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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    Precisely. What really bugs me is that I very much get that you only improve your writing by practising but a) if your writing is - technically - THAT bad, it's not really ready for "publication" and b) very often I see writers responding to concrit about their poor spelling and grammar with "it's just for fun", their attitude being that spelling and grammar don't matter. Well, they do. They're the fundamentals of language - not an optional extra. If you're writing just for fun and can't be bothered to spell etc properly then keep it as a fun hobby, don't publish it and expect people to be bothered to struggle through reading it.
    Yeah. i will NEVER tell someone 'your fic is crap, stop writing', because it's not crap. Just not to my taste. However, i also never give concrit to anyone i don't know. Because, i've run into situations where telling someone 'umm, sorry, siler isn't a major, he's a sgt' gets turned into 'they flamed me!!!!!'

    no, i didn't flame you. And you've obviouslly never been flamed or you wouldn't be misinterpreting things, but whatever

    This is a major peeve for me. Fics where the writer's fave character bias is so obvious it's painful and every other character is written OOC to fit the rose-tinted slant they want to give their fave. A sub-genre of this that I come across time and time again is the Woobie!Rodney fic (particularly in post-Duranda fics) where everyone is sooooooo mean to poor, precious Wodney, who, despite all his bluster, is really a poor, fragile flower who's tender ego is shattered by the heartless behaviour of the people he thought were his friends.... *sob*... so he hides his PAIN and suffers in silence () before nearly losing his life in a reckless, selfless act of sacrifice to save his uncaring friends, who then finally realise what a wonderful, special person he is and how awful they've been to him and are overcome with guilt - GUILT! - as they hover regretfully around his infirmary bed while he hangs onto life by a thread!
    Rodney is obviously the Daniel of SGA. Because that's what i've run into a lot in sg1 fic and why i read very little fic written by folks whose preferences i don't know. And i avoid authors that i know from experience interpret daniel as the 'poor retiring delicate little innocent flower'

    cause, that aint' the daniel that i see. And, often, paired with 'poor widdle...' is 'vilify someone to make 'poor widdle' the victim'.

    some people enjoy it, and good for them. I just dont'.

    I've also run into fanon turning into canon. In fact, there was one fic of mine where, in end game, when sam talks the NID baddies out of firing a missile full of symbiote killer at a planet, in my fic, i have her doing it because ishta's people had taken refuge there.

    it's pure fanon. Yet i've had people contact me, wanting to know where that's said in the show. Someone was writing a 'sg-1 facts' book that she asked me to proof and she had it in there as fact, and it was just fanon.

    it's an example of how something in a fic can become 'reality' because some see it that way. Just like Sammie, holy hannah, space monkey (i hate that term) and other bits of fanon that have overtaken fic to the point that people think they're canon

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    Yeah. i will NEVER tell someone 'your fic is crap, stop writing', because it's not crap. Just not to my taste. However, i also never give concrit to anyone i don't know. Because, i've run into situations where telling someone 'umm, sorry, siler isn't a major, he's a sgt' gets turned into 'they flamed me!!!!!'

    no, i didn't flame you. And you've obviouslly never been flamed or you wouldn't be misinterpreting things, but whatever



    Rodney is obviously the Daniel of SGA. Because that's what i've run into a lot in sg1 fic and why i read very little fic written by folks whose preferences i don't know. And i avoid authors that i know from experience interpret daniel as the 'poor retiring delicate little innocent flower'

    cause, that aint' the daniel that i see. And, often, paired with 'poor widdle...' is 'vilify someone to make 'poor widdle' the victim'.

    some people enjoy it, and good for them. I just dont'.

    I've also run into fanon turning into canon. In fact, there was one fic of mine where, in end game, when sam talks the NID baddies out of firing a missile full of symbiote killer at a planet, in my fic, i have her doing it because ishta's people had taken refuge there.

    it's pure fanon. Yet i've had people contact me, wanting to know where that's said in the show. Someone was writing a 'sg-1 facts' book that she asked me to proof and she had it in there as fact, and it was just fanon.

    it's an example of how something in a fic can become 'reality' because some see it that way. Just like Sammie, holy hannah, space monkey (i hate that term) and other bits of fanon that have overtaken fic to the point that people think they're canon
    Holly Hannah and Space Monkey are canon So is Sunshine

  3. #43
    Alex Danvers jasminaGo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by silly sally View Post
    Holly Hannah and Space Monkey are canon So is Sunshine
    But they were used only once or twice on the show. In fics those terms are used in every other sentance, like they are inseparable part of the characters. Jack calls Daniel spacemonkey once in canon and suddenly in fanon it's their secret code name or Jack says it all the time just to annoy Daniel or whatever...

