Weapon Strengths

[morrismike]

noobtauri
1. The nuke blown up over atlantis was more like a hiroshima sized weapon not gigaton. Remember it was made by a culture not far ahead of us in the 40s without the benefit of fermi, opponhiemer, etc.
2. ions are either negative (anions) or positive (cations).
3. What the heck kind of physisist wouldn't know these two things?

[Mister Oragahn]

The nuke blown over Atlantis was from the 304's arsenal, and by looking at the size of the fireball and its duration, it would be around 5-12 megatons, easily.

[Ouroboros]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, especially regarding the feasibility of using missiles in space against aliens armed with lasers or particle beam weaponry where the particles are moving at 99.99% of the speed of light.

They don't seem to have those kinds of weapons though. If they did I'd agree with you. Single large missiles would have trouble hitting them effectively if they were protected by some sort of laser or particle beam defensive grid. A defensive grid like that would also double as defense against things like 302s, PJs or Alkesh/Gliders that tried to appraoch the ship. It would probably even work on drones. With defences like that you'd have to really saturate them with missiles and use things like stealth or jamming on the missiles to try and confuse the targeting systems on the target ship.

This is the standard operating procedure for ship combat in the Andromeda universe actually. Lots of layered defensive countermeasures to shoot down missiles and lots of small eveasive missiles with jamming to try and sneak through those countermeasures.

This isn't the case in gateverse though. anybody can watch the show and see tha the bolts don't move anywhere near lightspeed. I'm curious as to on what you're basing your ideas that they are infact lightspeed or near lightspeed weapons because it can't be the visuals on the show.

[Mister Oragahn]

For more meaningful content, notably yields, we should at least define the nature of weapons we'd like to study.
While chemical missiles and nuclear ordinance, enhanced or not, can be properly gauged, it gets far more tricky with advanced weapons.

That said, there are certain systems for which we can provide specs, without necessarily telling how much joules they pour into enemies' defenses.

Two of these systems are the Lantian satellite beam, and the stargate's Asuran beam.

The first was powered by a Nq generator Mk-I. I put specs for such generators there, and I consider them reliable.
We have evidence of overloads in the kiloton range, and an absolute low end power of 23.3 gigawatts. This figure is based upon the premise that the Mark II lasted ten minutes.
A higher end figure use the 20 kilotons figure for the overload, and assumes that this was obtained solely by charging the reactor with energy, all that within 30 seconds, as said by McKay. Which gives a power figure of 2.789 terawatts.

It's actually likely that the low end is less reliable that the high end for a simple reason. A Mark I generator was used in the Ceberus, a small cargo ship racing for the Kon Garat Loop, in episode "Space Race".
At some point, while the ship is flying extremely close to a yellow sun, the power circuit is burnt due to sabotage. Shields and other systems are down. The ship survives on armour only for several minutes.
Then they reroute the naqahdah generator back into the ship's power grid, and the Tau'ri reactor is again operational, and provides power to the ship. This enables the crew to raise shields and put other systems back online.
Simply put, the amount of power which would be needed to protect a ship that close to a sun would require power outputs in the terawatts, even if some capacitors were precharged and even if another power source was associated to this one. A smaller power output wouldn't have made much of a difference against the one already present onboard the Ceberus.

Anyway, even with a charge of a few minutes, the Lantian beam weapon could have not been pouring more than kilotons of energy into that beam. Yet, said beam had enough juice to slice three hiveships, and by the damage it caused to just one, literally going through the armour like a hot knife through butter, we're looking with an advanced beam system which gets more results against solid matter than the energy it uses.
That's like a zat beam, if you like. It "eats" matter rather easily, much like squid drones can in fact.

The Asuran beam is particular. While barely scratching an asteroid which was, say, 80 meters large, and lightly damaging a fragile tower with a grazing shot, it could drain a nearly full ZPM within 29 hours, by hitting the shield tapping into said ZPM (which contrats with other shields systems which seem to run on capacitors and can't be recharged as long as they are used, ref: Ha'taks, Prometheus).
Considering the planet busting abilities of a ZPM (at least, Zero Hour's final verdict pointed to supernova levels of total energy production), we're looking at a beam which has a very low direct energy transfer capacity, yet is powered by one or more ZPMs, and can drain one in a bit more than one day.
I believe that this device was very specific to Lantian shields, as the Apollo's shields didn't seem to suffer that much when hit by the beam for around a second.

Gatebusters have low end theoretical yields of 812 gigatons, but visuals point to yields in the one digit teraton range.

The ones which are worth an observation are the Al'keshes.
I think that concerning Goa'uld weapons, ce could indeed pretend that they're able to wear out shields by having said shields suck out more energy from their associated power sources.

