Forest of the Dead (3009/409)

[LiliJ]

Oh wow! How great was that episode!

So who do you guys think River Song is?

[pbellosom]

I did like how River's voice over started, making it seem like it would end with the screwdriver on the book, and then the Doctor ran back and there was an entire new sequence. =D

I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

also, did he really leave a book containing detailed information on his future just lieing around for anyone to find it? That seems really really stupid of him given the amount of enemies he has.

[LiliJ]

I don't think it has to do with marriage, that seems a little too... simple, somehow. Too easy. I thought it might have to do with childbirth, but that's a bit much, especially coming on the heels of the whole Jenny thing.

Maybe it's a last regeneration thing. That could be kind of interesting. Might be worth someone starting a thread to theorize about it. Er... if there isn't one already.

From what he said about "there's only one time I could [tell you my name]" I got that they went to the time war... Maybe that's going to be the grand finale of the entire series? (Not this one, I mean the ending of ALL Dr Who series.)

[LiliJ]

My understanding was that he was leaving the Library to the Vashta Nerada. Get all the people out and let them "graze there" forever. There was no mention of moving them - he just got a day to get the people out.

Yeesh that's creepy! And a bit out of character for the Doctor... I was a little confused as to what he did with the Shadows too. Hmph! I don't like being confused!

[LiliJ]

I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

also, did he really leave a book containing detailed information on his future just lieing around for anyone to find it? That seems really really stupid of him given the amount of enemies he has.

Sometime in the future he must have gone back in time to just before she died (or just after) and taken away the nureol relay thing to put in the screwdriver.

[Mr Prophet]

I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

also, did he really leave a book containing detailed information on his future just lieing around for anyone to find it? That seems really really stupid of him given the amount of enemies he has.

I presumed that was a different chip; a better one which, being linked to the screwdriver, held her entire mental print, rather than just a ghost, for a good long time. There were clearly plenty of the chips and it woudl be easy enough for the Doctor to get hold of one. He couldn't have gone back for the one in his suit, because he was already there.

The book is not just spoilers, it's also a hazard to the Web of Time. If he had the information, he couldn't use it for fear of the damage he might cause (as in Father's Day), so knowing it would be pure torture to him.

There was nothing he could do to move the Vashta Nerada - like he said, with the Vashta Nerada you just run - so he made a deal to stop the destruct sequence and save the planet; in exchange he had a day to take all of the people away, before the Vashta Nerada started feeding again. He'd already told Lux that when they left he needed to put a quarantine on the Library for ever and ever.

[huntress]

I am so tired today but i slept well and enough. Dunno why but it is annoying :yawn: Need to more tea I think.

Anyway, I wanted to write down my thoughts on "Forest of the Dead" which I just loved, loved, loved. Stephen Moffat is simply a wonderful writer though he seems to have two tendencies:

1. Leave the doctor broken hearted (The Girl in the Fireplace , Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead)
2. Create fascinating and loveable new characters that make the short-list of future companions (Madame de Pompadour, Sally Sparrow, River Song)

I was happy to see that I was basically right with all my assumptions. The world of the girl was virtual and that saved literally meant saved to the main computer system. Maybe it was obvious but at least for me it was a satisfying "told ya!" moment. I was also sort of right with my assumption that the little girl must be the main program, the only thing I couldn't have guessed is that she is actually a little girl for real. That bit reminded me a bit of THE OTHER from "Otherworld" except that THE OTHER had lost all humanity and was not there out of his own free will.

The idea that the Vashta Nerada were actually created on that world and that they hatched from all the books was brilliant. It made the title even more fascinating. The huge library = the forest of dead trees, turned into pulp and then books.

I had hoped for a clear answer who River Song was but unfortunately we didn't get one. Just tantalizing bits and pieces. I don't think that River was married to the doctor and if she had been, then it was the weirdest marriage ever. The doctor turning up whenever he wants to or when she calls him but everything she said made me wonder. She knew his name. The name we even do not know and it seems to be very, very special. I wonder on what very special occasion that name is uttered. Maybe childbirth but that seems so far fetched. Can anybody think of an occasion when the doctor would give away his real name other then marriage and childbirth because I can't think of any. It certainly has nothing to do with sex I think, because I do believe that the doctor gets some, sometimes ;-) River was a wonderful character and IMHO whoever will be in charge of the doctor in the future is now forced to bring the storyline back though I doubt that Alex Kingston will play River again. I think it would be a wonderful storyline for the last doctor aka doctor number 13. Since we all love the doctor too much and the Beep has no interest in killing off a character that has been on air for fifty years I doubt, that the end will come any time soon. I think fanfic authors are called to action here to spin the story of the 13th doctor and River Song. I felt so sorry for Donna. The virtual reality life showed that, despite her constant assurances that she wants to travel with the doctor forever, all she truly craves is a normal life with kids and a loving husband. I do hope that Donna and her stuttering husband will find each other again. The scene with Donna and the doctor - both heartbroken was touching.