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasminaGo View Post
    But they were used only once or twice on the show. In fics those terms are used in every other sentance, like they are inseparable part of the characters. Jack calls Daniel spacemonkey once in canon and suddenly in fanon it's their secret code name or Jack says it all the time just to annoy Daniel or whatever...
    Well, the fics are not about canon or else we'd never see any fics where Sam and Jack get together, get married, have kids a.s.o.

  5. #45
    You call that a glowstick?
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    space monkey was used once
    holy hannah twice i believe by sam, once by jacob.

    how about jack calling daniel 'danny boy' every other sentence? He's done it a couple of times to tease daniel, but not all the time.

    in Daniel HC fic, one cliche is, poor wounded daniel choking out J'ak. What? one syllable is too much to say

    Or, how about cracked ribs ALWAYS turning into pneumonia?

    or Jack's tolerance for pain being such that he can - with a broken collar bone - being able to toss sam or daniel over his shoulder and carry them home??

  6. #46
    Brigadier General Crazy Tom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    Not really a fan fic thing, but more of a GWVF hting, Can't stand it when people cal humans Tau'ri.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    SNIP

    or Jack's tolerance for pain being such that he can - with a broken collar bone - being able to toss sam or daniel over his shoulder and carry them home??
    You mean he CAN'T do that??? Break our little hearts why don't you

    Did we ever find a link to the Jack serenading Sam fic??

  8. #48
    Lieutenant General prion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    sometimes, when you write stuff deliberately 'bad' it's called 'crack!fic'
    Oh yeah, I do that with the action figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Alipeeps View Post

    This is a major peeve for me. Fics where the writer's fave character bias is so obvious it's painful and every other character is written OOC to fit the rose-tinted slant they want to give their fave. A sub-genre of this that I come across time and time again is the Woobie!Rodney fic (particularly in post-Duranda fics) where everyone is sooooooo mean to poor, precious Wodney, who, despite all his bluster, is really a poor, fragile flower who's tender ego is shattered by the heartless behaviour of the people he thought were his friends.... *sob*... so he hides his PAIN and suffers in silence () before nearly losing his life in a reckless, selfless act of sacrifice to save his uncaring friends, who then finally realise what a wonderful, special person he is and how awful they've been to him and are overcome with guilt - GUILT! - as they hover regretfully around his infirmary bed while he hangs onto life by a thread!
    Bwahahahaha! Oh sorry, I shouldn't laugh... should I?

  9. #49
    Lieutenant General Alipeeps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prion View Post
    Bwahahahaha! Oh sorry, I shouldn't laugh... should I?
    You have to. Otherwise you'd cry... cry piteous, heartbroken tears of PAIN just like poor Wodney as he sobs brokenly into his pillow each night while his hurtful team mates sit around and flick lit matches at him.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by Alipeeps View Post
    Sadly, MOST long-lost sister/daughter etc fics *are* poorly-written Mary Sues. It's a genre of plotline that is inevitably popular with emo adolescents (though not always - some of those responsible are old enough to know better! ) writing wish-fulfilment fic. There probably are some good stories in this genre out there with well-drawn, believable OCs who aren't spunky, wise-cracking teenagers who everyone immediately accepts and loves and who have unusual names (usually with lots of K's or X's in them) and unsuspected talents and end up being better than the team at just about everything they do and save the day when the team is unable to. It's just that the genre is so replete with just that type of OOC, annoying badfic that I see the word daughter/sister etc in a summary and run screaming!
    Wish fulfillment is what fanfiction is all about, which is why EVERYONE's first few stories are Mary Sue stories. Always. It's how we learn to write and to create original characters. I don't want to discourage that, certainly not over the ill-defined stigma of a "Mary Sue".

    Hell, Samantha Carter is a Mary Sue extraordinaire. Ambiguous name that is female but can be made boyish-sounding- check. Attractive- check. Love interest of one of the leads- check. Men (and Replicators) systematically fall for her from the first glimpse- check. Unusually accomplished and knows way, WAY more than naturally possible- check. Saves the day ten times before breakfast- check. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And yet we're all fans.
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  11. #51
    Town Barber sbz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    On the subject of fanon becoming canon, one I was wondering about not too long ago was someone, probably O'Neill, saying something along the lines of Carter liking to blow stuff up, or just in general that she likes using C4. I can't figure out, if it's canon, where it came from. Anyone have any ideas?

