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  1. #81
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
    I got to disagree here. We are talking about energy weapons here, and energy moves at the speed of light. Unless you can prove that Einstein was wrong about his theory of special relativity - in which case I foresee a Nobel in physics for you -, then there is no reason to assume that an energy weapon won't be able to shoot down any missile. Besides, you are forgetting that shields are massively strong. I mean really, really, really strong. Remember that ha'taks have the weakest shields of any vessel in Sgverse, and yet we've seen the shield of Apophis ha'tak take a 1 gigaton nuclear explosion in point blank and nothing happened to it besides that it shaked a little bit. If such a weak shield can resist a 1 gigaton explosion, then there is no reason to assume that mid to high gigaton nuclear explosions will take out the much stronger shields of Anubis' ha'taks, of Asgard motherships and Ori warships. The way to bring down these shields is not by brute force, because only probably a supernova or hypernova has the capacity to bring down those shields by this method, but rather to use specific beams composed of specific energy particles that make the shield oscilate, and concentrate all that power in a single spot until it collapses. Shields, even the weakest ones, are simply to effective at deflecting energy per square inch/foot of surface to be brought down.
    This would be true if only the Goa'uld used EMR guns, like hard gamma rays, photons or else. But they use plasma bolts of exotic nature and composition, which largely ignore gravity, and travel much slower than light.

    Of course that the Goa'uld should be able to use true lasers. We're already having lasers. But it's not their point.

    And true lasers are the black sheep of TV SF, because you cannot see them as long as you fire in vacuum, unless you merge them with some technobabble to make them visible.

    At best, you can propel "plasma" bolts at super speeds like if they were solid projectiles. Then the plasma gains a significant kinetic energy added to its original energy, whatever it's supposed to be.

    Apophis' ship never took the full yields of the gatebusters. The terran missiles were destroyed before reaching the ship, as shields were not foreseen by Stargate Command and Norad.
    These explosions, due to the naqahdah present in the warheads, still managed to release powerful EM waves.
    I'm also sorry, but you don't need anything as crazy as supernovas or hypernovas to take down Ha'tak shields. That's terribly incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnadreth View Post
    Yet nuclear weapons are capable of blowing up Wraith Hive ships rather easily while the Ancients used rather inneficient Drone weapons. Drone weapons are admittedly powerful but are an ammunition based weapon that is hard to produce hence why there is precious few drones in Pegasus. Its easier to kill a hive ship with nukes than to build drone weapons let alone ZPM's. As I have said before building an entire fleet which is ammunition dependent restricts the time the ship is operational for before re-load especially when they have very powerful energy weapons at their disposal yet are not installed aboard warships. The Ancients had science but they did not understand war as the Taur'i or the Asgard do
    Nukes exploding inside. It literally bypasses the heavy armour to hit critical systems.

    Please consider one simple thing, while we're at it. We've seen entire hiveships being totally vapourized by internal explosions due to nuke beaming. However, even if the beamed nukes were worth of one or two gigatons, they couldn't entirely vapourize 11 kilometers long spaceships covered with armour which has been able to resist nukes which would be, at least, in the megaton range.
    You need much much more energy to do so.
    The logic behind this being that the energy for such explosions didn't come from the beamed nukes, but from the reactants or energies constrained into Wraith cores. And that's a lot of energy.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    This would be true if only the Goa'uld used EMR guns, like hard gamma rays, photons or else. But they use plasma bolts of exotic nature and composition, which largely ignore gravity, and travel much slower than light.
    I'm sorry, but can you supply evidence for this contention? The only race in Sgverse which we know for sure created plasma beam weaponry are the Asgard, and even then only in season 9. I know for a fact that the Beliskner utilizes energy weaponry that can destroy a Ha'tak with one shot, and the O'Neil utilizes energy pulse cannons that can destroy even Anubis' ha'taks - and we know this because Anubis backed down from the O'Neils. The weapons of the O'Neil are extraordinarily powerful, yes, but they are still regular good ol' particle beams and not plasma beams. We only got to see plasma beam weaponry in "Unending" the very last episode of season 9. And the only reason the Asgard even cared to develop them is because plasma beams are pretty much the only thing that can bring down the hyper-powerful shields of Ori motherships - not even the weaponry of the O'Neil, as formidable as it is, could do that. So unless you prove otherwise, we need to assume that plasma weapons only came into the scene in "Unending".

    And true lasers are the black sheep of TV SF, because you cannot see them as long as you fire in vacuum, unless you merge them with some technobabble to make them visible.
    This is redundant because this is sci-fi. A physicist and engineer like myself might be upset to see visible lasers, but the general viewer couldn't give a damn.

    At best, you can propel "plasma" bolts at super speeds like if they were solid projectiles. Then the plasma gains a significant kinetic energy added to its original energy, whatever it's supposed to be.
    Again, the beams fired from ha'taks, hives and Asgard warships seem to move at light speed. Of course, we can't see something moving at light speed, but what I'm saying is that it dosen't seem to be moving at speeds significantly slower than 192,000 mp/h.

