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  1. #61
    Major astronomicalchick's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Fischer
    Time travel always has issues with paradox, and I'm willing to bet that McKay will have fun sticking it to Carter when they contact with earth. Given that it proves that her theories about time travel paradox were wrong in 1969.
    I dunno, isn't it a ship that jumps time and universes?

  2. #62
    Major Hatcheter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    I just finished watching 'Before I Sleep'. I gotta admit, I didn't have real high hopes for this episode, based on the spoiler info I had read. While it sounded like there would be some interesting stuff to be learned, I didn't think it would be an 'exciting' episode.

    But what spoilers can't say is how well paced a story is, or how much tension there will be. I was on the edge of my seat once the older Wier began telling her version of events. The alternate version where everthing goes straight to hell when they arrive was great. And breaking the story up by having the old Weir fall asleep was perfectly used to up the tension further.

    (It also helped that I watched watched 'Rising' last night, and caught the differences as soon as they started. I wonder if they shot that stuff at about the same time they shot 'Rising", or much later in the shooting schedule.)

    Add the little shippy moment, good character development, plenty of great banter between Sheppard and McKay, and the set up for future episodes of Atlantis and SG-1, and I think this qualifies as another great episode.

    Seriously, since the midseason break, they've hit it out of the park on every episode. And with the possible exception of that impending clips show (though SG-1 got pretty good at those, even), it looks like it's going to continue.

  3. #63
    Second Lieutenant Lexx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    But wouldn't the un-infected ancients help there own dying people rather then run away.
    It was probably clear that there was no cure by then. All the Milky Way Ancients either died from the Plague or ascended. Like Daniel said in "Rising", maybe they just wanted to start over.
    ok but if the Ancients where on earth when Ra got here ... I mean the Cover stone from the Giza gate was what 10 to 15 thousand years ago. So that mean either Ra had come and gone by the time the ancients returned or he got their right after the ancients returned.
    In Stargate the movie, it's said that the cover stone was 10,000 years old. So either:
    A) The Atlantians got there right before it was sealed. They might've even been responsible for instigating the rebellion against the Goa'uld.
    or
    B) The Antarctic gate was exposed from the ice at that particular time period and they popped out there.

    10,000 years ago was when the Goa'uld occupation of Earth ended, not when Ra first discovered the planet.
    MCKAY: We need the Zed PM to power the Gate.

    O'NEILL: What?

    JACKSON: ZPM. He's Canadian.

    O'NEILL: I'm sorry.

  4. #64
    Major Wass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    IMO the timelines are really screwed up now every thing seems to be clashing with each other.

  5. #65
    Major Hatcheter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Wass
    IMO the timelines are really screwed up now every thing seems to be clashing with each other.
    I'm pretty sure TPTB have everything sorted out. They're just going to spoon-feed it too us over then next few years.

  6. #66
    Major Wass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatcheter
    I'm pretty sure TPTB have everything sorted out. They're just going to spoon-feed it too us over then next few years.
    Well I hope so because so far every thing we learn in SGA is conflicting with what we learnt in SG-1.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Good episode. I went in expecting a lot, and came out feeling pretty good about it. I wish there had been more Ancients / Atlanteans interaction, but the story went well w/o it.

    As for ships, I think that opening scene was a friendship thing. Thats how I interpretted it, in any case. And I don't know where the McKay / Teyla "ship" comes from, I haven't seen that in the Atlantis I've been watching...

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    With regard to the name the Ancients give themselves, on more than one occasion they've been referred to as "Lanteans", including by Old Dr Weir when she's talking about the council (which suggests she's calling it the same thing that they're calling it).

    Bear in mind the city would have been named while it still sat on Earth, and the pronounciation of the Earth point-of-origin symbol is "At" - it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that they're called Lanteans, and that the name "Atlantis" is derived from a combination of the point of origin, and the name of their civilisation.

