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    #61
    Some things from me:

    -Tyrol stole the ep this week, both with his eulogy and his rant in the bar. I saw his rant containing some truth - I do believe that he loved Boomer but settled for Cally. That's not to say that he didn't love Cally, just that it was a more resigned and shallower love. I got the sense that his anger was less over marrying Cally and more over the confinement and lack of choices in the RTF. It wasn't the life any of them had expected, and it's perfectly understandable for them to rant about the unfairness of it all.

    -Roslin's wig makes her look like Cain, and I hear that choice was intentional. Scary foreshadowing there. She still knows how to stick it to Baltar. I was touched and saddened to see her talk about her likely funeral with Adama and watch him carry her bag.

    -While I agree more with Lee than Roslin this week, I still find his idealism and grandstanding grating. Yes, he just had to be there to save Baltar from the military. Savior Lee, we get it. You're high up on my choice for Fifth, buddy.

    -Baltar as Jesus is getting way too blatant for me, especially this week with his take on the moneychangers. I'm somewhat interested in the consequences of his "you're perfect just the way you are" philosophy, but I still find his storyline slow. It doesn't help that I find his followers dumb and malleable.

    -Still not sure what dictates Baltar seeing head!Six vs. head!Baltar, and I hope there's a good explanation coming down the road.

    -Tory has found an excuse for her apathy in "I'm not bad, I'm just programmed that way." I don't think things are going to end well with her. Did Lee see her with Baltar at the end? I doubt Madam Pres would be too happy with that info.

    -Tigh changes diapers, heh.

    -The interactions between Six and Tigh were simultaneously touching and scary. Those visions of his wife - creepy as hell. On Letterman Trisha did quip that one reason to watch s4 was to see her naked, followed by Michael saying the same. But I never thought we might see both of them naked...together.

    -I'm also surprised that Racetrack and her co didn't bite it after seeing the special effects. I'm half-expecting someone to die in every ep from now until the end.

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      #62
      Cut some of my replies down, but didn't re-read; really long, enjoy xD
      If I repeat something, it's because I'm tired.

      Originally posted by entil2001 View Post
      Because this is largely a transitional piece, the key to success was character exploration and, in turn, a philosophical theme. Almost everyone involved in this episode was tested by some kind of pain or strife.
      Really, it's about time they broke down. I don't know why they haven't already; their families are gone, their home planets are gone, the lives they used to know completely vanished. And when they think it's okay again, that they can start all over again...oh, hey, look, cylons!

      I think any human being in their right mind would begin to break down, piece by piece, by the downfalls, and all the death, all the stress, all the tragedy, all the losses, all the sadness. Viper pilots, more so; they risk their lives, every single day, with nawt a thank you or a pat on the back. Just more near death, just more death, just more sorrow.

      Don't you think you'd eventually become like them?

      Originally posted by entil2001 View Post
      Adama, having a rather flexible definition of morality himself (particularly when it comes to his “family”), doesn’t disagree. The episode itself suggests that Roslin might have been right to be concerned about Baltar, because the result of his trial is a renewed sense of confidence. Even Lee seemed concerned with the consequences of his decision.
      The consequences of his decision is continuing with the path of what he originally chose when he saved the man from the military: justice. If he wishes to uphold such a justice, he has to keep following the path he chose when he stepped into the court room, full of bravado and mojo.

      Quite frankly, the look Lee gave Baltar and his followers when they swarmed over to help Baltar after getting his face smacked in with a gun confirms such a suggestion. Even the one after the grand speech given by Jesus Baltar himself, all just confirms now Lee's conflicting emotions.

      Originally posted by entil2001 View Post
      Ironically, I’m still convinced that the survival of Humanity is through a blending with the Cylons. Baltar and his monotheistic cult could very likely be a part of that movement, along with Kara’s search for Earth, and that puts Roslin as more of an impediment to survival than a benefit. Yet in very many ways, they never would have gotten so far without her, and it’s quite possible that she’s the final Cylon, acting from unseen and unrealized influences.
      Much agreed, although the original efforts were very double edged. It seems the Cylons were unsure of how to go about it, incapable (or just closing their ears to) of finding other paths other than the war headed one they had been trooping down to begin with.