    Apophis' ship never took the full yields of the gatebusters. The terran missiles were destroyed before reaching the ship, as shields were not foreseen by Stargate Command and Norad.
    These explosions, due to the naqahdah present in the warheads, still managed to release powerful EM waves.
    Ok, perhaps I'm wrong about the bomb detonating, but the bottom line is that we have seen that the shields of ha'taks can resist being in the coronosphere of stars for hours, which means they can take quite a punch. We also know they can easily take the firepower of other ha'taks at 200 megaton a pop, which is also quite a punch.

    I'm also sorry, but you don't need anything as crazy as supernovas or hypernovas to take down Ha'tak shields. That's terribly incorrect.
    Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. Where did I say that the shields of ha'taks can only be brought down by supernovas? I said that they likely can resist energy blasts in the gigaton range. I said that the far more powerful shields of Asgard motherships, of Anubis' ha'taks, Ancient warships and Ori motherships can probably only brought down through sheer strengh by something like a supernova explosion, and I am sticking to that statement. Le't's see...Sam Carter mentioned that ha'taks fires bolts at 200 megaton a pop. We know that the shields of ha'taks can take that firepower easily, because we have seen ha'taks firing at each other several times. Now, consider that Asgard shields are much stronger than those of ha'taks. How much could they take? Even if only 10 times more, that already gets us into the gigaton range. So I'm not buying that gigaton level nukes could bring down Asgard shields or Ori shields. Sorry. We have seen in "Camelot" an Ori motherships being hit by the combined firepower of several ha'taks and one O'Neil at once, and the shield didn't even fluctuate. The firepower of an O'Neil is massively superior than ha'taks, and even that didn't make the Ori shields fluctuate, so I''m sticking to my theory that super-concentrated beams of exotic particles are a more effective way of bringing down shileds than gigaton nukes until presented with counter-evidence. You are welcome to do that.
    Last edited by NoobTau'ri; June 20th, 2008 at 06:30 PM.

  3. #83
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
    I'm sorry, but can you supply evidence for this contention? The only race in Sgverse which we know for sure created plasma beam weaponry are the Asgard, and even then only in season 9.
    I believe staff weapons were described as plasma based, and Ha'tak's guns look like super staff cannons. Besides, what else could they be? Solid projectiles? No.
    Lasers, obviously not.
    It doesn't leave much beyond "glowing bag of energized particles". Likely exotic supercharged bags of ions.

    I know for a fact that the Beliskner utilizes energy weaponry that can destroy a Ha'tak with one shot...
    It's very nice that you know that fact because I don't know where you found it. I've never heard, nor seen anything showing that an Asgard ship could one shot a Ha'tak.

    ... and the O'Neil utilizes energy pulse cannons that can destroy even Anubis' ha'taks - and we know this because Anubis backed down from the O'Neils. The weapons of the O'Neil are extraordinarily powerful, yes, but they are still regular good ol' particle beams and not plasma beams.
    They fire pulses which have much more to do with your average SF plasma bolt than a true particle beam.

    We only got to see plasma beam weaponry in "Unending" the very last episode of season 9.
    Just because it is described as plasma weaponry doesn't mean other weapons can't be. For example, Tollan used ion cannons, and surprise surprise, the bolts were just your average SF bolt.

    And the only reason the Asgard even cared to develop them is because plasma beams are pretty much the only thing that can bring down the hyper-powerful shields of Ori motherships - not even the weaponry of the O'Neil, as formidable as it is, could do that. So unless you prove otherwise, we need to assume that plasma weapons only came into the scene in "Unending".
    Not really. If it was that simple, that is, use plasma instead of anything else, it wouldn't require superscience out of Goa'uld reach to get those.
    All we know is that it's a weapon based on a given sort of plasma, and that's all. The mere fact that the beams don't dissipate from the moment they're fired, like a water hose, precisely show that they are beams of whatever that keeps the magic plasma beam shaped rather conveniently.
    And again, these beams are terribly slow.

    This is redundant because this is sci-fi. A physicist and engineer like myself might be upset to see visible lasers, but the general viewer couldn't give a damn.
    You realize that you physicist and engineer has completely shot your own foot, right? The point I was making is that Goa'uld don't use lasers. One of the reasons being that it's TV SF, where real lasers suck.
    So the only option left is to fire particles or solid projectiles as fast as possible to intercept missiles. Or advanced missiles, like drones.
    Particles? The Goa'uld bolts are notoriously slow. Kinetic guns? Only the Tau'ri use railguns. Missiles? The Tau'ri's missiles are pathetic in speed and capacity to reach a target on their own. Only Alteran drones rule supreme.
    The Goa'uld have nothing of that.

    Again, the beams fired from ha'taks, hives and Asgard warships seem to move at light speed.
    You're a physicist and an engineer and you tell me these bolts move at light speed?
    Who do you think you're kidding with that pretense exactly?

    Of course, we can't see something moving at light speed...
    I wonder if I'd like to engage in semantics about what seeing means. Like if all we see is only photons.

    ...but what I'm saying is that it dosen't seem to be moving at speeds significantly slower than 192,000 mp/h.
    For the love of Hoff, just watch a frakin' episode at least.

    Ok, perhaps I'm wrong about the bomb detonating, but the bottom line is that we have seen that the shields of ha'taks can resist being in the coronosphere of stars for hours, which means they can take quite a punch.
    Would you rate that "star punch" by any chance?

