A Song of Ice and Fire appreciation/discussion thread!

[Gigajules]

Ooh, I didn't see this thread hiding in here, lol. I finished the fourth book a couple months ago and went right back to the first one to start reading again. It's amazing how much you can miss the first time around. I love the subtlety of GRRM's writing, and the fact that you can read a scene and not always realize every bit of what was actually going on until later. I don't even want to think about what it would be like to keep all of it straight. *brainsplosion*

My favorite character/POV is Jaime. He's definitely the most complicated character in the series, and a great example of how seeing things from a different point of view can make a huge difference. I love his sense of humor. And Tyrion's. Not sure what that says about me, lol.

[Trek_Girl42]

Ooh, I didn't see this thread hiding in here, lol. I finished the fourth book a couple months ago and went right back to the first one to start reading again. It's amazing how much you can miss the first time around. I love the subtlety of GRRM's writing, and the fact that you can read a scene and not always realize every bit of what was actually going on until later. I don't even want to think about what it would be like to keep all of it straight. *brainsplosion*

My favorite character/POV is Jaime. He's definitely the most complicated character in the series, and a great example of how seeing things from a different point of view can make a huge difference. I love his sense of humor. And Tyrion's. Not sure what that says about me, lol.

Yeah- I'm doing the same thing, I'm going back and re-reading the series very slowly (we've got about six months at least til the next comes out )- I'm about 120 pgs in A Game of Thrones, and already just picking up on the subtle things- appearances of characters that come back later, etc. It's remarkably complex. I just completely missed the whole (seemingly throwaway) mention of

Spoiler:

Ser Jorah

by Robert the first time I read the series, so his true identity came as a shock later on in whichever book that was. But sure enough, early on a single sentence reference to who he was. These books are just so incredibly rich that they can do that- I think the more times they're read, the more you get out of it, they just don't diminish, and I could probably count on one hand the number of books I've read that do that.

[Lady Snow]

Yes! I adore this series and have gotten several friends (and my sister, who, depending on the day of the week, may or may not qualify as "friend"...) irrevocably hooked. They're on my To-Reread list for the summer.

I'm not-so-secretly in love with Jon Snow. And, surprisingly enough, Littlefinger, even though he's a creep and a pervert. And Tyrion, to some extent. And Jamie. And... everyone.

And, I'm sorry, Oranos, but I think ASoIaF is quite a bit better than WoT (and yes, I've read all of both more than once ). I think I believe in GRRM's characters more than I do in Jordan's; Rand always seemed like a massive tool, even when he was doing well, and the skirt-adjusting sometimes got out of hand. It's a good series, but it's so frakking long that it dragged at times, which definitely turned me off for a while. GRRM, though, made a believer out of me with end of the first book and the end of the third book, painful though they were to read - I don't think I ever got misty-eyed at WoT, but I darn near cried a couple times in ASoIaF.

Spoiler:

Red Wedding = awful. Death of Ned > Red Wedding.

I know we've all got craploads of questions to be answered, but my biggest one is... where the frak is Rickon?!

[Arative]

I thought a Feast for Crows kind of dragged on but mostly because I didn't like most of the point of views in the book. Looking forward to the next one.

I read somewhere that originally, GRRM had intended to skip ahead a number of years, so the kids would become young adults. Not sure if that would have been a good thing or not.

[Trek_Girl42]

Yes! I adore this series and have gotten several friends (and my sister, who, depending on the day of the week, may or may not qualify as "friend"...) irrevocably hooked. They're on my To-Reread list for the summer.

I'm not-so-secretly in love with Jon Snow. And, surprisingly enough, Littlefinger, even though he's a creep and a pervert. And Tyrion, to some extent. And Jamie. And... everyone.

And, I'm sorry, Oranos, but I think ASoIaF is quite a bit better than WoT (and yes, I've read all of both more than once ). I think I believe in GRRM's characters more than I do in Jordan's; Rand always seemed like a massive tool, even when he was doing well, and the skirt-adjusting sometimes got out of hand. It's a good series, but it's so frakking long that it dragged at times, which definitely turned me off for a while. GRRM, though, made a believer out of me with end of the first book and the end of the third book, painful though they were to read - I don't think I ever got misty-eyed at WoT, but I darn near cried a couple times in ASoIaF.

Spoiler:

Red Wedding = awful. Death of Ned > Red Wedding.

I know we've all got craploads of questions to be answered, but my biggest one is... where the frak is Rickon?!

The questions, the questions.....I love the fact that with Jamie

Spoiler:

he is so frakking despicable. Until a Storm of Swords and his POV and suddenly I like him! And I do think he is one of the few darker characters who can still attain redemption.

But I think my absolute favourite thing- the bit that sold me on the series (I liked it before this, but it wasn't truly in a a league of it's own among everything I've read until this event), was when

Spoiler:

at the end of AGoT Ned died. I was floored, it brought a tear or two, but it was the fact that Ned had been presented as the main protagonist of the series. And GRRM killed him in the first book- which just completely changed the perspective. Brilliant.