      This is almost an obvious choice, but so is so many; people want a surprise, I want proper development. Although I would much rather a Dee Adama coming up from no where, making Leoben a maniacal prophet, being the fifth and final cylon that had been so close the entire time, and even under Lee's skin, or a Zak Adama back from the dead, I can see Roslin pulling off a very good final cylon. If they get the right writer doing the script for that episode, of course; at least, before the put us on a year hold, they'll be telling us who on earth the final cylon is.

      Nevertheless! Rambling. The idea of Jesus Baltar, which very much so reflects on the Catholic religion of our own world, seems to be a repeat of history. The Greek and Roman mythology was wiped out, more or less, by other religions; mainly, Catholic, which followers the law of One God. Disregard the fairy tales and all, and think to the tale of Jesus; does Baltar not fit the bill? Wonder how that one will turn out.

      My thoughts on Kara's expedition are hardly much right now. After a Leoben brain invasion, and her dying, with Lee's very solemn and emotionless reply to the supposed love of his life dying before his very eyes, I haven't got too much of an opinion on our dear resurrected Starbuck. She came back, she throws a fit, is confused as heck, raises a gun to the dying wig lady, and everyone is angry. Even wig lady is angry at the Admiral for giving whom he considers family a CHANCE. So, how that turns out, who knows; I do believe she will be the one to find earth, not Roslin. And dying inside of your head, is also a case of death; mental suffering. And prophecies are what you make of them; apparently, Kara already died in specific terms. Maybe dying meant to die, one destined to die, with rebirth? Who knows.

      Originally posted by Lady Snow View Post
      emphasis mine

      I fail to see how these are "over zealous character changes." Lee's always been an idealist and has always stood up for what he believes is right. Baltar's always been a self-serving self-considered-pariah. The series is finally exploring these facets of their characters in different contexts - not for the first time ever.
      Quite frankly, this is true, in it's own dialect. I would have liked to see Lee dissapear somewhere in the seasons, but for a long time he's been, more or less, the face of the show. As I would have liked more Helo, or Felix, development rather than going crazy on a couple characters, I never got it, and became satisfied with the hot-headed two-timer with the call sign after my favorite Roman god.

      But it is slightly an over-zealous character change. He never chased after Roslin so harshly, nor do I think it is like him to abandon the pilot seat when their other best pilot is off chasing stars with Helo, Athena, Felix, Anders, and Leoben. Although his method of pursuing this assaults on her hidden changes to the legislature and private conducting of law, I can't see him turning his back on the people to make it better for them amongst the ships. It's just not like Lee.

      As for Jesus Baltar. I don't think he's doing it all for himself; if it had really mattered, he would have turned around on the guards and found a new home to stay in to prevent bodily harm. Although Head6 seemed to prevent that transition, I don't think his speech was exactly...how do you say, personal? Too much emotion, too much connection; too much Head6 corruption. He's also dog tagging after the Miss Pres. to investigate on the Sons of Ares, but that could also be for personal gain.

      In the end, it's really how you look at it.

      Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
      -While I agree more with Lee than Roslin this week, I still find his idealism and grandstanding grating. Yes, he just had to be there to save Baltar from the military. Savior Lee, we get it. You're high up on my choice for Fifth, buddy.
      I completely, and utterly, agree. There are so many weird things going on with that whole ideology; if only they knew that Baltar had actually caused the original downfall, and that without this Baltar they all know as the lab rat making love to thin air and swooning looks at an imaginary figure, none of it would have ever happened. Nobody would have died. So really, being executed for laying down the resistance and crying on a couch about Cylons being incompetent with co-existance doesn't really support his original stance.

      Ahhh, too bad that hasn't popped out of the bag yet. Or at least, not that i know of; correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it has. I do zone out during Baltar parts, and I fell asleep during the whole speech of justice episode.

      Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
      -Baltar as Jesus is getting way too blatant for me, especially this week with his take on the moneychangers. I'm somewhat interested in the consequences of his "you're perfect just the way you are" philosophy, but I still find his storyline slow. It doesn't help that I find his followers dumb and malleable.
      That's how it normally is, with religion. (I'm an atheist, so excuse my blatant bluntness.) I find it sort of sickening to watch them swoon over him and assume he's a god, with one little miracle. Although, I'd be a little curious if a child sick to death with an incurable disease is suddenly okay, but I would not throw away all other possibilities to stand in awe of him.