    We also know they can easily take the firepower of other ha'taks at 200 megaton a pop, which is also quite a punch.
    Yes, this is more or less correct, though there's always people to remind us that the 200 megaton is, first, from an AU universe, even if every bit of tech seemed the same, and secondly, that we have no proof that it came from the cannons.
    However, we've never seen the Goa'uld hurl nukes.

    Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.
    Priceless.

    Where did I say that the shields of ha'taks can only be brought down by supernovas?
    Oh yes, sorry. Excuse me. You were just pulling numbers out of your arse about asgard, ori and anubis' shields (which are still Goa'uld shields need I remind you).
    Supernova only capable of taking them down?
    You just have no clue what you're talking about.

    I said that they likely can resist energy blasts in the gigaton range. I said that the far more powerful shields of Asgard motherships, of Anubis' ha'taks, Ancient warships and Ori motherships can probably only brought down through sheer strengh by something like a supernova explosion, and I am sticking to that statement.
    No, they can only be taken down by energies worth of... anything that can destroy a galaxy. There.

    Oh, I don't have evidence. *shame*

    Le't's see...Sam Carter mentioned that ha'taks fires bolts at 200 megaton a pop. We know that the shields of ha'taks can take that firepower easily, because we have seen ha'taks firing at each other several times. Now, consider that Asgard shields are much stronger than those of ha'taks. How much could they take? Even if only 10 times more, that already gets us into the gigaton range. So I'm not buying that gigaton level nukes could bring down Asgard shields or Ori shields. Sorry.
    Did I claim that? Who has reading comprehension problems now?
    I want proof that Asgard ships, notably Biliskners, can one shot Ha'taks, pre-Anubis.

    We have seen in "Camelot" an Ori motherships being hit by the combined firepower of several ha'taks and one O'Neil at once, and the shield didn't even fluctuate. The firepower of an O'Neil is massively superior than ha'taks, and even that didn't make the Ori shields fluctuate, so I''m sticking to my theory that super-concentrated beams of exotic particles are a more effective way of bringing down shileds than gigaton nukes until presented with counter-evidence. You are welcome to do that.
    I won't bother with counter evidence because there's no evidence to counter to boot.
    Learn the meaning of evidence first.

  4. #84
    Lieutenant Colonel Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Well Mr. oragahn beat me to most of this but since you did address this to me I suppose I should have a word as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
    I got to disagree here. We are talking about energy weapons here, and energy moves at the speed of light. Unless you can prove that Einstein was wrong about his theory of special relativity - in which case I foresee a Nobel in physics for you -, then there is no reason to assume that an energy weapon won't be able to shoot down any missile.
    I think you're getting to hung up on the fact that they call them "energy weapons" in the show. They're just generic glowing sci-fi "pew pew" guns like the ones in starwars or any number of other sci-fi shows. They all work the same way. Colourful glowing thing shoots out, hits something and blows it up.

    To put it another way, the glowing blobs of doom fired by ships in stargate resemble a lightspeed weapon about as much as Teal'c resembles a 110 pound Valley Girl. This isn't news to anybody, neither are the spitting distance ranges they have to fight at as a result.

    Besides, you are forgetting that shields are massively strong. I mean really, really, really strong. Remember that ha'taks have the weakest shields of any vessel in Sgverse, and yet we've seen the shield of Apophis ha'tak take a 1 gigaton nuclear explosion in point blank and nothing happened to it besides that it shaked a little bit. If such a weak shield can resist a 1 gigaton explosion, then there is no reason to assume that mid to high gigaton nuclear explosions will take out the much stronger shields of Anubis' ha'taks, of Asgard motherships and Ori warships. The way to bring down these shields is not by brute force, because only probably a supernova or hypernova has the capacity to bring down those shields by this method, but rather to use specific beams composed of specific energy particles that make the shield oscilate, and concentrate all that power in a single spot until it collapses. Shields, even the weakest ones, are simply to effective at deflecting energy per square inch/foot of surface to be brought down.
    -As mentioned by Mr. O already, the Goa'uld buster didn't detonate as evidenced by the lack of a nuclear flash the same sort of EMP type effect occured when Carter energised a small amount of naquada in the SGC.

    -It's likely that the alien weapons do incorperate some sort of special shield damaging extra property but this isn't because the shields are to super duper powerful to be brought down otherwise. This idea was something that various people dreamed up as an attempt to explain why the weapons seem to have such a miserable sub kiloton DET content in so many scenes and yet they can still drop shields that are theoreticaly being powered by large naquada reactors and enduring things like the blue giant example.

    There's nothing however to suggest that a strike or strikes from large naquada boosted nuclear missiles, (provided they're finally fused properly) would be inherently ineffective against shielded ships. Especially when you take into account all the added perks of a vastly longer ranged fully guided weapon.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    I believe staff weapons were described as plasma based, and Ha'tak's guns look like super staff cannons. Besides, what else could they be? Solid projectiles? No.
    Lmao...so you are basing all this conjecture on visual evidence? Of course they are not solid, but you have no evidence that they are not photons or particles that are accelerated to speeds very close to light.