I'm sure that there are other writers have done that before, but I've never read them.

[Oranos]

And, I'm sorry, Oranos, but I think ASoIaF is quite a bit better than WoT (and yes, I've read all of both more than once ).

What on Earth are you apologizing for? Everyone has different tastes. I wouldn't hesitate to admit that Martin's series isn't even on my top 5 list, probably somewhere in between 5 and 10.

I think I believe in GRRM's characters more than I do in Jordan's; Rand always seemed like a massive tool, even when he was doing well, and the skirt-adjusting sometimes got out of hand.

I think both authors did fine with their characters, though I think I'd give Jordan the edge simply because I like Mazrim Taim so much. And I'm not completely sure why.

It's a good series, but it's so frakking long that it dragged at times, which definitely turned me off for a while.

I think most of the people who believe it drags felt so for one of two reasons: Jordan describes everything very, very intricately -- much more so than Martin, from what I can tell of his first book. Two, Jordan doesn't really rely on huge battles to captivate, instead relying on other pieces to do so. The earlier books covered longer periods of time (years, I believe), so he could pick and choose more so, while the later books would cover a month or two, instead.

I think my biggest problem with Martin is his style of writing. It's something I'm very picky with -- what I'm most critical of. Probably why my book collection isn't bigger. I'm very selective of what I choose because of that.

GRRM, though, made a believer out of me with end of the first book and the end of the third book, painful though they were to read - I don't think I ever got misty-eyed at WoT, but I darn near cried a couple times in ASoIaF.

As good as "A Game of Thrones" is, the book never really hooked me the way "The Eye of the World" did. It's not easy to get an emotional response out of me in television or reading. So far, Martin hasn't really done that. Jordan in the first 200 pages of his first book had two scenes that give me shivers: the prologue and Moiraine's speech on Manetheren.

All that said, from what I've read of Martin's series, he has something special going (I can't judge beyond the 3/4 or so I've read of the 1st book). Jordan too, has a special series. And both are very good authors. That cannot be denied.

[Gigajules]

Two, Jordan doesn't really rely on huge battles to captivate, instead relying on other pieces to do so.

Martin doesn't either. (Unless the reader happens to be one who is only captivated by huge battles, I guess.) The fact that there's a war going on through most of the big picture is something that drives a hundred other smaller stories the events of which mean something different for each character, both on an intimate level and in the larger scope of things.

A good part of the draw - for me, at least - is that it is not a happy shiny world where you're sure everything will be all right in the end because the good guys always win. In fact, the good guys usually get completely screwed in horrible ways. I'm not evil or anything (that's my story and I'm sticking to it), I just dig the realism.

There's the brilliant use of POV, too. Even if you don't agree with or like a particular character, you can see where they're coming from (and often whether or not they're completely bat$#!t crazy, as is often the case). I think Jaime's definitely the best example of how knowing what goes on inside a person's head can make you view them in an utterly different light. (And Cersei's probably the best example of how it doesn't, lol.)

In any case, it's a lot more complicated than huge battles.

[Trek_Girl42]

Martin doesn't either. (Unless the reader happens to be one who is only captivated by huge battles, I guess.) The fact that there's a war going on through most of the big picture is something that drives a hundred other smaller stories the events of which mean something different for each character, both on an intimate level and in the larger scope of things.

A good part of the draw - for me, at least - is that it is not a happy shiny world where you're sure everything will be all right in the end because the good guys always win. In fact, the good guys usually get completely screwed in horrible ways. I'm not evil or anything (that's my story and I'm sticking to it), I just dig the realism.

That's the great thing- whatever happens in the end, some character that you love will get screwed over. If they even live to the end. There are very few, if any, characters that are "safe". We don't even know who's the most essential piece to the narrative! (though I'm sure many readers will argue for different characters, alas, my favourite character is not likely to live out the series )

There's the brilliant use of POV, too. Even if you don't agree with or like a particular character, you can see where they're coming from (and often whether or not they're completely bat$#!t crazy, as is often the case). I think Jaime's definitely the best example of how knowing what goes on inside a person's head can make you view them in an utterly different light. (And Cersei's probably the best example of how it doesn't, lol.)

In any case, it's a lot more complicated than huge battles.

Good lord yes. If I despised her before her POV, after we saw her POV that turned to absolute vicious hatred, I mean really. Absolutely horrendous human being. If she even deserves to be called that.

Jamie on the other hand, who was my least favourite character before (the golden haired bad boy, who kills his king and throws a boy out a window to protect his secret incest? ), becomes one of my favourites after his POV. Very sympathetic, and possibly redeemable. Unfortunately it sounds like his POV won't be in ADWD (or at least until the end half- as I understood it, most of the next book will cover the characters missing from AFfC, but towards the end the timelines will meet up so we'll see some resolution to AFfC cliffhangers?), and we'll have to wait until the next book.