However, I'd like to suggest that Goa'uld wouldn't allow their Jaffa to pilot Al'keshes with the ability to shoot megaton shots at their enemy. Therefore, Al'keshes, and even maybe Death Gliders, would be equipped with those funky plasma weapons which can drain shields as well.
So would Ha'taks, but with the crucial difference that a Ha'tak's weapons could be modulated to make bolts contain more raw energy if necessary, to reach, at least, the hundreds of megatons yields, like 200 MT. So Ha'taks would fire shield draining bolts at other ships, but could burn a whole world by making shifting their weapons to a "rawer" mode, more primitive.
This may tie all loose ends regarding Goa'uld heavy weapons.

Besides, Ha'tak's bolts have a significant punching ability. Remember the death of Horus. His ships was literaly kicked backwards as it was hit by the fire from Apophis' supership.
Or remember the bolts fired by Ba'al's ships, above Kelowna, which punched through Anubis' ship.

On that note, I believe that Anubis' ship was of a weaker structural design. See, it's very possible that contrary to Ha'taks which rely on sheer material strenght to remain particularily tough, I suppose that Anubis had a ship a bit too identical to Atlantis, in that it was fragile. I think his ship may have structural integrity fields, to reinforce the structure of his ship, but those fields weren't powered anymore after Fallen, when the internal core blew up.
Yes, it's good to remember that this ship did loose her own main core at that point, as it literally blew up inside. There's no doubt about the new fragility plaguing Anubis' ship by the time he voyaged to Langara.

[Mister Oragahn]

This isn't the case in gateverse though. anybody can watch the show and see tha the bolts don't move anywhere near lightspeed. I'm curious as to on what you're basing your ideas that they are infact lightspeed or near lightspeed weapons because it can't be the visuals on the show.

Maybe he's watching DVDs on superfast play?

[Lt. Col. Mcoy]

Oh, and Felger confirms in 'Avenger 2.0' that the Goa'uld weapons fire packets of plasma. I believe he even references ions.

[Andru10]

Oh, and Felger confirms in 'Avenger 2.0' that the Goa'uld weapons fire packets of plasma. I believe he even references ions.

Thank you !

[EternalAlteran]

my estimates

Goa'uld capital weapon: 200 megaton
Asgard capital weapon: 500 megaton (it might be a special shield penetrating design, it used several shots in New Order to kill a Replicator ship)
Ancients drones: depending on the amount of energy available (it draws energy from a powersource, if the source goes offline the drones go too(The Tower))
Traveler energy weapon: 200+ megaton
Wraith energy weapon: 1 gigaton (the strongest attack)
Ori pulses: 500 megaton
Ori main weapon: several gigatons
Asgard Plasma beam: several plasma beams (but maybe weaker than the Ori weapon only more effective on shield penetrating)

[JSPuddlejumper]

The Asgard weapon is probably weaker than the Ori one, but may have better shield pentrating properties. Still it can take out most ships with 2 hit combos as needed. Where the Ori beam does it in 1 shot. Say only 1/2 power then, but more beams per ship vs. 1 beam for Ori ship.

It is difficult to class Ori or Asgard energy weapons, they are very powerful. I doubt the Wraith ones are more powerful.

The Asgard build the O'Neill to be a warship, so its energy weapons are top level. The Ori followers use knowledge of Ascended to build their ships, their energy weapons are obviously at the top.

[morrismike]

MR O
When a reactor or nuclear device is building towards detonation it is going from subcritical (generation time 100 milliseconds) to "prompt" critical (for U235 the generation time would be 10 to 26 microsecond - naquada would be similiar). The portrayal on the show is false so that a person having never taken a nuclear physics class can understand what is happening. The boom occurs over the period of a few microseconds and the the peak power prior (more than a few seconds) to the boom would be miniscule. Those mkI generators that you see might, and I stress might generate a few megawatts of usable power - that's it. If the power output ever exceeded 150% of whatever the true max would be it would be damaged (electrically and/or thermally). If the power exceeded 200% for more than a second or two it would probably break it. When they overload this reactor you basically get a big suitcase or battlefield artillary nuke.

at time = 0s reaction rate is at minimum lets say 5 watts
at time = 26microsec reaction rate is double lets say 10 watts
at time = 52microsec reaction rate is at quadrupel lets say 20 watts
at time = 78 microseconds reaction rate is at 10x lets say 40 watts
at time = 104 microseconds reaction rate is at 20x lets say 100 watts
you see where this is going

What will happen is the power will buildup faster than the mechanism can absorb heat and melt. If the mechanism breaks down you get a fizzle (maybe a 1000 pound bomb worth). If the mechanisms remains intact long enough the prompt critical reaction will result in a lot of power over a few seconds.

Unlike the other guy, I actually am a mechanical engineer who took nuclear physics when I was in the navy (I currently work at a nuclear plant).

[Mister Oragahn]

Good thing that we have you there mike, I'm going to torture you until I get what I want to know.