    Lasers, obviously not.
    "Obviously" not? Why? Because they shine? This is sci-fi and not actual science, dude. Get your head out of your ass. The writers can basically say whatever they want and it is canon.

    It doesn't leave much beyond "glowing bag of energized particles". Likely exotic supercharged bags of ions.
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiight...you know, like those ion cannons from the Tollans that could destroy ha'taks in one shot, huh? Don't you think that if they were a particle beam weapon that shoots accelerated ions, then every ha'tak would be able to destroy another with one shot too? Why doesen't this happen? Answer: because the ha'tak weaponry is not based on ions. The end.

    It's very nice that you know that fact because I don't know where you found it. I've never heard, nor seen anything showing that an Asgard ship could one shot a Ha'tak.
    Lmao...even the Beliskner class ship could take out ha'taks in one shot. Why do you think that Anubis' jaffas were visibly trembling when Thor showed up in his Beliskner and powered up his guns to shoot down Anubis' ship as punishment in violation of the Protected Planets treaty? Because they knew that Goa'uld mothership shields are no match for the firepower of Asgard motherships. They weren't sure if the upgrades Anubis put in his vessels would be able to withstand Asgard weaponry. This is called logical deduction, and you fail miserably at it.

    They fire pulses which have much more to do with your average SF plasma bolt than a true particle beam.
    Evidence please? Your endless speculative conjectures are starting to bore me...

    Just because it is described as plasma weaponry doesn't mean other weapons can't be. For example, Tollan used ion cannons, and surprise surprise, the bolts were just your average SF bolt.
    Ion cannons are not plasma beam weaponry. Plasma is a super hot substance, while I am led to infer that ion cannons shoot some form of negatively charged particles( as "ions" used in the opposite sense as "cations". Unless the word plasma is stated literally, then we must assume by proxy that the beam weapon is not plasma based.

    Not really. If it was that simple, that is, use plasma instead of anything else, it wouldn't require superscience out of Goa'uld reach to get those.
    All we know is that it's a weapon based on a given sort of plasma, and that's all. The mere fact that the beams don't dissipate from the moment they're fired, like a water hose, precisely show that they are beams of whatever that keeps the magic plasma beam shaped rather conveniently.
    And again, these beams are terribly slow.
    Your argument is wrong because the Goa'uld didn't have these weapons, which leads me to infer they didn't have the capacity to make them , otherwise they would. Why? Because it would allow them to slice the ha'taks of rival System Lords with ease if they did, so you can bet your ass they would have them if they could make them. But apparently they can't.

    You realize that you physicist and engineer has completely shot your own foot, right? The point I was making is that Goa'uld don't use lasers. One of the reasons being that it's TV SF, where real lasers suck.
    So the only option left is to fire particles or solid projectiles as fast as possible to intercept missiles. Or advanced missiles, like drones.
    Particles? The Goa'uld bolts are notoriously slow. Kinetic guns? Only the Tau'ri use railguns. Missiles? The Tau'ri's missiles are pathetic in speed and capacity to reach a target on their own. Only Alteran drones rule supreme.
    The Goa'uld have nothing of that.
    Whatever the Goa'uld use, it's definitely not based on plasma. You have also failed to demonstrate that those bolts move below light speed. The plasma beam of the Asgard is truly slower, but I see no evidence of this for Goa'uld or Wraith weaponry.

    You're a physicist and an engineer and you tell me these bolts move at light speed?
    Who do you think you're kidding with that pretense exactly?
    Lol...do you know when we started theorizing about particle beam weapons? In 1957. The great problem with particle beam weaponry is that the particles need to be acclerated to speeds very close to the speed of light for them to do real damage. And the probelm that follows is that the amount of energy necessary for this is ginormous. Accelerating particles to speeds close to light outside a cyclotron is not possible with our current level of technology. Now, if an alien species uses particle beam weapons, then you can be sure the particles are moving at more than 99.99% of the speed of light. So my statement about particle beams travelling at light speed might not be exactly accurate, but it's still valid nothwithstanding.

    I wonder if I'd like to engage in semantics about what seeing means. Like if all we see is only photons.
    Yes, what we see are the photons emited by the beam. That is not an accurate way of evaluating the speed the beam is moving.

    For the love of Hoff, just watch a frakin' episode at least.
    No comments. You are now just being infantile...

    Would you rate that "star punch" by any chance?
    Wow, nice choice of terms. Why not? Whatever floats your boat. We have seen the shield of Atlantis powered by a single ZPM take the explosion of a gigaton+ nuke and nothing happened, so I assume that bringing down those shields by brute force will be quite hard indeed. I don't know if it would require the explosion of a supernova, but there is no question it will require gigantic quantities of power.

    Yes, this is more or less correct, though there's always people to remind us that the 200 megaton is, first, from an AU universe, even if every bit of tech seemed the same, and secondly, that we have no proof that it came from the cannons.
    However, we've never seen the Goa'uld hurl nukes.
    I don't need to see them taking actual nukes because I've seen their shields take the equivalent of 4 Tsar Bombas at once, and the shileds held. Again, it's not hard to deduce that the shields will withstand at least roughly the same amount of power from actual nuclear weapons.