    As for Mary Sues, I've never totally understood it but I think I'd know it when I saw it. As for what Womble said, I don't think it's fair to generalize and say that everyone everywhere has written a Mary Sue when they started.

    And finally, is there a male equivalent to the Mary Sue? Because I think Daniel could fill all the requirements laid out for Carter, except the ambiguous name (come on, fluent in 22 or 23 languages? Not possible). And if there isn't a male equivalent, but there are certainly unrealistically qualified, competent, smart, heroic male characters out there, why is it ok for men and not women? Double standard, anyone? It seems to me to very much be a remnant of the time when all women were good for in fiction/storytelling was looking good, sleeping with the hero, and being the damsel in distress.

    Lastly, I think it's all about execution. Sure, you could call Carter a Mary Sue and maybe you'd be right in a sense. But a Mary Sue created by a 12 year old with bad grammar etc, juvenile plotlines, and a limited world view will be far and away more irritating and unrealistic than a fully conceived character played to such perfection by Amanda Tapping. The Carter character very easily could have come off as God awful if they hadn't found the right actress.

  12. #52
    You call that a glowstick?
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    Default Re: Fanfic Pet Peeves

    it's mary sue or Marty Stu

    same basic characteristics, just different gender. Oh and marty stu's rarely have the 'long naturally curly hair'

    cameron is a marty stu in the worst way. known by the team, injured saving the team, invited to join the team, indulged and welcomed and 'saves' the team.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    it's mary sue or Marty Stu

    same basic characteristics, just different gender. Oh and marty stu's rarely have the 'long naturally curly hair'

    cameron is a marty stu in the worst way. known by the team, injured saving the team, invited to join the team, indulged and welcomed and 'saves' the team.
    You know, I thought there was a reason I didn't much like the guy when he first showed up, besides the fact that they basically threw out the window any chance of seeing Sam take a more active "leadership" role...

    he did grow on me eventually, but I think it would have helped had the show not skipped from "hey, new guy" to them acting as a close knit unit, first name basis, and joking about mitchell losing his pants...

    but I guess with all fairness, the beginnings of SG-1 were much the same, with multiple missions occuring between the space of the pilot and it's conclusion, and the next episode.

    Another bit of fannon turned cannon is Daniel's upbringing. There's soooo many original childhood Daniel fics and regressed Daniel fics... that when I argued some point on one of my beta's stories, that he wouldn't have intimate knowledge of american pop culture up the 60's and 70's, because he lived with his parents on remote digs in other conuntries... only to have it pointed out that it's not cannon... no one really knows how old he was when his parents were killed, or where he'd lived, except that his parents were killed, he watched it happen, nad he had foster parents because his grandfather couldn't be burndened with him.

    You know, I just don't get the appeal to write Daniel kidfic... I can see why kidfic isn't for everyone... but there's such a huge number of Daniel ones, from original childhood, to regressed, with or without memories... and always, always, except on extremely rare circumstances, Jack becomes the caregiver.

    I've heard of one fic where Daniel became the caregiver, and I'll admit it was tempting for me to make daniel the dad in Growing Pains...

    Which makes me wonder... if Sam and Daniel are siblings to the point of being twins (now isn't that another bit of fannon? the science twins?) and whenever Daniel is turned intoa child in fanfic, and Jack adopts him or cares for him, does that make Jack the Daddy of SG-1?

    The sheer number of jack turned Daniel's caregiver fics out there though are somewhat disturbing, and that's not including all the AU childhood ones where Jack's family adopts or is related in some way to Daniel's. (Followed by a rather smaller in comparison number of stories where Sam's family adopts Daniel...)


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  14. #54
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    i think, my canon is a bit rusty, but wasn't daniel 8 or so when his parents died? he saw them die and was not adopted because nick wouldn't give him up.

    so he was raised in foster care

    now, cliched fic is:

    daniel was abused. never even hinted that foster care was abusive.
    Daniel is innocent. Makes no sense to me because, not only was he exposed to various cultures through his parents' digs, he also was turned out into the world at 18. Foster care ends at 18, so he'd have been on his own and taking care of himself.