  9. #69
    Second Lieutenant AsgardCarnage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by OfF3nSiV3
    i don't understand..how can weir's team travel trough new worlds and then come back if only earth can dial atlantis?
    janus said he programed the fail safe in, and for the stasis tube to revive weir when her team arives so i guess he also programmed the city to unblock the gate


    Quote Originally Posted by Gothann
    As for the Ancients, they don't refer to themselves as Atlanteans, they don't even refer to themselves at all.
    your right the ancients never refer to them selfs as atlantians, only our kind. but old weir while telling her story calls them atlantians, she must have learned that term from somewhere? also the wraith in "the defiant one" calls them atlantians so i would think it is safe to asume that was their name. but i think that refers to something like their country not species. like i'm australian they are atlantian.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by AsgardCarnage
    janus said he programed the fail safe in, and for the stasis tube to revive weir when her team arives so i guess he also programmed the city to unblock the gate
    I'd guess he might just be referring to the force field - if anybody tried to gate in, the forcefield would come online unless it was a connection from Earth.. As soon as the expedition took manual control of the forcefield, that feature stopped being an issue...
    The Unknown James

  11. #71

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    I'd like the gate address blocking method more, opposed to raising the forcefield. I think Janus would have chosen the option that required the least amount of energy, given what he was trying to accomplish. That is, of course, assuming the gates can put other gates on a "do not disturb" list.

    I also was interested to know that the Ancients had warships. We don't know anything about them (sadly), but it finally fills in a gap we all knew was there, and assumed something existed; now we know for sure.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    My only issue with specifically blocking incoming connections from certain gates is that there is (as yet) no basis for it in SG1..

    Now obviously the Ancients know a little bit more about gate technology than Carter, but still, if there was some signal that goes through the gate/DHD on activation that can identify who is dialing in (not to mention a mechanism to prevent an incoming wormhole), I would have expected the SGC to at least have a go at using that functionality.. Not least of all as a way of preventing attacks like the one that Sokar launched in the episode whose name escapes me right now, but you know which one I mean I'm sure.. A particular planet giving you hassle? Just blacklist it, simple..

    Then again (and here I destroy my own argument), it's plausible just because when the ancients built the gate network I'd imagine a way of refusing incoming wormholes would be quite an important feature. Unless that overconfidence of theirs got the better of them...
    The Unknown James

  13. #73
    Lieutenant Colonel Ugly Pig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Man. What I really want to do now is read everyone else's reaction, but that would violate my promise to myself to write my opinion on every episode this season before reading anything else about it after it has aired. Oh well.

    PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
    of 'Before I Sleep'

    What a frickin' awesome episode! Sort of a mix between 'There But For The Grace of God' (alternate reality in which the entire main cast is killed off, but a note with vital information makes it into "our" reality) and '2010' ("our" reality is created because our heroes successfully change the past). I knew this episode involved time travel, but I had no idea alternate universes were also involved.

    So: When the team originally came to Atlantis, there was no fail safe making it float to the surface when the shield ran out of power, also; there was very little power for the shield left. Dr. Weir travelled to the past and met the Ancients, and made some changes to Atlantis history so that there was a fail safe, and more power to the shield. Therefore, when the expedition arrives ten thousand years later, they're a-okay. (Oh, and because of this, Weir never travels back to the past. Paradox? Nah, alternate reality. I can buy that.) I think I got that right.

    One problem, though: Obviously, in "our" reality, ever since Weir was born there has been two Weirs. One on Earth (and later in Atlantis) and one that was on Atlantis all along, in a stasis chamber. And yet, this never caused a "temporal entropic cascade failure on the cellular level" like when there were two Carters in 'Point of View'. (Of course, that may not have made sense in the first place, but it is Stargate canon.) Maybe temporal entropic cascade failure is a problem that only occurs when someone is travelling between existing realities (through the Quantum Mirror), and not when a new reality is created as a result of tampering with time? That's the story I'm gonna stick with, in any case. I can buy that.