Donna: How are you, doctor?
Doctor: Me...alright. I'm alright.
Donna: Is that special timelord code for actually not being alright
[the doctor looks at Donna]
Donna [quietly] : ....because I am also alright

Neither of them is alright and in this library both have left behind more then just memories.

One more word about River. I think the main reason why she was such a fabulous character was because Alex Kingston made her one. She is a fabulous actress. She brought River alive in the same way that Carey Mulligan brought Sally Sparrow alive. Stephen Moffat was lucky that his wonderful strong creations were played by equally strong women (okay all except Madame de Pompadour who left no impression on me because I don't dig Sophia Myles)

I adored Alex Kingston's voice-over at the end, so I transcribed it:

When you run with the doctor, it feels like it will never end but however hard you try, you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies and nobody knows it like the doctor but I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he just for one moment accepted that. Everybody knows that everybody dies but not every day. Not today. Some days are special. Some days are so, so blessed. Some days nobody dies at all. Now and then. Every once in a very long while. Every day in a million days, when the wind stands fair and the doctor comes to call - EVERYBODY LIVES.

Was that beautiful or what? ^_^

I just loved how the doctor stood in front of the TARDIS and did indeed open it with a snap of his fingers. Just like River said his future self could do. It seems there are a lot things the doctor doesn't know about himself either. We know that he is a telepath and the way it looks his powers in general grow over time.

One last word about the music. It made me almost weep. Murray Gold totally outdid himself again. It was sweeping, epic and at the end of the episode had the most beautiful and powerful rendition of the doctors theme. I hope that lots of music from that two parter will be on the next album.

[Naonak]

Hehe, for a good chunk, the little girl was basically just watching Doctor Who...

I don't really think I need to talk about David Tennant and Steven Moffat's awesomeness.

Anyway, even though a lot of people guessed some of it, there were still plenty of twists in store - the "doctor moon", Cal being a real girl, and the Vashta Nerada having hatched in the library...

Loved how the Vashta Nerada looked the Doctor up and then decided not to mess with him...!

Couldn't help but grin at the Doctor's "I'm very good!" and smiling at Cal... Once again, "everybody lives..." (kinda)

And it looks like we could be getting more Doctor/Companion shipping at some point in the future, then...

[kirmit]

There were so many aspects of this episode I liked, coupled with last weeks it makes a brilliant 2 parter. I don't think we'll be seeing river again to be honest, the impression I got is that she's from way into the doctors future, hence her constantly calling him young. The bit that I loved the most though was what she said about 'her' doctor, whole armies running from him etc, this gave me chills because no matter how great the doctor is now he's only a fraction of what he'll be in the future.

[Jonzey]

I personally hope we never find out his real name. There is no way it could be anything but an anticlimax. I mean, remember Mr Bennett in season 1 of Heroes, how we only found out his name in the season finale, then it was just like ''ok, so what?'' I don't expect a much better response from when (if) we find out the doctor's name. All it would do is remove some of his mystery.

And yeah, marriage seems like the most likely future to me.

And I wonder how long SM has known he'd be taking over, because he's certainly sown a few seeds for future story arcs -not just River Song, but wasn't he also the one who ((The Doctor's Daughter spoilers))

Spoiler:

insisted that Jenny wasn't killed off?

[Matt G]

1. Boy did I make a bad call in the last ep. Yes the computer was screwed up, but then again, it was being controlled by a kid! A bit irresponsible by the Lux family to leave such a big time computer in a kid's hands, even with "Dr Moon" as a safety net!

2. Miss Evangilista in VR behind the veil looked freakier than the skeletons! Got caught completely off guard there!

3. OK, I'm an IT guy and I didn't get the "saved" thing but I was way ahead of the Doctor in terms of forests = trees = paper = books!

4. River. She had an interesting chemistry with the Doctor - why he gave her his name I'm not sure. I can't see him marrying and there's no history of him having that kind of relationship with his companions.

5. "Everybody lives". Yes and no. I can think of a lot worse ways to do life after death than in VR but this wasn't quite a rerun of "The Doctor Dances".

Very solid two parter though.

[Alipeeps]

I really don't get how the memory thing got inside the screwdriver, where did the future Doctor get it? Because surely it would have been on river's suit until the end?

