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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    They're neither. For a Wraith to feed on a Human isn't immoral in the slightest.

  2. #22
    Second Lieutenant A_PophisandhisFran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    The Wraith have their own set of morals that really isn't that different from the humans. To them, it isn't really amoral to eat humans, but it certainly isn't wrong because humans aren't wraith. I have a feeling murder would still be "wrong" for a wraith, but eating a human isn't considered murder or cannibalism or anything. Humans are just food.

    I do believe in some universal morals that applies to pretty much any culture anywhere, like "murder is wrong". However, people's understanding of murder varies. I have a feeling the Wraith wouldn't want to "murder" an equal, but humans, they aren't equals and with them they are just eating.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Murder is defined as an unlawful killing, and the law can pretty much say anything, so it's hardly a universal moral, it's relative.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by dasNdanger View Post
    So, maybe we should be asking the more important question - are the Lanteans acting amorally, morally, or immorally, when it comes to their treatment of the Wraith?
    The Lanteans are not just acting immorally when it comes to the Wraith, they are rather hypocritical about it. Take for example, say, experimentation on humans. How many times have they been outraged or disgusted by the fact this goes on? How many times have they tried to stop it?

    And then what do they do? They go ahead and use Steve for testing the Hoffan drug, not to mention that entire thing with Michael (who has been cause of quite a few problems).

    The Wraith feeding-frenzy: Their fault (although technically an accident).
    Hoffan Drug: Tries to fix Wraith feeding frenzy they caused. Just so happens to have 50% mortality rate. Makes Wraith VERY angry. Also turns into deadly plague.
    Wraith vs. Replicators: Was a pretty good idea until replicators decided to go and destroy human worlds.

    Is it just me or do the Lanteans, by acting what they think is "morally" seem to be causing most of the Pegasus Galaxy's problems?

    (Oh, and while I'm here. Greetings, GateWorld forums!)
    I reject your reality and substitute my own.

  5. #25
    Airman Tri_rule's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    The Wraith are not immoral They Feed because they must, It's a basic instinct of all living creatures. If you say the Wraith ARE immoral for feeding on humans then that must also mean that Humans are immoral for eating Chicken, Beef, Lamb etc....


    There's also kellers Therapy to Surpress the Wraiths need to feed on humans Why don't they take it? Well Ask yourself why you don't become a vegetarian and only eat foods that weren't once living...

  6. #26
    First Lieutenant Shpinxinator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Human occidental morality is not an universal law

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    Universal morality is the argument of the Christians during the Crusades, the arguments of the Europeans destroying native civilisations in Africa and America, the argument of today's fanatic islamist terrorists who fight against "evil USA". Universal morality is an excuse for war and abuse on minorities: "They don't value the same things as us, therefore they are evil".

    So yeah, somehow it's arguable that universal morality is a chimera, since so many fanatics disagree and have disagreed in the course of history. That doesn't mean I want to endorse imposing one's own morality on other people by force. According to MY morality, it's one of the most immoral things. Is morality universal, then?
    I see your point but the simple fact of he matter is, the Egyptians considered murder wrong long before Christianity, long before they even encountered the Jewish people as did he Greeks as did the ancient Chinese, same with theft and incest and cannibalism these things have been considered "wrong" since man has been able to think.
    "I'm being extremely clever up here and there's no one to stand around looking impressed! What's the point in having you all?!" - The Doctor (#11)

  7. #27
    Lieutenant Colonel Rise Of The Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by bfldworker View Post
    Spoiler:
    It was mentioned in the season 1 episode "Poisoning the Well".
    About midway through the episode Weir and Shepard are talking.
    SHEPPARD: The point is, we don’t get a lot of opportunities like this. Do you know how obsessed with this the Hoffans are when they found out we had a live Wraith prisoner? He’s going to die. I tried to feed him all sorts of live stuff but apparently there’s only one item on his menu.

    Now while this doesn't outright say it, it does strongly hint about the dietary requirements of the Wraith.
    I understand what you're saying but I don't think that this rules out the Wraith being able to feed off of other life forms.
    I did mention the Iratus bug in my original post, it wouldn't just have Humans to feed off off, I don't think there were any humans on it's home world, there were probably various life forms on there that it fed off of and if the Wraith have evolved from the Iratus bug and they've taken on such a unique method of feeding, then surely ten thousand or so years of feeding off of one source of food wouldn't stop them from gaining the life energy they need from other sources than Humans.