    Let's have some Random observations!
    - The Ancients eventually mastered time travel (obviously some time after the events of 'Window of Opportunity') but appearantly won't allow it being used.
    - Fun references to 'Back to the Future'. Also fun was McKay's reaction to (and discussion with Sheppard about) his fate in the alternate reality.
    - The Wraith siege of Atlantis continued after the city had been submerged in the ocean, while the fighting was taking place in space. My guess is the Wraith just picked up and left when the Ancients evacuated, no longer picking up any life signs.
    - Was the Ancient woman on the council the woman from the hologram in 'Rising'?
    - Was this the least amount of screen time in an episode for Sheppard? Good episode for Weir, though. And I must say, I think Torri Higginson did a great job.
    - So, gate addresses to five planets with ZPMs on them, eh? I guess contact with Earth isn't far off now.

    I'm sure there will be much nitpicking and complaining about continuity issues or flawed logic or whatever problems regarding the time travel/alternate reality that may be found (and if there are none, there are sure to be people misunderstanding everything and there'll still be nitpicking and complaining) but what it comes down to, for me, is that this is the most fun Atlantis episode in a while. And for that, it will get a big fat


  14. #74
    Staff Sergeant AtlantisRising's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    There is nothing i can really add to this summary wise, however, i too, like most of you, found the episode quite enjoyable! Yes yes that IS an undertatement! *lol*

    Knowing that Dr. Mckay risked his life to save Wier, Sheppard and Zelenka really hit me. I mean, it may have been an alternate version of him, however, it does show that he is capable of growing emotionally as a character, and making every moment count, if he puts his mind to it.

    Weir, both of them, did an excecllent job. And ironically I too noticed the different "rising" sequence. Pathetically i was kinda "OMG THATS DIFFERENT!" *lol*

    I felt really bad though when everyone slowly died. It turned my stomach.

    All in all, i hope the epiosdes to come are just as great as most of Atlantis has been.

  15. #75
    Airman Aadizookaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Go Piggy, Go, Express your baaaad self.

    Any way, to end the useless debate on the Name of the Hologram Lady - Melia, her name is said quickly by Janus after the Council meeting.

    To end speculation on what the Ancients call themselves - Atlantian - this is evidenced by the term ATLANTIAN COUNCIL, and Wier's conversation with Janus and Melia, "We call you the Ancients".

    Further, to end fighting over the StarGate being locked out of incoming wormholes - New Galaxy, New Gate System, New Rules - there is no DHD on Atlantis only a control module, a smaller one is on every puddle jumper too.

  16. #76
    Lieutenant Colonel Ugly Pig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    For all we know, there may always have been a built in "identify incoming wormholes" feature in the stargate network that the SGC just never discovered.

  17. #77
    Staff Sergeant
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Aadizookaan
    Any way, to end the useless debate on the Name of the Hologram Lady - Melia, her name is said quickly by Janus after the Council meeting.
    I'm still hearing her name as "Moros", or something along those lines....

    Edit: Okay, I take that back, that seems to be the name of the guy on the council..


    Quote Originally Posted by Aadizookaan
    To end speculation on what the Ancients call themselves - Atlantian - this is evidenced by the term ATLANTIAN COUNCIL, and Wier's conversation with Janus and Melia, "We call you the Ancients".
    They talked about the "Atlantean council", but refer to "Lantean ships", suggesting (at least to me) that the prefix "At-" refers to that city in particular (taking its name from the point of origin of Earth), and that 'Lantean' is the correct name for the race itself. That's also consistent with what the Wraith called them in The Defiant One..
    Last edited by UnknownJ; December 7th, 2004 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Change of mind..
    The Unknown James

  18. #78

    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    A few issues I had were...

    1) The Atlanteans had superior medical technology yet some characters were depicted as aging. Hasn't it been explained that they didn't really age and had perfect health? Don't they have innate healing powers as well? I don't think that's just the case for ascended Ancients. They also thought in terms of human lifetimes ("It's impossible to predict what would happen in such a long period of time").

    2) They only left 10,000 years ago?!?! Didn't the Milky Way Ancients suffer a plague and ascend far earlier than that, i.e. millions of years ago? The Antarctic gate was dated to be 50 million years old... Didn't the Goa'uld rise to power well before this supposed 10,000 year old return? Every time they threw around that number it made me cringe...