    Priceless
    Lmao..no, your reading comprehension is indeed poor. Again, show me where I stated that it would require the explosion of a supernova to bring down the shields of a ha'tak. I'm still waiting.

    Oh yes, sorry. Excuse me. You were just pulling numbers out of your arse about asgard, ori and anubis' shields
    I never claimed that I was stating facts. You are either accusing me of this out of spite or because your reading comprehension sucks. If you read my posts, I filled my sentences with "I think", "I suppose" and "I assume". I am pulling numbers out of my ass, based on what I see onscreen, which is no worse than what you do ad nauseum. The only claim I made as fact is that ha'taks shields can take 200 megaton of raw power, which seems true based on what Samantha Carter stated. I assume that Asgard and Ori shields can take much higher levels of raw power because even the combined bombardment of several ha'taks couldn't bring those shields down.

    (which are still Goa'uld shields need I remind you).
    Redundant. After he upgraded his shields with ascended knowledge, they were no longer for any practical purposes Goa'uld shields, but something far more formidable.

    Supernova only capable of taking them down?
    You just have no clue what you're talking about
    Again, it is a speculation, and I never claimed it as fact, and you can't prove me wrong, now can you? Your speculations are no better than mine, and I will stick to my assesment that you require power above the gigaton range to bring down Ori and Asgard shields until you provide evidence that I am wrong. Since I never claimed to be stating a fact, but yet you deam my speculation to be wrong without a shadow of a doubt, then I expect you to provide evidence that I am wrong. Why? Because otherwise you are speculating that my speculation is wrong. The reason why I never stated as fact that the energy of a supernova would be needed to bring down Asgard or Ori shields by brute force is because I have no evidence for it, so I phrased it as speculation. However, since you are certain that I am wrong, then I assume you have evidence for it. The only way to prove something is with evidence. Good luck.

    No, they can only be taken down by energies worth of... anything that can destroy a galaxy. There.
    Fail again. I never said that the energy of supernovas are needed to bring down Asgard and Ori shields as a statement of fact. Therefore, I have no need to provide evidence for it. If you are stating as fact that the energy necessary to bring down those shields is the same as the necessary to destroy a galaxy, then I expect you to provide evidence for it. If you are speculating, then your guess is as agood as mine, although I find your estimate too high.

    Oh, I don't have evidence. *shame*
    Then you are speculating, which is exactly what I did. I don't need evidence to epeculate, but you certainly need evidence for the things you say, because you have a tendency to use a pseudo-authoritarian tone in your posts and say completely speculative things and pass them as statements of facts, like that thread of yours about the firepower of Wraith hives, which you passed on as fact while having no evidence for any of the claims you make.

    Did I claim that? Who has reading comprehension problems now?
    I want proof that Asgard ships, notably Biliskners, can one shot Ha'taks, pre-Anubis.
    Peter DeLuise once said that Asgard motherships can destroy ha'taks with one shot, so it is canon. My other reason for believing this, that the jaffas of Anubis were visibly terrified when Thor showed up to enforce the Interplanetary Protection treaty, is speculative and thus I will certainly not pass it as fact.

    I won't bother with counter evidence because there's no evidence to counter to boot.
    Learn the meaning of evidence first.
    No, here is where you get it wrong, sport. You need to counter-evidence what I said because you said that I am wrong, which is a statement of fact. I don't need to provide evidence that I am right because I never claimed the things I said were factual, but you certainly need to provide evidence proving that I am wrong since your claim that I am wrong is a statement of fact. It's not my fault that you are unable to understand this simple concept.
    Last edited by NoobTau'ri; June 21st, 2008 at 03:44 AM.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
    Well Mr. oragahn beat me to most of this but since you did address this to me I suppose I should have a word as well.



    I think you're getting to hung up on the fact that they call them "energy weapons" in the show. They're just generic glowing sci-fi "pew pew" guns like the ones in starwars or any number of other sci-fi shows. They all work the same way. Colourful glowing thing shoots out, hits something and blows it up.

    To put it another way, the glowing blobs of doom fired by ships in stargate resemble a lightspeed weapon about as much as Teal'c resembles a 110 pound Valley Girl. This isn't news to anybody, neither are the spitting distance ranges they have to fight at as a result.



    -As mentioned by Mr. O already, the Goa'uld buster didn't detonate as evidenced by the lack of a nuclear flash the same sort of EMP type effect occured when Carter energised a small amount of naquada in the SGC.

    -It's likely that the alien weapons do incorperate some sort of special shield damaging extra property but this isn't because the shields are to super duper powerful to be brought down otherwise. This idea was something that various people dreamed up as an attempt to explain why the weapons seem to have such a miserable sub kiloton DET content in so many scenes and yet they can still drop shields that are theoreticaly being powered by large naquada reactors and enduring things like the blue giant example.

    There's nothing however to suggest that a strike or strikes from large naquada boosted nuclear missiles, (provided they're finally fused properly) would be inherently ineffective against shielded ships. Especially when you take into account all the added perks of a vastly longer ranged fully guided weapon.
    Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, especially regarding the feasibility of using missiles in space against aliens armed with lasers or particle beam weaponry where the particles are moving at 99.99% of the speed of light.