    Perhaps that is why they must feed on humans, or at least a being that has human DNA.
    I guess that's possible but the Wraith still evolved in part from the Iratus bug.

    The hive ships may only need a power source to regenerate and stay alive. Look at humans, while we do require food, water and air to live, the food get converted into energy that keeps up alive. The human brain run on electricity, so why can't the Wraith hive ships just need power to keep going? I know it is over simplifying it. That is pretty much how it works.
    Sorry I didn't explain this as well as I could have as I was pretty tired when I wrote it
    I understand how the Wraith's ships work
    Spoiler:
    from seeing The Seed

    What I meant to say is if the Wraith's ships are alive, could some kind feeding device for the Wraith personnel be built into the design of their ships.
    If you are right in saying that the Wraith need some form of Human DNA in their food source and they are able to grow genetic material that forms the various parts of their ships then could it not be possible to make a device that itself uses a portion of the Hives, Cruisers or even Darts power and converts the energy into a form that it is palatable to the Wraith?

    Perhaps the Wraith don't consider humans sentient. We don't consider livestock on earth sentient. Why can't the Wraith look at us as not being sentient. At least by their standards.
    Again I guess this could be true, but there is a big difference from an animal that can't do complex math, make hyperdrive engines, power sources, or build weapons that can take out their ships to one that can and the Humans of Pegasus are at least capable of learning how to do those things.
    The way that Todd interacts with the Atlantis expedition at least shows that some Wraith are capable of seeing us as being at a sentient level and while we are not at as intelligent as the Ancients, we can talk, think and problem solve.

  8. #28
    Major Laura Dove's Avatar
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    Default Re: Human occidental morality is not an universal law

    Quote Originally Posted by Shpinxinator View Post
    I see your point but the simple fact of he matter is, the Egyptians considered murder wrong long before Christianity, long before they even encountered the Jewish people as did he Greeks as did the ancient Chinese, same with theft and incest and cannibalism these things have been considered "wrong" since man has been able to think.
    Wraith consider murder wrong too. It's merely the definition of what is a murder, and what is not, that changes. Is killing a slave a murder? The answer used to be "no" at the time when there were slaves. Is killing an ape who displays more intellectual abilities than some humans a murder? Today's answer is "no". Is killing a peaceful replicator a murder in Stargate universe? The answer is "no".

    For wraith, killing a human is not murder, because humans are not people. They are simply a means to survive.
    My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
    Todd contacts Atlantis once more... (spoilers up to season 4) 1. Glimpse Into the Evil | 2. Of Wraith and Men (in progress)
    Thank you for Pegasus 4, Chris!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Human occidental morality is not an universal law

    Even if we take the position that feeding on humans is amoral, the way Wraiths treat each other would be considered immoral, or at least extremely douchey.

  10. #30
    Major Laura Dove's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
    I understand what you're saying but I don't think that this rules out the Wraith being able to feed off of other life forms.
    I did mention the Iratus bug in my original post, it wouldn't just have Humans to feed off off, I don't think there were any humans on it's home world, there were probably various life forms on there that it fed off of and if the Wraith have evolved from the Iratus bug and they've taken on such a unique method of feeding, then surely ten thousand or so years of feeding off of one source of food wouldn't stop them from gaining the life energy they need from other sources than Humans.
    Don't blame the wraith for Stargate's bad science. It has been clearly confirmed, including in one of Joseph Mallozzi's blog entries, that an adult wraith canNOT survive off anything other than human/ancient/wraith lifeforce.

    Again I guess this could be true, but there is a big difference from an animal that can't do complex math, make hyperdrive engines, power sources, or build weapons that can take out their ships to one that can and the Humans of Pegasus are at least capable of learning how to do those things.
    The only difference is that it makes humans dangerous (hence, the need for wraith to destroy any human society that develops technology). It doesn't grant humans any divine right to live.

    The way that Todd interacts with the Atlantis expedition at least shows that some Wraith are capable of seeing us as being at a sentient level and while we are not at as intelligent as the Ancients, we can talk, think and problem solve.
    Some do because of exceptional circumstances; most don't.
    My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
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  11. #31
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    They have a sense of morality. They have a concept of things like honor, honesty and some of them value those things.

    You can't really judge them as a species to be immoral or not anymore than you can judge them as a species to be good or evil however. It's a question of individuals. Some will be more moral than others.