    He likely grew up in new york, since that's where he was orphaned and children are rarely passed from state custody to state custody

    Daniel is frail and unable to take care of himself. Again, makes no sense because he's been taking care of himself since he was young. Now he may not have experienced as much as Jack has, but in the course of his parents' travels and his own digs, etc, he's at least as well traveled as Jack is, if n ot more so since he'd be more likely to immerse himself into a culture while Jack merely accomplished his missions

    Daniel is not a frail, delicate and fragile person. He's an independant adult male whose open mind and willingness to experience new stuff is likely his greatest liability. He tends to give the benefit of the doubt while Jack tends to NOT trust anyone but his own.

  15. #55
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    Oh, and I think it would have been way cooler in Memento Mori to have had Sam jump on the motorbike... but once Mitchell joined the team, it was like let's have the guy do all the cool stuff... though I do admit that it probably was more in line with Mitchell's flying by the seat of his pants attitude to "confiscate" someone else's property in a pursuit, than Sam's, who is more along the straight and narrow.

    But still, it would have been cooler to see Sam roaring down the road on a bike... Ten years, and we never got to see her on a bike... Just driving that little volvo... I suspect she's got more than one bike. That helmet and leathers she had in Space Race just didn't look like somehting you'd wear on that classic Harley she had in The Curse.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    i think, my canon is a bit rusty, but wasn't daniel 8 or so when his parents died? he saw them die and was not adopted because nick wouldn't give him up.

    so he was raised in foster care

    now, cliched fic is:

    daniel was abused. never even hinted that foster care was abusive.
    Daniel is innocent. Makes no sense to me because, not only was he exposed to various cultures through his parents' digs, he also was turned out into the world at 18. Foster care ends at 18, so he'd have been on his own and taking care of himself.

    He likely grew up in new york, since that's where he was orphaned and children are rarely passed from state custody to state custody

    Daniel is frail and unable to take care of himself. Again, makes no sense because he's been taking care of himself since he was young. Now he may not have experienced as much as Jack has, but in the course of his parents' travels and his own digs, etc, he's at least as well traveled as Jack is, if n ot more so since he'd be more likely to immerse himself into a culture while Jack merely accomplished his missions

    Daniel is not a frail, delicate and fragile person. He's an independant adult male whose open mind and willingness to experience new stuff is likely his greatest liability. He tends to give the benefit of the doubt while Jack tends to NOT trust anyone but his own.

    A lot of Daniel fans argue that Daniel was abused... not because he didn't say it, but apparantly certain mannerisms (which Sam often exhibits as well) seem to make his adorers scream "former abuse victim" Apparantly, Daniel (and Sam to some extent) have a tendency to do this little self hug thing, a "keep away" protective gesture that's argued as a defense for former abuse victims. They don't like to touch or be touched (Daniel more so than Sam, but there's been several times on the show where one or the other is in emotional distress and the distressee curls up in this protective ball and no one touches them to comfort...) the fact that they are genuis, and rather than exhibiting an ego to go along with the superior intellect, they are self concious, have trouble forming personal relationships... there's more, but I forget the arguments about why these gestures and actions seem to make so many people think Daniel was abused in some way in the past, and a lesser number think something happened to Sam as well. She's just a less popular subject.

    But again, that's all fannon... And I'm not saying I agree, that's just the arguments that I've had made aginst me when I argued about the whole Daniel is a former victem thing...


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  17. #57
    You call that a glowstick?
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    it's also - to me - signs of an introvert. And introvert doesn't = abused. It just means that they're not outgoing or boisterous.

    People see what they want to see. I don't think that jacob ever abused sam in any way. I just think that she, after the death of her mother, had no one to confide in or talk to, so she threw herself into her studies and didn't worry about social stuff. thus, as intelligent as she is, she's a social misfit. So is daniel to some extent, because - like sam - he never really had a consistent child hood. Sam likely changed schools every few years, and daniel likely changed homes every so often.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasminaGo View Post
    But they were used only once or twice on the show. In fics those terms are used in every other sentance, like they are inseparable part of the characters. Jack calls Daniel spacemonkey once in canon and suddenly in fanon it's their secret code name or Jack says it all the time just to annoy Daniel or whatever...
    I sooooo agree! They're overused in fanfic, definitely.

    I hate it when the our team members are written out of character. You can make them take any action that fits your fave pairing, situation idea, etc. But they have to do it in character. A crying, whiny Sam is out of character. An overly talkative Jack is out of character.

    Etc....etc...

    But I love fanfic...and there are many fine authors out there...both GW members and folks from other forums!

