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  1. #81
    Second Lieutenant Gothann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    No, those were Darts. The transport ship blip was much larger than the other blips for the Wraith ships.

    Besides, Darts can take out a PJ in.. what... 5 hits without a shield. With the shield, that many darts would drain it in less than a few seconds, only to vaporise the PJ during their last wave of fire.

  2. #82
    Chief Master Sergeant Stargate Agent's Avatar
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    Chevron Re: Before I Sleep

    Another Excellent episode for Atlantis Season One . I have to agree with some of the previous viewers, every episode since the mid season break has been great. None of them have been a bore.

    I loved the Back to the Future jokes as well as character development, it is going very good. I am really starting to feel close to the characters, something that takes over a couple years on a show to happen.

    I am always worried about time travel episodes because A LOT of bad things can happen but this episode was executed very well. This episode reminds me a lot of a early Star Trek The Next Generation episode titled "Time Squared," where Captain Picard meets an alternate version of himself that has travelled back in time.

    I do have one nagging question about this episode though, EVERYONE should comtemplate this. Refer back to SG-1 episode "Point of View" when two Major Carters were in the same reality what about this episode?? Technically two Elizabeth Weir's were in the same reality and neither of them experienced that quantum flux thing that affected both Carters...

    Anyway the writers can't remember everything all the time. This was still a GREAT episode and another blue ribbon for Stargate Atlantis Season One.

    Lt. Ford to Dr Zelenka: "Is this some sort of payback for me beating up guys like you in high school?"
    - Stargate Atlantis: Season One - Hot Zone

    Dr. Beckett: "...Mom...I miss you terribly...*breaks down*...I can't do this!"
    - Stargate Atlantis: Season One - Letters from Pegasus

    Sen. Kinsey: "Do you trust this man?"
    Col. Jack O'Neill: "...No..."
    Mayboune: *shrugs*
    - Stargate SG-1 - Chain Reaction

    Stargate SG-1, Stargate Atlantis I love science fiction

  3. #83
    Major Mio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate Agent
    I do have one nagging question about this episode though, EVERYONE should comtemplate this. Refer back to SG-1 episode "Point of View" when two Major Carters were in the same reality what about this episode?? Technically two Elizabeth Weir's were in the same reality and neither of them experienced that quantum flux thing that affected both Carters...
    That was travel between different universes in the multiverse (McKay referenced the multiverse in this ep, but I don't think it really applied as much as it does to the Quantum Mirror.) This was time travel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothann
    All but Earth can dial in, but Janus must have set it to unlock the adresses from incoming wormholes upon the arrival of the Atlantis Expedition.
    Yes. It would have been very stupid of him to make it more than a one time block.

    However, It's good to know that the Atlantis Stargate has Caller-ID.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    interesting twist on the time travel.


    they dont use one continuous time lloop - they use the whole "there are an infinite number of universes, one for every choice you could ever have made"

    By usual time stuff:

    If Weir by going back in time got to implement the failsafe, etc, and the time ship was gone, when the expedition came through Atlantis would not flood but rise. And there would be no timeship in the docking bay.

    Weir would never go back in time and the implementing of the failsafe, etc would never have happened. And if none of it happened, they would drown,etc. So Weir would go back in time again.

    It would continue as a loop.

  5. #85
    Staff Sergeant
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Brassguy
    If Weir by going back in time got to implement the failsafe, etc, and the time ship was gone, when the expedition came through Atlantis would not flood but rise. And there would be no timeship in the docking bay.

    Weir would never go back in time and the implementing of the failsafe, etc would never have happened. And if none of it happened, they would drown,etc. So Weir would go back in time again.

    It would continue as a loop.
    SG1 Season 8 finale type spoilers:
    Spoiler:

    This episode would actually work quite well with the title "Moebius", since that's kind of how I see it. On a moebius strip, a line drawn down the centre will go once around one side, once around the other side, and back to where it starts - effectively covering two identical journeys on opposite sides of the strip.

    So Dr Weir's actions create two realities - one where there were no failsafes, and one where there are. Each reality is dependent on the existence of the other. In our reality there was no timeship, which means nobody could go back to get the Ancients to build in failsafes, which created the catastrophe in the alternative timeline. Then in that timeline, there was a timeship, so they went back in time, got the failsafes put in, which created the nice happy outcome in our timeline.

    Basically, each timeline creates (and maintains) the other. It deals with the Grandfather Paradox by constructing two universes, and making time travel possible provided it isn't within the same universe.