  12. #32
    Lieutenant Colonel Rise Of The Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    Don't blame the wraith for Stargate's bad science. It has been clearly confirmed, including in one of Joseph Mallozzi's blog entries, that an adult wraith canNOT survive off anything other than human/ancient/wraith lifeforce.
    Did I actually blame the Wraith? I wasn't aware that this was mentioned in Joe M's blog as I haven't read the whole thing only parts and that still doesn't change the fact that the Wraith could possibly build some kind of feeding device into their ships that uses Humans DNA, rather than using Humans as their main food source.
    What would happen if every single Human in the Pegasus galaxy was wiped?
    The Wraith wouldn't have a food source and they'd have to find some other means of feeding or hibernate on board their ships while they try to travel to the Milky Way (which I'm not sure all of them no the location of anyway).

    The only difference is that it makes humans dangerous (hence, the need for wraith to destroy any human society that develops technology). It doesn't grant humans any divine right to live.
    I am aware that had the Humans of Pegasus developed the Technology needed to protect themselves they could and probably would become a threat and this could not be tolerated by the Wraith.
    There are still potential alternatives to feeding off of an intelligent and predominantly innocent species (at least as far as the farmers of the Pegasus galaxies goes).

    In my opinion as far as the survival of my species goes it does give Humans on the whole the right to live perhaps not divine but in reality.

    Some do because of exceptional circumstances; most don't.
    Was this also stated on Joe M's blog or is that based on your opinion of what you've seen in SGA of the Wraith?
    As far as I'm concerned I just think that the Wraith think with their stomachs and only ever refrain from feeding when the risk of Humans being culled to extinction occurs.

  13. #33
    First Lieutenant Shpinxinator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Human occidental morality is not an universal law

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    Wraith consider murder wrong too. It's merely the definition of what is a murder, and what is not, that changes. Is killing a slave a murder? The answer used to be "no" at the time when there were slaves. Is killing an ape who displays more intellectual abilities than some humans a murder? Today's answer is "no". Is killing a peaceful replicator a murder in Stargate universe? The answer is "no".

    For wraith, killing a human is not murder, because humans are not people. They are simply a means to survive.
    With all due respect...by your argument it's in fact the humans of the Pegasus galaxy who are immoral for fighting to survive, since they have no "divine right" to survive then that should allow the Wraith to simply exercise their own divine right...As for killing slaves, yes it was considered murder...the public at large was not allowed to just go around killing slaves...true they were considered property however their life was not considered so meaningless that they weren't protected under some laws.

    Regardless, they Wraith have been offered an alternative to feeding off humans and refused and choose to continue feeding, knowing the pain it caused people, making them immoral.

    Ontop of all this, the Wraith have been shown to be sadistic in their culling habits, their cosmic fox hunting game with Runners and they obviously consider some humans to be "people" to the point of striking deals with them (Condemned, Allies, Common Ground etc.)
    "I'm being extremely clever up here and there's no one to stand around looking impressed! What's the point in having you all?!" - The Doctor (#11)

  14. #34
    Captain Karhedron's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
    ...
    What would happen if every single Human in the Pegasus galaxy was wiped?
    ...
    What happens in nature every time when the only foodsource of an animal goes extinct...they go with them

    There are still potential alternatives to feeding off of an intelligent and predominantly innocent species (at least as far as the farmers of the Pegasus galaxies goes).
    So it is not only one option but several. Ahh...well....which?

    In my opinion as far as the survival of my species goes it does give Humans on the whole the right to live perhaps not divine but in reality.
    Of course I would want myself and the ones I care for to be alive at the end of the day. But there is no right for that. If you have a predator of any kind nearby you stay out of its way,defend yourself against it or kill it before it does any harm. Humans are pretty good with the last option.

    Was this also stated on Joe M's blog or is that based on your opinion of what you've seen in SGA of the Wraith?
    As far as I'm concerned I just think that the Wraith think with their stomachs and only ever refrain from feeding when the risk of Humans being culled to extinction occurs.
    Todd sees Humans partly different than most other Wraith do. But in the end that wouldn't matter. Even when he was helping them on some occasions he was still feeding. Aside from one episode you just didn't see it that's all.

    Thanks for the Sig go to the talented Fainne
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    You're John! You are skilled and smart, but world-weary and a little jaded. You're a serial monogamist, and you love hard. You can sometimes be a little too narrow-minded, and stubborn to a fault, but your heart is always in the right place.