I find that I liked AFfC probably more than the average reader because my favourite POVs are split down the middle between this "two-parter" (though I hate to wait what will probably be another three years before I get my favourite character back!) of AFfC and ADWD. The only thing (and I think this is what most people didn't like about the book and I absolutely agree) that makes the book a bit weaker than the others is the Iron Island chapters- those POVs were hard to follow and I kept getting the characters mixed up (using the nicknames rather than their proper names for the POV titles was a mistake) to the point of writing a chart for myself. I suspect this must have come as a result from having to split the original big book into two, because the rest of GRRM's characters and writing is superb, it's just those chapters that don't feel quite like they ever developed enough which makes them hard to read. He must have had to do a lot of re-tooling trying to make sure what went in to the book fit together, that this whole new group of POVs probably didn't get as much attention as they should have in re-writes.

[Oranos]

Martin doesn't either. (Unless the reader happens to be one who is only captivated by huge battles, I guess.) The fact that there's a war going on through most of the big picture is something that drives a hundred other smaller stories the events of which mean something different for each character, both on an intimate level and in the larger scope of things.

From what I've read thus far, I realize that. But it's a combination of the above mentioned factors for Jordan (and more that I could go into, but won't). For some readers, that's tedious; I think this is part of why some readers don't appreciate Jordan. Or so it seems. Martin isn't close to Jordan's level of detail.

A good part of the draw - for me, at least - is that it is not a happy shiny world where you're sure everything will be all right in the end because the good guys always win. In fact, the good guys usually get completely screwed in horrible ways. I'm not evil or anything (that's my story and I'm sticking to it), I just dig the realism.

I agree, in part. I like to see the bad guys as top dog, but there needs to be that sliver of hope, something that gives the good guys a remote chance. When authors take that to extremes, that too can be a bit tedious. And ridiculous. I think there needs to be a balance; you can't lean too much in one direction.

In any case, it's a lot more complicated than huge battles.

Indeed. In fact, most of my favorite series/books don't have some huge battle. There's more important things.

[Oranos]

That's the great thing- whatever happens in the end, some character that you love will get screwed over. If they even live to the end.
There are very few, if any, characters that are "safe". We don't even know who's the most essential piece to the narrative! (though I'm sure many readers will argue for different characters, alas, my favourite character is not likely to live out the series )

See? You've come to expect death too much.

[Trek_Girl42]

See? You've come to expect death too much.

You've barely started the series. You'll come to expect it too.

[Lady Snow]

I'm currently working my way through these, which are quite funny.

[Trek_Girl42]

I'm currently working my way through these, which are quite funny.

Wow. This looks great thanks for the link!

[GateofDOOM]

I'm not-so-secretly in love with Jon Snow. And, surprisingly enough, Littlefinger, even though he's a creep and a pervert. And Tyrion, to some extent. And Jamie. And... everyone.

Truly we think alike!
When I was reading these I always checked ahead to see the next time Jon, or Jaime would have a chapter. I also checked ahead for Bran's chapters.

I'm gonna have to add my vote of ASoIaF being better than WoT. I felt that Eye of the World was basically a re-write of Sword of Shannara and although I enjoyed the first five books (particularly three!) I kind of fell of for me after that (The Crossroads one was absolutely terrible IMO) and I don't think I'll bother to finish. (Yeah I know it's just one more book. I'm lazy, shoot me).

Spoiler:

Besides my favourite character died in five ( )and Rand got annoying, even though I knew it was pretty realistic; the arrogance and what have you. So...yeah

I do intend to finish ASoIaF, eventually, but I'm not going to bother until he's done writing. (What can I say? Cliffhangers kill me, I can't wait any longer!). I haven't even read the fourth one...A feast for Crows?

...I guess Harry Potter put me off waiting for sequels. It was half my life!

[Lady Snow]

I'm not entirely sure if this is allowed here, but I've got a pimp for anyone who's got an LJ (or would be interested in getting one to discuss ASoIaF... ):

There are a bunch of communities on LJ for people who want to discuss and stay up-to-date on ASoIaF, but there's been a recent push to have a more interactive part of the fandom, much like how the HP fandom (almost literally) exploded. TO that end, westerosorting was created, sorting people into one of seven Great Houses (Greyjoy, Lannister, Martell, Stark, Targaryen, Tully, Tyrell), and setting up various sub-communities for families and tournaments and discussion and just all-around ASoIaF love.

And, well, for the sake of honesty, the first tourney challenge was to recruit more people. So if you do head over there and decide to participate, do mention that ender839 of House Tully sent you.

(Seriously, if this isn't kosher, I'll be happy to delete it. I thought that there might be people around here who weren't aware of such an awesome opportunity to squee and be part of another fandom.)