  7. #87
    Second Lieutenant Andru10's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Just a few comments regarding what you said Noob Tau'ri:

    1) Plasma is an ionized gas... so yes, it is composed of ions.

    2) It's not really necessary to accelerate particles at 99.99% light speed in a particle weapon. Even Mach 3 is sufficient for close combat (between ships of course), it depends on the distance.

    3) I do not believe Goa'uld or Wraith weapons travel at light speed or even close to it. If that were the case after a ship fires, the target would feel the shot alomst instantly and this is not the case... we've seen that it takes some time for the shot to travel through space and reach the target (for Wraith weapons watch The Seige part III or Travelers). I believe that the Wraith and the Goa'uld use particle weapons. (or maybe some exotic form of energy that travels at a smaller speed than c ... it's not uncommon for SF shows to rewrite the laws of physics)

  8. #88
    Lieutenant Colonel Lt. Col. Mcoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    NoobTauri, Andru is exactly right. It you are a physicist, you should be ashamed. Also, most everything Ouroboros and Mr. Oragahn have said is also true. What you say has merit, but it simply doesn't hold up. What I mean is, it is a great explanation of how these weapons might work, but it is contradicted by the evidence. Much like evolution.

    And guys, this has also derailed the thread. this thread was created for people to post conjectures on the strength of weapons (and shields). Not to argue about composition. Please, if you can, raw data and calculations would be best to limit yourselves to.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Andru10 View Post
    Just a few comments regarding what you said Noob Tau'ri:
    1) Plasma is an ionized gas... so yes, it is composed of ions.
    No **** plasma is an ionized gas, but this does not make it analogous to ion cannons, which is what Oragahn was claiming. For all practical purposes, the ion cannons might be composed of pure stream of ionized particles that are not obtained through plasma state. Since the only mention we have of plasma being used in a beam weaponry is the Asgard weapon the Odyssey was retrofitted in " Unending", then we have no reason to believe that the weaponry of ha'taks are plsma beam weapons.

    2) It's not really necessary to accelerate particles at 99.99% light speed in a particle weapon. Even Mach 3 is sufficient for close combat (between ships of course), it depends on the distance.
    No, the amount of damage is roughly proportional to the acceleration of the particles, and it is extremely unlikely that you would use beams that travel at mach 3 against ships that can reach 100 times that speed in space. A beam with the particles accelrated at mach 3 would be a completel waste both because the damage caused would be minimal but also because you won't be able to hit your target.

    3) I do not believe Goa'uld or Wraith weapons travel at light speed or even close to it. If that were the case after a ship fires, the target would feel the shot alomst instantly and this is not the case...
    Well, it is the case. The Wraith fire reaches the shield almost instantly. Now, it may not be at the speed of light but the beams are definitely travelling faster than mach 3.

    we've seen that it takes some time for the shot to travel through space and reach the target (for Wraith weapons watch The Seige part III or Travelers)
    That is different. Those weapons were especifically designed to drain shields and they are much slower than regular energy weapons. The weapon the Wraith uses to drain Atlantis shield in " The Siege" is not the weapon they use against other vessels in space.

    I believe that the Wraith and the Goa'uld use particle weapons. (or maybe some exotic form of energy that travels at a smaller speed than c ... it's not uncommon for SF shows to rewrite the laws of physics)
    Very well. I never claimed to know what kind of weapon the Goa'uld use in their ha'taks, and I just mentioned that it has a power of roughly 200 megatons per shot. It is probably not a laser, but Oragahn supplied no evidence that it was a plasma beam wepon like he contended.

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Col. Mcoy View Post
    NoobTauri, Andru is exactly right. It you are a physicist, you should be ashamed.
    I am in tears right now because a bunch of laymen misenterpretated some things I wrote out of context and made enormous leaps in logic from some statements I made that were incomplete and data and concluded that
    I am full of ****.

    Also, most everything Ouroboros and Mr. Oragahn have said is also true.
    Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight and that is because...? No, dude, they are speculating and nothing more, which is exactly what I did. Saying that the weapons of ha'taks is some form of plasma beam weaponry like Oragahn said is just bull****, plain and simple. He might have some point regarding the Tollan's ions cannons, but even then the evidence is circumstantial and derivative and not an indication that weapon is ipso facto a plasma beam weapon.

    What you say has merit, but it simply doesn't hold up. What I mean is, it is a great explanation of how these weapons might work, but it is contradicted by the evidence.
    What evidence? How is my contention any more unlikely than Oragahn's? Please tell? His "evidence" for it being some exotic particle beam weapon is that the beam from ha'taks move slowly(disputable. Based on what? On visual assesment?), that the word "ion" in those Tollan ion cannons might refer to plasma(circumstantial and derivative data which does not prove his contention that weapon is a plsma beam weapon but merely indicates that it might be) for and as for statements regarding the ha'taks using plasma beam weaponry he has no evidence whatsoever. None. Zilch. Nada. So how is his guess better than mine?

    Much like evolution.
    So a guy who doesen't believe in evolution wants to lecture me on science? Nice.

