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  1. #21
    Lieutenant Colonel AvatarIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    i think it means that you don't know anything unless you've experimented with it, therefore if you immediately know what something is then you must have already used that knowledge before,
    "If you immediatley know the candle light is fire then the meal was cooked along time ago"
    is basically
    "if you immediately recognise candle light as fire, you must have seen fire before"
    or as a metaphor for
    "if you know what ascension is you must have ascended before"
    also could be worded as
    "you can't know what ascension is until you have done it"
    Last edited by AvatarIII; May 8th, 2008 at 02:21 AM.
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  2. #22
    First Lieutenant Zatnikitelman's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarIII View Post
    i think it means that you don't know anything unless you've experimented with it, therefore if you immediately know what something is then you must have already used that knowledge before,
    "If you immediatley know the candle light is fire then the meal was cooked along time ago"
    is basically
    "if you immediately recognise candle light as fire, you must have seen fire before"
    or as a metaphor for
    "if you know what ascension is you must have ascended before"
    also could be worded as
    "you can't know what ascension is until you have done it"
    Darn, you beat me to it. I saw Avalon again tonight and came to the same conclusion. But of course, if it truly did relate to a Buddhist story about searching for fire with candle light, then the least I can do is relate our conclusion to that.
    Basically, the guy searching for fire either had no knowledge, or forgot that the candlelight was fire so instead of knowing what it was and immediately recognizing what it could be used for, he was unenlightened enough to not use it.
    When the time comes to utilize Earth's best weaponry against an ailen threat. The weapon that will ultimately prove to be Earth's best will be the Zatnikitel
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  3. #23
    Chief Master Sergeant GateDragon's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    If you immediately know blow out the candle the dinner went cold a long time ago

  4. #24
    Lieutenant Colonel ParadoxRealities's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raddo View Post
    "If you immediatley know the candle light is fire then the meal was cooked along time ago"

    Okkkkkkkkkkkk

    I have thought about this over and over and although I do have a few theories about what Oma Desala meant by this i'm not totally convincing myself.

    Does anyone else have any thoughts on what Oma meant by this or what she was trying to get Daniel to think about when she said this?

    Mechanisms cannot be apparent until their effects are. This may seem odd, but consider that, even if you knew a candle's light was fire, you would not know what fire was without seeing it cook something (or burn, etc).

    "Out of the Abyss" (SJ Angst)....................Best New Author.................."Else Close the Wall Up" (Sam)
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  5. #25
    Lieutenant Colonel captain jake's Avatar
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    Arrow2 Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    My theory is that it doesn't mean any one thing, it is a statement that puts the mind into a state of openness. Oma would say it in order to open the mind of the one she is trying to help ascend. That is why RepliCarter couldn't figure it out, it isn't a puzzle it's a tool.

  6. #26
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raddo View Post

    Does anyone else have any thoughts on what Oma meant by this or what she was trying to get Daniel to think about when she said this?

    It doesen't mean anything. It is complete crap. Even though I'm an atheist, I am a student of Oriental esoteric teachings - in a dry scholarly way -, and that sentence is not even something an avatar would say, or a religious leader. It is just meaningless semantic babbling with no meaning whatsoever, and the reason why the writers put it there is just because it sounds so convoluted that it would probably make the fans think it is some jewel of wisdom so profound that only an ascended(superior) being could understand it. The end.

  7. #27
    Lieutenant Colonel AvatarIII's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by NoobTau'ri View Post
    It doesen't mean anything. It is complete crap. Even though I'm an atheist, I am a student of Oriental esoteric teachings - in a dry scholarly way -, and that sentence is not even something an avatar would say, or a religious leader. It is just meaningless semantic babbling with no meaning whatsoever, and the reason why the writers put it there is just because it sounds so convoluted that it would probably make the fans think it is some jewel of wisdom so profound that only an ascended(superior) being could understand it. The end.
    perhaps it was an experiment by the writer, in finding meaning within nonsense?
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  8. #28
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    Earth Symbol Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    The whole ascension process seems to be esoteric and Asian... tantamount to Enlightenment or even Transubstantiation. But in my opinion, if we consider what the Ascended once were and look at some of the big thinkers in modern times, then we get an even more interesting interpretation of the aphorism.

    Consider the Ancients: human, but more than human. Knowledge, experience, technology... and ethics to boot, all more seemingly human than humans themselves are.

    Consider the Ascended: such paragons of human quality that they really aren't human anymore.

    "If you immediately know the candle light is fire" implies you could.. or could not. The candle could be understood, or a mystery. This is classic Heidegger, considered one of the biggest and most meaningful existentialists in modern times... if not one of the most difficult to read...

    Under Heidegger's theory, a tool can be present-to-hand, or not quite understood and thus something we FOCUS on and try to figure out. It can also be ready-to-hand, or understood and useful.. something we don't even THINK about, we just use it. Consider how we've seen different technologies that, in some hands, are used as easily as we humans would use a hammer. The stargate itself, for instance, started as a mystery: it was present-to-hand, and had to be figured out. So, if you realize the candle light is fire, you understand the candle so well that its already part of you. If you understand ascension well enough, it doesn't require thought.

    Heidegger's concept of Dasein is a little more lofty and easily chocked up to the trend for philosophic writings to be obscure in order to appear complicated to the layman, and, thus, as serious as science would be. In Stargate, ascension is certainly no less mysterious to us than Ori technology was, but for the latter, Dr. Carter can adorn complications on it... the former, we're left with the strange words of Oma and the other Ascended.