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  15. #35
    Major Laura Dove's Avatar
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    Default Re: Human occidental morality is not an universal law

    Quote Originally Posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View Post
    Did I actually blame the Wraith? I wasn't aware that this was mentioned in Joe M's blog as I haven't read the whole thing only parts and that still doesn't change the fact that the Wraith could possibly build some kind of feeding device into their ships that uses Humans DNA, rather than using Humans as their main food source.
    What would happen if every single Human in the Pegasus galaxy was wiped?
    The Wraith wouldn't have a food source and they'd have to find some other means of feeding or hibernate on board their ships while they try to travel to the Milky Way (which I'm not sure all of them no the location of anyway).
    Oh, I'm the first one to agree that relying on a single food source is, to paraphrase Todd, a "significant vulnerability" of the wraith. It's evolutionary very dangerous for their species. But that doesn't make not finding an alternative food source amoral nor immoral -- just foolish.

    I am aware that had the Humans of Pegasus developed the Technology needed to protect themselves they could and probably would become a threat and this could not be tolerated by the Wraith.
    There are still potential alternatives to feeding off of an intelligent and predominantly innocent species (at least as far as the farmers of the Pegasus galaxies goes).
    In my opinion as far as the survival of my species goes it does give Humans on the whole the right to live perhaps not divine but in reality.
    Of course, because you are human. You'd defend your kind against a threat. But that's not the same combat as good versus evil; it's merely a combat for survival from both sides. None is more moral than the other. The only ones who can (arguably) be called more moral are those who are willing to make compromises (in BOTH camps!) to find a peaceful outcome.

    Was this also stated on Joe M's blog or is that based on your opinion of what you've seen in SGA of the Wraith?
    As far as I'm concerned I just think that the Wraith think with their stomachs and only ever refrain from feeding when the risk of Humans being culled to extinction occurs.
    It's a deduction from what Michael says in "Allies" (the bold part): "You have given me a very rare perspective among the Wraith. Few of us have ever come to know the humans we are going to feed on as anything more than a means to survive -- and still, I would do what I had to do."

    So while he wouldn't commit suicide just for the good of the human race (but which human would commit an excruciating suicide for the good of another species?), he admits he never thought of humans as people before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shpinxinator View Post
    With all due respect...by your argument it's in fact the humans of the Pegasus galaxy who are immoral for fighting to survive, since they have no "divine right" to survive then that should allow the Wraith to simply exercise their own divine right...
    Oh no, I never said humans had no right to defend themselves or their kind. Wraith have no more divine right to live than humans: Both simply fight for their own survival.

    However, there is a possible outcome that preserves BOTH races best interest: Allowing the wraith to find an alternative food source, with letting them enough time to adapt. Both need a little sacrifice in order for both to gain something on the long run.

    As for killing slaves, yes it was considered murder...the public at large was not allowed to just go around killing slaves...true they were considered property however their life was not considered so meaningless that they weren't protected under some laws.
    Yes, destroying the property of somebody else was illegal. However, a master had a right of life and death on his slaves, at least in ancient Rome.

    Regardless, they Wraith have been offered an alternative to feeding off humans and refused and choose to continue feeding, knowing the pain it caused people, making them immoral.
    When have they refused?? Last time I checked, Todd accepted to work on the retrovirus, albeit with little enthusiasm. But again, such a drastic change in their whole way of life can't be easy to accept.

    Are you a vegetarian, or at least, do you refuse to eat meat from industrial farms? If no, how can you accuse wraith of not doing something you don't do either? (For the record, I do, and I still understand how reluctant wraith can be to "give themselves over".)

    Ontop of all this, the Wraith have been shown to be sadistic in their culling habits, their cosmic fox hunting game with Runners and they obviously consider some humans to be "people" to the point of striking deals with them (Condemned, Allies, Common Ground etc.)
    Individual wraith have been shown to be sadistic, yes, as well as some humans are sadistic. As for runners, there are only a handful of them in the whole galaxy, and what about humans who hunt for sport, not even eating the meat?

    Neither the wraith in "Condemned" nor in "Allies" (except Michael himself) considered humans people. Their "deals" were merely a means to use them for their own advantage.

