What I want to know is what is it that she found distasteful? The thought of having to make the choice to end Michael's life? Or was it general disgust of Michael? Memories of his plans for her son? What he'd done to her people?

[FallenAngelII]

You're right, it's not the same thing. What Teyla did in The Queen was more dark then what she did to Michael. It goes to show that she isn't the fairy princess that you seem to think she is.

I disgaree. She didn't personally and forcefully kill those Wraith. She just ordered them into a suicide mission.

Teyla is a dark character, it's normal for her to kill her enemies.

It's not a part of her character at all. It's an unsual anomally that almost never manifests itself. If it's a part of her character, then it's one of those really deep-seated and parts that almost never gets tapped into.

Teyla is not a dark character. She not the mother of all that is good, but dark? Far from it.

But you need to consider Teyla's actions from the standpoint of the script since that's the only context that the character exists. The writers chose for Teyla to be up on the ledge. They could have had John finish off Michael but they wanted Teyla to be standing over Michael at the end. Then the question becomes, what does she do now that she's there? Here's what you'd want that scene to look like:

Yes, that is all good and all. But what does any of that have with what John decided?! You just changed your argument entirely. Earlier, you were arguing that it was perfectly logical for Teyla to kill Michael because John had decreed it, as if it meant anything. That according to the script, it now all made sense.

This is another argument entirely.

Teyla reaches down and saves Michael. John walks over and pushes him off the tower and asks Teyla, "You've never had a problem with killing your enemies befor, just several weeks ago you killed thousands of Wraith. Why didn't you kill Michael?"

I'd appreciate it if you didn't make stuff up. I never said I wanted the scene to look like that. I merely put forth alternate scenarios since some people were under the impression that the scenario that ultimately took place was the only possible scenario.

We don't even know if Teyla told John about it. And how convenient of you to leave out the scenario I've suggested several times now:
Leave Michael there to fall to his death on his own.

At the very least once he's only got one hand on the... thingie. But she kicked both hands off. You can strawman my arguments as much you want or distort the script as much as you want, but that is not common behavior for Teyla.

Now, what on earth would 'Teyla's person' say? "Michael was too evil for me to kill." Come on, Teyla did the only logical thing her character would have done in that situation. She killed her enemy, just like she's done throughout the show.

She usually doesn't kill helpless people with no weapons to employ and no escape in sight. Please tell me when she last did that.

Can you give any examples when Teyla hasn't killed her enemies?

Can you please give an example of a situation just like this before?

I didn't say thousands of darts. I said thousands of Wraith. Wouldn't it be safe to say that there are thousands of Wraith on each Hive Ship?

She didn't kill them, though. She tried to. Important distinction.

No it wasn't, I'm not sure what country you're from but in Canada there's no law against killing Wraith-hybrids.

I'd appreciate it if you bothered to read the my posts in their entirety. It's not about who she killed, it's about how she killed.

It was no longer self-defense.

Sorry, what you consider a threat and what a mother considers a threat is two different things. As a mother myself, any attempt to remove my young child from my arms (or from my life) is a threat and any good mother knows enough NOT to trust a psychopath! and yep....you will somehow trust this killer with your most precious child???? I don't think so!!!!!

Be that as it may, Michael never once threatened the child, the very words used. He said he wanted to remove him from Teyla's care (should Teyla elect not to come with them) and additionally promised that no harm would befall the child.

Now it might have sounded like a threat in Teyla's mind and, yes, Michael is a psychopath and all that. But what Michael actually did was not to threaten the child.

Actually since michael had threatened her and her child (he wanted to kidnap the child at a minimum) and those around her it was "justifiable homicide" (law student here ) ---big difference between that and murder. Recently in indy a guy shot and killed a naked intruder he found in his home... turns out the man was a sex offender. Indy is a "shoot first" state. the homeowner was not charged.

No, it was not justifiable homicide. Because you cannot kill someone for threatening to do something (former almost-law student here, it's complicated).

And while it may have been justifiable homicide when Michael was actually in control of Atlantis and preparing to leave, it wasn't anymore. Michael now had no minions (all dead or incapacitated), no ship, no control of Atlantis, no control of the gate, no escape.

Michael had nowhere to go. He couldn't possibly do anything to Torren as he was currently being guarded by a gate technician with years of kick boxing under her belt and several others, plus, the city was now full of military personnel homing in on their position. And, as I just established, it was no longer justifiable homicide since he was no longer a threat.

No, having been a threat before does not constitute justifiable homicide.

Michael no longer posed a threat to her and her baby. Yes, he did pose a threat to them, but once that threat ceased, it's no longer justifiable homicide.

Michael was now helpless, hanging on a ledge. When Michael was fighting John, it was "in defense of others". Then Michael was thrown onto the ledge-thingie. Not saving him was not a crime (a crime in some countries/states, I believe) in itself, but forcibly severing his grip was (at this point).

I also don't think it's justifiable homicide to kill someone for threatening to kidnap your child unless they threaten them or you with bodily harm first.