    Wow, I'm making a weird type of sense here, which may not be sense at all. I guess my point is that from what I've seen of the brief plot outline of the SG1 finale, it looks like that's using a similar model of time travel too - two "presents" each one creating the other one.
    The Unknown James

  6. #86
    Second Lieutenant Gothann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    In contrary to "Point of View", as Stargate Agent described it, there are two Dr. Weir's in the same universe. The thing is, the one we're watching is from her own timeline, created after the events her own timeline where the AE was massacred. In essence, by going back in time to change something, she became part of that universe where two Dr. Weir people can exist from that choice made.
    Last edited by Gothann; December 7th, 2004 at 07:11 PM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient-Jaron
    Good episode. I went in expecting a lot, and came out feeling pretty good about it. I wish there had been more Ancients / Atlanteans interaction, but the story went well w/o it.

    As for ships, I think that opening scene was a friendship thing. Thats how I interpretted it, in any case. And I don't know where the McKay / Teyla "ship" comes from, I haven't seen that in the Atlantis I've been watching...
    Probably from an alternate Atlantis in an alternate timeline...

  8. #88

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Gotta say that I quite enjoyed the episode and sheds some light on the logistical issues of Atlantis still being here after 10,000 years...

    I also really like the small touches of continuity, with 'Morros' being in the hologram, just like when the same actress in 'Frozen' was in the first shot of the Atlantis pilot...

    But now having a point of comparison with Atlantean ships versus the Wraith ships, there's a logistical problem with the technology they use now- If the Atlantean vessels were only moderately more powerful than the Wraith ones 10,000 years ago, how is it possible that the PuddleJumpers they use now have any effect against the Wraith darts in the current timeline?? I assume that in that period the Wraith technology would have advanced significantly, or at least appropriated some of the Atlantean technology.

    That would be somewhat like a clipper ships from the 1900's in battle against a modern Destroyer-class vessel, but with a even larger technological gap. I used to assume that the Atlantis ships were sufficiently advanced that the Wraith 'caught up' over time. This no longer seems to be the case...? The only thing I could think of is perhaps the Wraith were in hibernation for a large chunk of that time, but I think each period of hibernation is something like 100-500 years, nothing close to 10,000 years. I don't know if this has been discussed before in detail, please point me to the appropriate threads if it has!

  9. #89
    Data ShadowMaat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    First off, will people PLEASE remember that not everyone wants to know about Moebius and/or Siege, so please keep any comments about them in spoiler tags. Thank you.

    Second, it was an interesting take on time travel. Personally, I'd liked to have seen a bit more of Weir and the various times she woke up to switch the ZPMs. I mean, did she really just wake up, switch them, and go back to sleep? Didn't she ever have the urge to... I dunno, live a little? So the stasis chamber only slows down metabolic processes and whatnot, it doesn't actually "freeze" them? That explains why she got so old. Even if lifesigns are slowed to a crawl, over the course of ten thousand years, the crawl still adds up.

    I am proud to say that despite all the croonings of the Weir/Shep shippers, I still don't see it and I am very GRATEFUL that I don't see it since all the people screaming about Jack/Sam in SG-1 is what made me "see" it and that helped to ruin the show for me. I'll just ignore all future comments from shippers and stay blissfully unaware of that interpretation.

    Loved that Rodney died a hero. Interesting that Wossname drowned instead of being eaten by the Wraith. I wonder if the Wraith ever even woke up in the original timeline. From the sound of it, not enough people survived (assuming the people trapped in the other puddle jumper even figured out/were able to fly it).

    It would have been nice to see Old Weir's reaction to Teyla. "Who the hell are you?"

    Quote Originally Posted by AsgardCarnage
    and why was the passanger ship trying to break through a seige that had been going on for years why not use the stargate to get back to atlantis from where ever they were?
    Because from what we understand, the Atlantis gate is the only one (or almost the only one) capable of reaching Earth. If they were trying to evacuate the galaxy, they'd need to get to Atlantis to do it. Maybe that's a big assumption on my part. I dunno what the energy levels of the other gates are like, but it's at least a possibility.



    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPig
    One problem, though: Obviously, in "our" reality, ever since Weir was born there has been two Weirs. One on Earth (and later in Atlantis) and one that was on Atlantis all along, in a stasis chamber. And yet, this never caused a "temporal entropic cascade failure on the cellular level".
    Yes, I'd like this explained as well. Unless it's "different galaxy, different rules". Maybe it's just the slow adaptation process, but it still seems a little hinky to me. Old Weir changed the past/future and made it into "ours", but it doesn't change the fact that there are still two Weirs in one timeline... How was it explained in 1969?