I assumed it was a different chip - obviously the technology is widely available at that time, so he's simply found a way to integrate it into the screwdriver. It's not the one from her suit but a different one and it would still pick up/save her neural energy etc because she had it with her all the time.

There's no way he could go back in his own personal timeline to get the chip from River's suit - and it wouldn't have worked anyway if he did because then that chip with her neural energy saved in it would have been in the screwdriver, degrading and fading, the whole time they were in the Library (and before that, the time between when he gave her the screwdriver and she came to the Library). So it had to have been a different chip that he hid in the screwdriver so that it would save her neural energy at the moment she died.

From what he said about "there's only one time I could [tell you my name]" I got that they went to the time war... Maybe that's going to be the grand finale of the entire series? (Not this one, I mean the ending of ALL Dr Who series.)

Oooh now there's an interesting idea! Maybe! Although, as I said above, from watching Dr Who Confidential, the possible future wife thing seems to be what the writers/producers etc were trying to hint at.

I personally hope we never find out his real name. There is no way it could be anything but an anticlimax. I mean, remember Mr Bennett in season 1 of Heroes, how we only found out his name in the season finale, then it was just like ''ok, so what?'' I don't expect a much better response from when (if) we find out the doctor's name. All it would do is remove some of his mystery.

Definitely. They talked about that in Doctor Who Confidential too - about the fact that the mystery of it is what's fascinating and they'd never be able to give him a name because nothing would ever be good enough to live up to that mystery. If you found out his name was Keith or something, then it would be such an anticlimax!

[LiliJ]

I had hoped for a clear answer who River Song was but unfortunately we didn't get one. Just tantalizing bits and pieces. I don't think that River was married to the doctor and if she had been, then it was the weirdest marriage ever. The doctor turning up whenever he wants to or when she calls him but everything she said made me wonder. She knew his name. The name we even do not know and it seems to be very, very special. I wonder on what very special occasion that name is uttered. Maybe childbirth but that seems so far fetched. Can anybody think of an occasion when the doctor would give away his real name other then marriage and childbirth because I can't think of any. It certainly has nothing to do with sex I think, because I do believe that the doctor gets some, sometimes ;-) River was a wonderful character and IMHO whoever will be in charge of the doctor in the future is now forced to bring the storyline back though I doubt that Alex Kingston will play River again. I think it would be a wonderful storyline for the last doctor aka doctor number 13. Since we all love the doctor too much and the Beep has no interest in killing off a character that has been on air for fifty years I doubt, that the end will come any time soon. I think fanfic authors are called to action here to spin the story of the 13th doctor and River Song. I felt so sorry for Donna. The virtual reality life showed that, despite her constant assurances that she wants to travel with the doctor forever, all she truly craves is a normal life with kids and a loving husband. I do hope that Donna and her stuttering husband will find each other again. The scene with Donna and the doctor - both heartbroken was touching.

The time war!!! I just think that's the only time he could EVER say his name - marriage and childbirth seem too tame to me. I mean, he's a timelord - he must have been to heaps of those (maybe even his own ).

I personally hope we never find out his real name. There is no way it could be anything but an anticlimax.

Yeah, me too, to be honest. I mean with such an advanced species like that a name isn't just going to be a label we use to define ourselves - "The Doctor" is his. In a series of book I once read, a person's proper name was a sound, a feeling, and an image all at once. If the name was ever uttered it had a deep and powerful link to the person's soul - I think the Doctor's name has got to be something like that.

I don't like the whole wifey thing to be honest. It seems too tame for the Doctor, and I don't think he'd ever let himself make that kind of a commitment to a human as they won't live as long as him - it wouldn't be fair to them. Also they could never understand him completely (which I think he thinks is a good thing). But River did seem to be a pretty amazing woman! I hope that we get to see her again.

I assumed it was a different chip - obviously the technology is widely available at that time, so he's simply found a way to integrate it into the screwdriver. It's not the one from her suit but a different one and it would still pick up/save her neural energy etc because she had it with her all the time.

That's a possibility.

[Jonzey]

I doubt it would be the grand finale of the entire series because
a) that could be years away, if ever
b) she would have to be familiar with what the current doctor looks likes
c) by that time, the actress would probably look older or theyd have to get someone else
d) its a long way in advance to plan the end of the series

of course, im talking about 10 or more years in the future- given how the series is not limited by actors or showrunners it doesn't need to have an end. at least, not anytime soon.

[LiliJ]

Yeah, I know, I just thought they'd put something that big right at the end - it would be hard to follow up. I'm personally thinking that the younger River will be played by someone else and the Doctor will give her one of his regenerations (I got told at some point that that's possible - something in the older series I think).