I thought it was very in character to have Teyla kick his hands off. She knew he was brilliant, had incredible self-healing abilities, and an army of drones he controlled telepathically (she saw how he controlled clone!carson)-- by removing Michael's life , she knew she was protecting the Pegasus galaxy and everyone she cares about. It was another indication of her fitness as a leader. She made the tough decision and followed through. Also - who knows how he tortured her when she was pregnant and he had her captured..... that also probably plays into her actions. I consider her actions just.

He tortured her? When? Did I miss entire episodes where she was tortured?

Also, I never said she shouldn't have killed him. I was just surprised she did it so forcibly, instead of waiting for him to fall on his own (or even giving him a chance to fall on his own). She just went and killed him right off.

[Nath]

Hi everyone. It was a good idea to open this thread. I have to admit, the fight scene in the end was my favorite.
I think it's very clever to make Teyla the one to end Michael's life. We already know Ronon would kill him without hesitation, and John ordered his soldiers to do so.

Teyla has a special link with Michael, and that's why it makes it difficult for her, and why she has a short moment of hesitation. But when you think about it, She disapprouved the project at first. And Michael is first of all a Wraith, who slaughtered thoursands of people throughout the galaxy. And he is responsible for the disappearence of her people, he did aweful experimentations on the Athosians, and wanted her baby for his own experiments. I think she reacted as expected in this situation.

The scene was dark, she has shown no compassion. I like this side of Teyla. But it's not out of character. As a leader, she has to be strong and make hard decisions. In "Missing" we saw this side of her, she killed to survive.

I also think it's great to end Michael's ark where it has begun, here in Atlantis.

[EvenstarSRV]

Be that as it may, Michael never once threatened the child, the very words used. He said he wanted to remove him from Teyla's care (should Teyla elect not to come with them) and additionally promised that no harm would befall the child.

Now it might have sounded like a threat in Teyla's mind and, yes, Michael is a psychopath and all that. But what Michael actually did was not to threaten the child.

From GW's transcript of The Prodigal:

MICHAEL (into the city's comms): Time is short, Teyla. I don't understand – I would think the choice is an easy one. If nothing else, consider your child. By remaining in hiding, you are sentencing him to die.

My interpretation of this line from Michael was "You and your child come with me or you will all die."

IMO, even though he promised not to hurt him earlier, by turning on the self-destruct Michael was threatening the life of Teyla's child (as well as the lives of everyone else on Atlantis).

I would also personally consider his desire to kidnap Torren to at least be a threatening gesture towards the child's safety/happiness, if not his life, regardless of Michael's 'reassurances'.

[FallenAngelII]

I would also personally consider his desire to kidnap Torren to at least be a threatening gesture towards the child's safety/happiness, if not his life, regardless of Michael's 'reassurances'.

Never directly threatened Torren's life. It would be an "unfortunate consequence" (sounds like something Michael would say) of Michael's vengeance on the expedition.

Of course, it can be interpreted as a threat, but he never directly threatened him, which was what I was contesting.

[EvenstarSRV]

Never directly threatened Torren's life. It would be an "unfortunate consequence" (sounds like something Michael would say) of Michael's vengeance on the expedition.

Of course, it can be interpreted as a threat, but he never directly threatened him, which was what I was contesting.

I guess I just don't see that many different ways you can interpret an action like setting the city's self-destruct on a countdown, it seems like a pretty direct threat to the lives of everyone on Atlantis, including Torren's.

Is a threat like the self-destruct countdown really much different from perhaps a more 'direct' threat of Michael holding a gun to Torren's head and giving Teyla a countdown before pulling the trigger?

IMO, both threats are essentially the same, real threats to Torren's life with Michael's hand on the 'trigger' in both scenarios.

Beyond what we saw in the episode, what else would Michael have had to do that would constitute a more 'direct' threat to Torren's life?

[Angela V]

As a mother of two young children, if I went through all I did concerning Michael you bet your ass I'd have killed the heartless scumbag. He'd killed countless people, experimented on people, and seriously thinks Teyla would even believe him when he says he won't hurt her child? Considering what he wanted her child for he was clearly lying. And then decide because he can't get what he wants (Teyla and child or just child) he'd just blow everyone up. Because well you know he's misunderstood and hurting. Please. He had a choice where he could've just walked away from humans and Wraith and find a nice quiet corner of the galaxy to spend the rest of his life doing what ever mundane thing he could think of. Instead he chose to kill and experiment on people. Then tried to justify his actions by blaming everyone else.

What Teyla did was protect her family, including the Altantis crew who are part of her family now. She also protected the rest of the galaxy from a mad man.

[BluBarbi98]

I also don't think that it's Teyla's dark side but just her protecting her child. We know that if Michael had lived (is he really dead this time?) he would have com Tee back again and again to capture her son. However, I am also disappointed that they won't/don't address the issue that Michael is who he is, in part because of Atlantis. I'm surprised that when he mentioned that Teyla didn't acknowledge it. Of all the characters I would think that she would be the one to make that concession. If the scene had been written differently it could have been a more powerful moment between them. Anyway, I am pleased that it was Teyla who killed him and not someone else.