    LOVED the Back to the Future references. And I have to say, the portrayal of McKay and Shep were spot-on in this ep, at least from MY perspective. Loved McKay's jab at Shep, too, about not wasting ANOTHER opportunity to speak to an Ancient.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMaat
    Yes, I'd like this explained as well. Unless it's "different galaxy, different rules". Maybe it's just the slow adaptation process, but it still seems a little hinky to me. Old Weir changed the past/future and made it into "ours", but it doesn't change the fact that there are still two Weirs in one timeline... How was it explained in 1969?
    My wild, wild theory is that they are from the same universe (or at least, didn't cross the dimensional barrier), so the quantum signature of the two Weirs was the same, thereby preventing the problem with temporal entropic cascade.

  11. #91
    Second Lieutenant Gothann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    No one survived Atlantis' shield failiure except Weir.

    Beckett (the last person with the Ancient gene who could possibly pilot the PJ) drowned, meaning EVERYONE drowned.

  12. #92
    Second Lieutenant AsgardCarnage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    The only thing I could think of is perhaps the Wraith were in hibernation for a large chunk of that time, but I think each period of hibernation is something like 100-500 years, nothing close to 10,000 years. I don't know if this has been discussed before in detail, please point me to the appropriate threads if it has!
    sure they are asleep but i think the major reason they havn't advanced is because they dont need to, since the human population levels have gone down they have probebly put more time and effort into keeping their race alive and enough food for everyone, they wouldn;t need stronger ships, no one is oposining them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMaat
    Because from what we understand, the Atlantis gate is the only one (or almost the only one) capable of reaching Earth. If they were trying to evacuate the galaxy, they'd need to get to Atlantis to do it. Maybe that's a big assumption on my part. I dunno what the energy levels of the other gates are like, but it's at least a possibility.
    i mean gate back to atlantis then to earth, none of the other gates can reach earth because they dont have the 8th control crystal that atlantis has its not just because they dont have the power.

  13. #93
    Data ShadowMaat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by AsgardCarnage
    i mean gate back to atlantis then to earth, none of the other gates can reach earth because they dont have the 8th control crystal that atlantis has its not just because they dont have the power.
    Ohhhh yeah. *headslap* I dunno, maybe they were on worlds without a stargate?

  14. #94
    Lieutenant Colonel aAnubiSs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Or the Wraith felt like putting up camps at the gates

  15. #95
    Major Athenaktt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    I just have to say this is definatly a great episiode. I was exctied to see it this episode, and now that I finally seen it it had totally exceeded my expectations.

    I enjoyed hearing the different version of the "first" expedition. I loved seeing how Mckay and Sheppard are like "Ha, you died too" to each other. It was like their way of dealing with their death...i think.

    While watching "Before I sleep" it made me think of "2010" not in the story sense...but more like my feeling towards the characters. Even though the season's just started, we are still "getting to know" all the characters, but watching/hearing about Mckay, Sheppard, Old Weir die. I had to admit felt sad.

    This episodes one that evokes bittersweet emotions i guess. Cuz in "2010" when all of future SG-1 died i was sadden by their loss, but glad that they were also still alive...okay i'll stop talking now and go to sleep.

  16. #96
    First Lieutenant fair_nymph's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    I just watched this for the second time, and I have some details to comment on.

    The 'hologram lady' is definitely named Morris/Morose. Old Weir is speaking and says 'But I had an ally..', then we hear Janus saying to Weir,'You need to speak to Morris' and the scene cuts to Janus, Weir, and the hologram lady.

    Only one of the addresses on the note is familar to Rodney/the team. It is MG677, which, I presume, is the planet from Childhood's End. Rodney says 'It's MG677, we've been to this planet,' and nothing more on the matter until later when he repeats that.

    Old Weir refers to the Council as the 'Atleantean Council' and their warships as 'Atlantean warships', so I'm pretty sure that means that the Ancients call themselves Atlanteans.

    Anyone notice that Janus has elvish ears, like Sheppard? Any link/significance?

  17. #97

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by fair_nymph
    Anyone notice that Janus has elvish ears, like Sheppard? Any link/significance?
    I'll ask Greesha. (I hope someone gets it).

  18. #98
    Major Athenaktt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket4477
    I'll ask Greesha. (I hope someone gets it).
    LOL...I think i get it...but i might be delusional too

  19. #99
    Chief Master Sergeant Blend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    dam vulcans

  20. #100

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Ahhh... a surprisingly moving episode ... which reminds me once again of comments that I've heard in the past about the importance of good casting. Wonderful interaction between cast members. Loved the Back to the Future references too.

    Will we see Janus again? I wonder...

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