MR O
When a reactor or nuclear device is building towards detonation it is going from subcritical (generation time 100 milliseconds) to "prompt" critical (for U235 the generation time would be 10 to 26 microsecond - naquada would be similiar). The portrayal on the show is false so that a person having never taken a nuclear physics class can understand what is happening.

Well on the other hand it's false, I'm sure that means I actually don't get what's happening.

The boom occurs over the period of a few microseconds and the the peak power prior (more than a few seconds) to the boom would be miniscule. Those mkI generators that you see might, and I stress might generate a few megawatts of usable power - that's it.

Naqahdah is must more potent than traditional nuclear reactants. This might clash with real world physics you know though.

If the power output ever exceeded 150% of whatever the true max would be it would be damaged (electrically and/or thermally).

I agree. That's precisely why I worked backwards from the Mk II, since it is said it can provide 600% of a MK I power, but for a short time, before it gets depleted. Contrary to other materials, it seems it's not too hard to get naqahdah blow up and react. See, potassium was able to generate a nuclear reaction with naqahdah.
It doesn't require much to get a nuclear reaction with naqahdah, so it's very logical that when the Mk II is dead, it's that it cannot generate energy anymore with what's left of reactants.
In a traditional plant, I suppose that a shutdown could be due to plenty of other things safe reactant pool being entirely depleted.

If the power exceeded 200% for more than a second or two it would probably break it.

On a Mk I, yes.

When they overload this reactor you basically get a big suitcase or battlefield artillary nuke.

at time = 0s reaction rate is at minimum lets say 5 watts
at time = 26microsec reaction rate is double lets say 10 watts
at time = 52microsec reaction rate is at quadrupel lets say 20 watts
at time = 78 microseconds reaction rate is at 10x lets say 40 watts
at time = 104 microseconds reaction rate is at 20x lets say 100 watts
you see where this is going

This quite fits with reactor buildups in the show, safe that McKay said it would take 30,000 milliseconds to reach overload.

What will happen is the power will buildup faster than the mechanism can absorb heat and melt. If the mechanism breaks down you get a fizzle (maybe a 1000 pound bomb worth).

We indeed get a sort of fizzle when the goa'uld busters failed, there's no doubt on that. But it was raw naqahdah, not refined naqahdah for reactors, even less weapon grade naqahdah.

If the mechanisms remains intact long enough the prompt critical reaction will result in a lot of power over a few seconds.

As I get it, but it could be wrong, you need to reach the chain reaction threshold, so that like a nuke, the reaction goes on a liberates a lot of power. This is what I consider for the low end output of the Mk I generator, in pointing out that the 20 kilotons were the sole result of the whole naqahdah taking part in a chain reaction generated as the much lower maximum power output was reached (overload).

There's still the very problem that the mk I provided enough energy to a starship which shields would be drained at impressive rates which, I'm afraid, megawatts would be terribly short of.

[Cylinder]

if daedy class ships can take 74 gigatons of damage before shield failure, can it be assumed that the ori capital weapon has 37 gigatons in one shot? as i recall 2 shots depleted the korolev's shields and a third finished it off

[morrismike]

Mr O
That power ascension was exponential with a 26 microsecond generation time. It would be at an obscene power level in about a second. I'll assume the slowest ascension possible (Keff = 1.004)
time 0 1 watt
time 26 microsecond 1.004 watt
time 52 microsecond 1.004 squared watts and so on

This seems like a slow ascension but this will be at an obscene power in seconds not minutes. Perhaps Sam did something to a safety safety that took 30 minutes until it ultimately failed. The mk II would fail after a few minutes at its rated power (say 10 MW or so) as we've seen and most likely could not tolerate an overload for any duration.

The potassium reaction was chemical not nuclear. A pinch of powdered elemental (not oxidized) plutonium would be just as nasty. I think Uranium is pretty lame from a chemical reaction standpoint though (ditto for thorium).

[morrismike]

Mr O
The gould busters used on apophis were destroyed by their own kinetic energy when impacting shields. If the nukes have detonated, the emp would have wreaked havok on systems, just like it did atlantis with a much smaller weapon.

[morrismike]

What starship was powered with a mkI? Shields (and perhaps the sat. weapon) operate off a buffer so a small source would work. There is no frickin way a reactor with just a few pounds of fissionable material in that small a package can be putting out more than a few megawatts. There is a misconception that those things have 100s and perhaps 1000s of megawatts which is simply beyond what the laws of thermodynamics allow.
Thermal power = heat transfer coefficient x heat transfer area x logmeandelta T
Perhaps the reactor can harness the kinetic energy of fission products and converting that into electricity and even then mass still must be destroyed and I must tell you that the fissionable material in a megaton bomb would run your garden variety civilian reactor for a few minutes - that's it. The mass that is actually destroyed in a fission reaction is on the order of 200 MeV per reaction. There isn't anything you can do to increase this other than force the reaction to prodcue a large number of daughters versus the typical two per fission and even there you'd only get another 50% or output per fission.