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbz View Post
    Lastly, I think it's all about execution. Sure, you could call Carter a Mary Sue and maybe you'd be right in a sense. But a Mary Sue created by a 12 year old with bad grammar etc, juvenile plotlines, and a limited world view will be far and away more irritating and unrealistic than a fully conceived character played to such perfection by Amanda Tapping. The Carter character very easily could have come off as God awful if they hadn't found the right actress.
    But that's my whole point- it IS all about execution. It's not about eyes color, long-lost siblings or any of that stuff. What people regard as signs of an approaching Mary Sue are in fact the staples of every writer's arsenal, professionals included. They have come to be cliches because they are the most basic and most effective tools for creating dramatic situations, and as such they are being heavily overused. 19 century's immortal classics are literally swarming with "Mary Sues" (I dare anyone to run a Mary Sue litmus test on Sonia Marmeladova from Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment"), as do modern-day Hollywood blockbusters and soap operas alike.

    There are no Mary Sues, only badly written characters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skydiver View Post
    it's also - to me - signs of an introvert. And introvert doesn't = abused. It just means that they're not outgoing or boisterous.

    People see what they want to see. I don't think that jacob ever abused sam in any way. I just think that she, after the death of her mother, had no one to confide in or talk to, so she threw herself into her studies and didn't worry about social stuff. thus, as intelligent as she is, she's a social misfit. So is daniel to some extent, because - like sam - he never really had a consistent child hood. Sam likely changed schools every few years, and daniel likely changed homes every so often.
    hey, it's not my argument. I agree with you. Folks see what they want to see, and I think Daniel and Sam's social inadequecies are easily explained by their upbringing... In fact, there's a huge nicely written article I found on wikipedia about the american military brat subculture that easily might explain Sam at least. They move alot, have to rely on themselves, learn to fade in and not stick out, they have trouble forming lasting meaningful personal relationships, their parents are usually very strict, with a patriarchal authoritarian environment. Behavior of the child reflected on the service member, and could actually become part of his record, so they had to be strict. If a kid caused trouble in school, the teacher usually called the parent's chain of command first, and then the parent. And in the 70's, it was pretty much standard practice that the soldier's living quarters were inspected regularly by his CO and chain of command, so forget about toys and things laying around.

    And foster kids "f-kids" have a similar set of circumstances. They perhaps had an even less stable social environment, considering that not only was thier location temporary, but thier "family unit" also was...

    But a lot of Daniel fans seem to think he needs to have been abused in his childhood, with the least of that his traumatic experience of witnessing his parent's death (and i think you wre right about 8 years) had not ben dealt with. But few are satisfied with that, and think Saint Daniel needs to have suffered through much worse childhood trauma on top of trauma and somehow not emmerged from it cynical and bitter, but overcame these repeated abuses to be a shining example of human enlightenment. (usually with the help of some mentor or those foster parents he had a picture of in the movie)

    Now, i like Daniel, though I'll admit he was awful Marty Stu like to me when I first started watching the show, and he took the longest of the four original SG-1 members to grow on me, and for me, the hardest one to write of the four. But I do think it's a bit much to think that he not only witnessed his parents die a terrible death, then was rejected by his grandfather who couldn't be burdened with him at the ripe age of 8 but wouldn't let anyone else take him, so left him to the tender mercies of the NY foster care system, but then that he is somehow abused, or neglected on top of that, and still becomes the man he was, naive, caring, passionate, at least he seemed in the early years.... well I don't buy it.

    As for Sam, I dont' think anyone thinks Jacob (or her mother) abused her, but was he strict, likely , most definitely. Probably pretty darn strong willed and uncomprimising. The Carter family likely had it's own sets of problems, before Sam's mother's death tore the family asunder. The years of estrangement, despite forgiveness, speak of a much deeper problem in the family. But abuse? I don't think likely... and I don't think many think she was abused as a child... Not fitting in at school, taunted, bullied perhaps, though I don't think that would trigger it. I think they center in on the Ten Commandments, and her behavior with Jonas. I can see how many would take that episode as a given that Sam became involved in an abusive relationship, or at least a controlling one. And these are probably your folks that think Pete is a stalker/rapist because after all, Jonas was too, and that just means she must be drawn to those sorts of personalities...

    I don't buy it of course. But we all see things differently, and attempting to persuade someone that thinks Daniel was abused in the foster care system and that Sam dates no good rotten wife beaters, is a bit like tryig to persuade a hardcore shipper that there's no way Sam and Jack can have a happily ever after. (With thier triplets.. and don't forget the dog)

    Because Jack doens't stand a chance, cos Sam loves Thor.


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    Last Post: August 12th, 2004, 08:58 AM

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