    Anyway, Dasein is concerned with "being human" versus "human being," an individual versus an ideal. The ascended move beyond the physical and enter a self-awareness that even Dr. Jackson did not immediately have. I can't really give any accurate paraphrasing beyond that, but suffice it to say the Ascended as they exist fit very neatly into Heidegger's ideology.

    This brings us to the second half of the quote: "Then the meal was already cooked a long time ago." What does this mean?

    One option is that the meal is spoiled. That, if the experience is already experienced, the journey is no longer an exploration. This could be a gentle admonishment for us to not rush consideration of the mysteries, a reminder to respect mysteries of mind and being as much as Stargate does technology and science, or other such thing. In other words: "this is not a light-switch, but it is a yes/no situation."

    The other is a more trendy, Vajrayana buddhist type appeal. The phrase becomes a koan, a call to realize that perhaps you are ALREADY ascended, that the meal was already cooked if you already knew the light was fire. Ascending becomes a lightning bolt of existence, a transformation that divides one's life into two categories: before... and after.

    Another interpretation comes from considering why a meal would be cooked in the first place. A meal is cooked in order to be eaten. It is sustenance, a process of living, perhaps even, if taken existentially. If the meal was cooked a long time ago... we should hurry up and eat it before it goes bad! Not to think just for the sake of thought... to cook just for the sake of cooking... but to give direction. In this sense, the phrase is a focus and gives direction. Its not a lightning bolt, and its not a warning... it is a reminder, and a guide, and seems to be more in-line with the other ways the Ascended involved themselves with the corporeal. It doesn't say what do to or how to do it... but why to do it and when you know you're finished.

    Just my two cents. Read too much, and you tend to wind up writing too much, too.

  9. #29

    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    People this is what it means-

    Some things require a process in order to reach the end. You cannot skip ahead or attain the end without going through that process.

    If you immediately know the candle light is fire is referencing your current position at the end of that process, the culmination.

    ...then the meal was cooked a long time ago. Means that you must have already gone through the process if you are currently at the end of the sequence.

    Take learning a new skill. It takes time to learn, and is a step by step process. If someone comes up and says they got it in just thirty seconds of trying, then you know they're lying. Either they don't get it, or they went through the learning process prior to now and are only pretending to 'get it' immediately.

    If you're counting to 10,000 and you say you're on 9,900 then that means you started at 1 and went through all the other numbers up to 9,900. Whereas some smart nosed brat will just say, 1, 2, 3,... 10,000.

    You can't skip to the end. That's what the quote means.

  10. #30
    Colonel Admiral Mappalazarou's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    But I don't think the candlelight is fire. I think it's electronic.

    1+ to the Cantina. *flees thread*
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  11. #31

    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    The most obvious things are the hardest to see.

  12. #32
    Staff Sergeant deadegg's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    I always looked at it as a way of saying "dont make assumptions". You know the old saying that to assume is to make an "ass of u and me".. The whole candle light saying is just a sugar coat. lol
    A serpent guard, a Horus guard and a Setesh guard meet on a neutral planet. It is a tense moment. The serpent guard's eyes glow. The Horus guard's beak glistens. The Setesh guard 's nose drips.

  13. #33
    Major General LtColCarter's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by deadegg View Post
    I always looked at it as a way of saying "dont make assumptions". You know the old saying that to assume is to make an "ass of u and me".. The whole candle light saying is just a sugar coat. lol
    Very preceptive! I agree!

  14. #34
    Major General
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    It's just their take on an old proverb about a fool who looked for fire by candlelight, I thought we'd established that ages go

  15. #35
    Major General LtColCarter's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    It's just their take on an old proverb about a fool who looked for fire by candlelight, I thought we'd established that ages go
    It was possibly established long ago...but I didn't see it!

  16. #36
    Colonel Alteran of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    It's really a hard riddle. It might mean something, or it could be totally random. I can't really find one particular meaning to it, it could be interprited dozens of ways. But it's meant to open your mind, like Oma said, and even though this is real life it still makes you think.

  17. #37
    Captain starshineRoxie's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    I've thought about this for years now and have come to a conclusion,

    Spoiler:
    I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS!
    Last edited by starshineRoxie; May 18th, 2009 at 06:16 PM.
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  18. #38
    Colonel Alteran of Atlantis's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by starshineRoxie View Post
    I've thought about this for years now and have to a conclusion,

    Spoiler:
    I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS!
    Don't worry, the rest of us are equally clueless.

  19. #39
    Second Lieutenant GuHNDoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    Others have said it before, it is a proverb, albeit the wording different, but the purpouse is to open ones mind. Get the person into a state of contemplation, upon reality and the universe.

    It has not the same meaning for everyone, each individual's journey is different to the others. It is a means to an end, but once the end is reached, it has only just begun.

    Spirituality, I Love It! Stargate incorporates it very well!

    Everyone is a spiritual being, regardless of what they think. You are what you are, or, You is what you is.

    Everything is, and is valid!
    Last edited by GuHNDoi; May 25th, 2009 at 08:23 PM. Reason: It is what it is!
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  20. #40
    Major tombombadil's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you immediatley know the candle light is fire....

    it means that one can see something(in this case a candle) and from it, deduce previous actions(such as cooking a meal). the literal meaning, you use fire to cook meals, when you see that the only fire around is a candle, being used for lighting, you know that it's probably past the time of cooking meals.
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