    And guys, this has also derailed the thread. this thread was created for people to post conjectures on the strength of weapons (and shields). Not to argue about composition. Please, if you can, raw data and calculations would be best to limit yourselves to.
    Well, this is exactly what I did. I posted my opinions based on how strong those shields are based on what very little we know from canon - Sam Carter mentioning the yield of ha'tak shots, the shield of a ha'tak being able to resist the intense radiation and heat of the coronosphere of a star for hours and the fact that Atlantis shield took a 1+ gigaton explosion in point blank while powered by a single ZPM and resisted, etc -and then tried to derive by deduction to very rough estimates of how powerful Asgard, Ori and Ancient shields are and how much rough power you would need to bring them down(my guess : the most powerful shields would require the explosion of a supernova to be overcome) weapons might be. So you got what you asked, and now you are complaining about me giving you an answer. Lmao!
    Last edited by NoobTau'ri; June 21st, 2008 at 11:43 AM.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    noobtauri
    1. The nuke blown up over atlantis was more like a hiroshima sized weapon not gigaton. Remember it was made by a culture not far ahead of us in the 40s without the benefit of fermi, opponhiemer, etc.
    2. ions are either negative (anions) or positive (cations).
    3. What the heck kind of physisist wouldn't know these two things?
    Last edited by morrismike; June 21st, 2008 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #92
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    The nuke blown over Atlantis was from the 304's arsenal, and by looking at the size of the fireball and its duration, it would be around 5-12 megatons, easily.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
    Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, especially regarding the feasibility of using missiles in space against aliens armed with lasers or particle beam weaponry where the particles are moving at 99.99% of the speed of light.
    They don't seem to have those kinds of weapons though. If they did I'd agree with you. Single large missiles would have trouble hitting them effectively if they were protected by some sort of laser or particle beam defensive grid. A defensive grid like that would also double as defense against things like 302s, PJs or Alkesh/Gliders that tried to appraoch the ship. It would probably even work on drones. With defences like that you'd have to really saturate them with missiles and use things like stealth or jamming on the missiles to try and confuse the targeting systems on the target ship.

    This is the standard operating procedure for ship combat in the Andromeda universe actually. Lots of layered defensive countermeasures to shoot down missiles and lots of small eveasive missiles with jamming to try and sneak through those countermeasures.

    This isn't the case in gateverse though. anybody can watch the show and see tha the bolts don't move anywhere near lightspeed. I'm curious as to on what you're basing your ideas that they are infact lightspeed or near lightspeed weapons because it can't be the visuals on the show.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    For more meaningful content, notably yields, we should at least define the nature of weapons we'd like to study.
    While chemical missiles and nuclear ordinance, enhanced or not, can be properly gauged, it gets far more tricky with advanced weapons.

    That said, there are certain systems for which we can provide specs, without necessarily telling how much joules they pour into enemies' defenses.

    Two of these systems are the Lantian satellite beam, and the stargate's Asuran beam.

    The first was powered by a Nq generator Mk-I. I put specs for such generators there, and I consider them reliable.
    We have evidence of overloads in the kiloton range, and an absolute low end power of 23.3 gigawatts. This figure is based upon the premise that the Mark II lasted ten minutes.
    A higher end figure use the 20 kilotons figure for the overload, and assumes that this was obtained solely by charging the reactor with energy, all that within 30 seconds, as said by McKay. Which gives a power figure of 2.789 terawatts.

    It's actually likely that the low end is less reliable that the high end for a simple reason. A Mark I generator was used in the Ceberus, a small cargo ship racing for the Kon Garat Loop, in episode "Space Race".
    At some point, while the ship is flying extremely close to a yellow sun, the power circuit is burnt due to sabotage. Shields and other systems are down. The ship survives on armour only for several minutes.
    Then they reroute the naqahdah generator back into the ship's power grid, and the Tau'ri reactor is again operational, and provides power to the ship. This enables the crew to raise shields and put other systems back online.
    Simply put, the amount of power which would be needed to protect a ship that close to a sun would require power outputs in the terawatts, even if some capacitors were precharged and even if another power source was associated to this one. A smaller power output wouldn't have made much of a difference against the one already present onboard the Ceberus.

    Anyway, even with a charge of a few minutes, the Lantian beam weapon could have not been pouring more than kilotons of energy into that beam. Yet, said beam had enough juice to slice three hiveships, and by the damage it caused to just one, literally going through the armour like a hot knife through butter, we're looking with an advanced beam system which gets more results against solid matter than the energy it uses.
    That's like a zat beam, if you like. It "eats" matter rather easily, much like squid drones can in fact.

    The Asuran beam is particular. While barely scratching an asteroid which was, say, 80 meters large, and lightly damaging a fragile tower with a grazing shot, it could drain a nearly full ZPM within 29 hours, by hitting the shield tapping into said ZPM (which contrats with other shields systems which seem to run on capacitors and can't be recharged as long as they are used, ref: Ha'taks, Prometheus).
    Considering the planet busting abilities of a ZPM (at least, Zero Hour's final verdict pointed to supernova levels of total energy production), we're looking at a beam which has a very low direct energy transfer capacity, yet is powered by one or more ZPMs, and can drain one in a bit more than one day.
    I believe that this device was very specific to Lantian shields, as the Apollo's shields didn't seem to suffer that much when hit by the beam for around a second.