    3) When they mentioned that humans were the "second evolution", it just seemed really awkward and out of place, especially since when Janus mentions, it sounds almost as if he has the same understanding of it as McKay or another current character has...

    4) Although this is to be expected, they didn't even touch on the language difference. Weir has been shown to understand Latin, so they could have had a short segment about her overcoming the language barrier.

    5) Why are they dressed like the Tok'Ra?

    The portrayal of the Ancients in this episode just seemed really inconsistent with SG-1 and even with episode 14. Inconsitencies aside, the episode was really enjoyable. I guess I've been spoiled by SG-1 to expect a consistent timeline.
    Last edited by Animaniac; December 7th, 2004 at 04:06 PM.

  19. #79
    Second Lieutenant Gothann's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Quote Originally Posted by Animaniac
    A few issues I had were...

    1) The Atlanteans had superior medical technology yet some characters were depicted as aging. Hasn't it been explained that they didn't really age and had perfect health? Don't they have innate healing powers as well? I don't think that's just the case for ascended Ancients. They also thought in terms of human lifetimes ("It's impossible to predict what would happen in such a long period of time").

    2) They only left 10,000 years ago?!?! Didn't the Milky Way Ancients suffer a plague and ascend far earlier than that, i.e. millions of years ago? The Antarctic gate was dated to be 50 million years old... Didn't the Goa'uld rise to power well before this supposed 10,000 year old return? Every time they threw around that number it made me cringe...

    3) When they mentioned that humans were the "second evolution", it just seemed really awkward and out of place, especially since when Janus mentions, it sounds almost as if he has the same understanding of it as McKay or another current character has...

    4) Although this is to be expected, they didn't even touch on the language difference. Weir has been shown to understand Latin, so they could have had a short segment about her overcoming the language barrier.

    5) Why are they dressed like the Tok'Ra?

    The portrayal of the Ancients in this episode just seemed really inconsistent with SG-1 and even with episode 14. Inconsitencies aside, the episode was really enjoyable. I guess I've been spoiled by SG-1 to expect a consistent timeline.
    Yay! More fun for me.

    1- Ancients (Atlanteans, to be exact) aren't unaging. The oldest looking council member, although looking like he's about 50 in a current human lifespan, could be hundreds of years old. When Janus says "It's unpredictable what can happen in that much time" he's referring to a ZPM being drained before it's time, trapping and killing Weir, or the city being gated to from Earth BEFORE Atlantis Expedition (unlikely).

    2- There is no official canon depiction of when the plague happened. Even TPTB hasn't mentioned when it happens.

    3- Actually, that theory was first made by Dr. Janet Fraiser, when they find Aiyana in Antarctica. She implies that the Ancients must be the first evolution of a Human-like race, making us NOT the first. She bases that on theories that she read about, too. Thing is, that's what most likely happened.

    4- Ancients must have a Universal Translator system. Simple as that.

    5- If you notice, the Tok'Ra have dark brown pads on some of their suits. That aside, the Ancients in Atlantis must have used those clothes when in the city, where they don't need gear-filled armor or clothes. Timeline-wise, chances are the Tok'Ra are the ones who copied off of the Ancients. TPTB criticism-wise... Well, they may be low on budget for this season now...

  20. #80
    Major Mio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Before I Sleep

    Well. This was an excellent episode. It shows a number of trivial little details about the Ancients, for example:

    The have two forms of stasis. Aiyana long-term-full completely frozen stasis, and the kind used in this episode.
    They store data on really neat looking purple things akin to Star Trek Isolinear chips.
    The recorded message was recorded by a member of the counsil
    THEY HAD WAR SHIPS! <sigh> I doubt we'll ever see one, though.


    Anyway, I liked this episode. It gave us a very nice look into the past of Atlantis, and proved that the Wraith couldn't take on the Ancients with equal numbers. If you watched the display screen, it took a HUGE swarm of what I can only assume were Hive Ships, since if they were darts, there would have been thousands of them, to take out a single Ancient ship.

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