    Todd, ever since "Common Ground", is different, though. He suffered so deeply for so long that he had basically lost any self-esteem. He was a mere "thing" in Kolya's hands, a tool, so he might have considered himself even lower than a human. He was very lonely, too, so much that company, any company, would be better than endless loneliness. In his situation, a human might even begin talking with inanimate objects to keep insanity at bay.

    Then, Sheppard arrived and somehow gave him his life back. In later meetings, Todd didn't forget how much he was owing this human, so yes, his vision of humans was forever changed, even after he regained his self-assurance. But that doesn't mean anything about other wraith.
    My Stargate Atlantis fanfictions - Wraith font
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  16. #36
    First Lieutenant Shpinxinator's Avatar
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    Default Re: Human occidental morality is not an universal law

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    Oh, I'm the first one to agree that relying on a single food source is, to paraphrase Todd, a "significant vulnerability" of the wraith. It's evolutionary very dangerous for their species. But that doesn't make not finding an alternative food source amoral nor immoral -- just foolish.
    It is amoral or immoral if that food source is a sentient life form


    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    However, there is a possible outcome that preserves BOTH races best interest: Allowing the wraith to find an alternative food source, with letting them enough time to adapt. Both need a little sacrifice in order for both to gain something on the long run.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    When have they refused?? Last time I checked, Todd accepted to work on the retrovirus, albeit with little enthusiasm. But again, such a drastic change in their whole way of life can't be easy to accept.
    Again which has been offered....here are a few lines of dialogue from "The Queen"
    Spoiler:
    KELLER: We've come up with a gene therapy that alters Wraith D.N.A. in a small but significant way. In a nutshell, we think we can make it so that you and any other Wraith we treat will never need to feed on humans again.

    (Todd and its second in command exchange a glance.)

    WRAITH: This is absurd.

    KELLER: Well, actually, it's not as big of a change as you might think. Your bodies already contain all the organs necessary to digest food.

    SHEPPARD: Here ... (he tosses a fruit across the table to Todd, who catches it) ... try this.

    TODD: If I consume this, it may give me a moment's pleasure, but it will not sustain me.

    (It puts the fruit down on the table.)

    KELLER: But that can change -- at least in theory

    WRAITH: Why would we want this? Of what benefit is it?

    SHEPPARD: Well, think about it: you could put yourself on regular food; you could give up all those tiresome cullings.

    TEYLA: It would give you a significant advantage over other Hives.


    SHEPPARD: Not to mention I could stop waiting for the chance to kill you -- in theory.

    WRAITH: Our current feeding process gives us strength, our ability to heal, our longevity.


    And a little more..
    Spoiler:
    TEYLA: What were you thinking?! You put both our lives at terrible risk.

    TODD: I know. If you'll allow me to explain ...

    TEYLA: How could you do this?

    TODD: It was necessary. The former Queen was never going to accept your proposal.



    As it is clear and Wraith had no interest in finding an alternative...a food source wasn't about survival it was about having power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    Yes, destroying the property of somebody else was illegal. However, a master had a right of life and death on his slaves, at least in ancient Rome.
    Most "slaves" in the Roman empire were indentured servants, they had rights and most were even paid. What they did with their time wasn't their choice but their lives were valued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laura Dove View Post
    Are you a vegetarian, or at least, do you refuse to eat meat from industrial farms? If no, how can you accuse wraith of not doing something you don't do either? (For the record, I do, and I still understand how reluctant wraith can be to "give themselves over".)
    I am not a vegetarian but when I was young I spent a few months in a moral debate with myself and I came to the decision that if I would continue to eat meat I would do what ever I can to help any form of animal life, just because they help sustain me doesn't mean I don't respect them.
    "I'm being extremely clever up here and there's no one to stand around looking impressed! What's the point in having you all?!" - The Doctor (#11)

  17. #37
    Colonel s09119's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Why do some people insist that the Wraith should have tried creating their own way to not feed on humans thousands of years ago...? Humans never tried to create a way to no have to feed on meat (our bodies need the chemicals found in it, after all), but no one here would dare criticize us for that.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    morals differ from person to person.
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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by tombombadil View Post
    morals differ from person to person.
    yes and no. Their are some morals that people will debate over but their are other morals almost every human will say is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by aretood2 View Post
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Wraith...Amoral or Immoral?

    Quote Originally Posted by jelgate View Post
    yes and no. Their are some morals that people will debate over but their are other morals almost every human will say is wrong.
    such as........
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