    Gatebusters have low end theoretical yields of 812 gigatons, but visuals point to yields in the one digit teraton range.

    The ones which are worth an observation are the Al'keshes.
    I think that concerning Goa'uld weapons, ce could indeed pretend that they're able to wear out shields by having said shields suck out more energy from their associated power sources.

    However, I'd like to suggest that Goa'uld wouldn't allow their Jaffa to pilot Al'keshes with the ability to shoot megaton shots at their enemy. Therefore, Al'keshes, and even maybe Death Gliders, would be equipped with those funky plasma weapons which can drain shields as well.
    So would Ha'taks, but with the crucial difference that a Ha'tak's weapons could be modulated to make bolts contain more raw energy if necessary, to reach, at least, the hundreds of megatons yields, like 200 MT. So Ha'taks would fire shield draining bolts at other ships, but could burn a whole world by making shifting their weapons to a "rawer" mode, more primitive.
    This may tie all loose ends regarding Goa'uld heavy weapons.

    Besides, Ha'tak's bolts have a significant punching ability. Remember the death of Horus. His ships was literaly kicked backwards as it was hit by the fire from Apophis' supership.
    Or remember the bolts fired by Ba'al's ships, above Kelowna, which punched through Anubis' ship.

    On that note, I believe that Anubis' ship was of a weaker structural design. See, it's very possible that contrary to Ha'taks which rely on sheer material strenght to remain particularily tough, I suppose that Anubis had a ship a bit too identical to Atlantis, in that it was fragile. I think his ship may have structural integrity fields, to reinforce the structure of his ship, but those fields weren't powered anymore after Fallen, when the internal core blew up.
    Yes, it's good to remember that this ship did loose her own main core at that point, as it literally blew up inside. There's no doubt about the new fragility plaguing Anubis' ship by the time he voyaged to Langara.

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Ouroboros View Post
    This isn't the case in gateverse though. anybody can watch the show and see tha the bolts don't move anywhere near lightspeed. I'm curious as to on what you're basing your ideas that they are infact lightspeed or near lightspeed weapons because it can't be the visuals on the show.
    Maybe he's watching DVDs on superfast play?

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Oh, and Felger confirms in 'Avenger 2.0' that the Goa'uld weapons fire packets of plasma. I believe he even references ions.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    Quote Originally Posted by Lt. Col. Mcoy View Post
    Oh, and Felger confirms in 'Avenger 2.0' that the Goa'uld weapons fire packets of plasma. I believe he even references ions.
    Thank you !

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    my estimates

    Goa'uld capital weapon: 200 megaton
    Asgard capital weapon: 500 megaton (it might be a special shield penetrating design, it used several shots in New Order to kill a Replicator ship)
    Ancients drones: depending on the amount of energy available (it draws energy from a powersource, if the source goes offline the drones go too(The Tower))
    Traveler energy weapon: 200+ megaton
    Wraith energy weapon: 1 gigaton (the strongest attack)
    Ori pulses: 500 megaton
    Ori main weapon: several gigatons
    Asgard Plasma beam: several plasma beams (but maybe weaker than the Ori weapon only more effective on shield penetrating)

  19. #99

    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    The Asgard weapon is probably weaker than the Ori one, but may have better shield pentrating properties. Still it can take out most ships with 2 hit combos as needed. Where the Ori beam does it in 1 shot. Say only 1/2 power then, but more beams per ship vs. 1 beam for Ori ship.

    It is difficult to class Ori or Asgard energy weapons, they are very powerful. I doubt the Wraith ones are more powerful.

    The Asgard build the O'Neill to be a warship, so its energy weapons are top level. The Ori followers use knowledge of Ascended to build their ships, their energy weapons are obviously at the top.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Weapon Strengths

    MR O
    When a reactor or nuclear device is building towards detonation it is going from subcritical (generation time 100 milliseconds) to "prompt" critical (for U235 the generation time would be 10 to 26 microsecond - naquada would be similiar). The portrayal on the show is false so that a person having never taken a nuclear physics class can understand what is happening. The boom occurs over the period of a few microseconds and the the peak power prior (more than a few seconds) to the boom would be miniscule. Those mkI generators that you see might, and I stress might generate a few megawatts of usable power - that's it. If the power output ever exceeded 150% of whatever the true max would be it would be damaged (electrically and/or thermally). If the power exceeded 200% for more than a second or two it would probably break it. When they overload this reactor you basically get a big suitcase or battlefield artillary nuke.

    at time = 0s reaction rate is at minimum lets say 5 watts
    at time = 26microsec reaction rate is double lets say 10 watts
    at time = 52microsec reaction rate is at quadrupel lets say 20 watts
    at time = 78 microseconds reaction rate is at 10x lets say 40 watts
    at time = 104 microseconds reaction rate is at 20x lets say 100 watts
    you see where this is going

    What will happen is the power will buildup faster than the mechanism can absorb heat and melt. If the mechanism breaks down you get a fizzle (maybe a 1000 pound bomb worth). If the mechanisms remains intact long enough the prompt critical reaction will result in a lot of power over a few seconds.

    Unlike the other guy, I actually am a mechanical engineer who took nuclear physics when I was in the navy (I currently work at a nuclear plant).

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