      Getting beat up by followers of the Old Religion is so not worth praying to Jesus Baltar.

      Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
      -Tory has found an excuse for her apathy in "I'm not bad, I'm just programmed that way." I don't think things are going to end well with her. Did Lee see her with Baltar at the end? I doubt Madam Pres would be too happy with that info.
      That sort of info would make me laugh. I would fall off my couch, laughing, much like I have many other times when Roslin has gotten that little tidbit of information then pistol whipped Admiral Adama to get what she wants due to unsettling news. I could say it another way? But hey.

      I'm not entirely sure they did. I couldn't put my money on it, as that episode was a little...ehhh at that part. Not too interested in a Tory/Baltar fest. Would have been more interesting if it was Dee/Baltar, and Lee walked in, of course. But otherwise.

      As for her excuse: It's a bad one. Tory has always been that sort of off character, disregarding the whole cylon junk. And in reality, there is no programming; all of the cylons are capable of developing different ways, as it is shown between Sharron, Athena, Caprica...you get the idea. So really, it's false-hearted and moronic. I don't like her being one of the four, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone shot HER out of the airlock.

      Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
      -The interactions between Six and Tigh were simultaneously touching and scary. Those visions of his wife - creepy as hell. On Letterman Trisha did quip that one reason to watch s4 was to see her naked, followed by Michael saying the same. But I never thought we might see both of them naked...together.
      That's terrifying. Sol? Naked? With Six? x____x! No thank you!

      I found that part a little...hm. How do you say? Bleh. It's hard to explain why I was blinking crazily, as if trying to get rid of it, when she was beating the bologna out of our poor old alcoholic wife-killer, but to go as far as to make him hallucinate that she's Ellen and have her kiss him in the end? Too much for me, too much.

      Sol has always aggravated me. But that's just how his character is supposed to be; that drunk who keeps being lugged around by Adama, the slightly useless old man sending off suicide bombers to blow up Jesus Baltar. I like him for that though. Sort of a love/hate there.

      Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
      -I'm also surprised that Racetrack and her co didn't bite it after seeing the special effects. I'm half-expecting someone to die in every ep from now until the end.
      In the graphics, the top got completely flattened, it flipped over, and the front was totaled. Fire was everywhere, it looked like chunks of the raptor went flying every which way and a mass of sparks due to collision pretty much sums up that scene. Not that much damage showed once they flipped to the mid-repair scene, and they were completely, COMPLETELY, untouched, uniforms and all. Which surprised me; even if Racetrack had suddenly been beamed to the back of the raptor, there should have been some sort of damage to them; the inside should have been a bit of a mess, which that much outer damage.

      But not a scratch.

      Racetrack is just that chick Lee confused with Starbuck; other than that, she's not a major character (so far as we know! ) thusly her death wouldn't strike me as that important, or major.
      Last edited by CellarDwellar; 29 April 2008, 07:36 PM. Reason: Spelling errors ftl.

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        #63
        Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
        head!Six vs. head!Baltar
        I wish people would stop writing that.

        Originally posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
        -Tigh changes diapers, heh.
        Aye, funny. But... don't you think (apart from when he's with Caprica 6) he's the most human of the lot? His visits to Caprica 6 just wouldn't happen, wouldn't be allowed to continue, and would have been reported.
        Mongoletsi is bigger than hip...hop...




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          #64
          Great ep, but I have a couple of minor quibbles with Jane's overall excellent writing:

          First, the lines from the book, Searider Falcon:

          "I wasn't afraid to die. I was afraid of the emptiness that I felt inside. I couldn't feel anything. And that's what scared me."

          Is this Adama's idea of something to read to someone facing a terminal illness to cheer them up? Yeesh. Count me out of Bill's Bedtime Story club.

          I also have an issue with this line of dialog by Baltar:

          "The time has come to make a stand."

          Okay, that's a good line. But then it's followed by this:

          "And that time is now."

          Uh, yeah, not so good. I mean, if the time has come, then the time is now, by definition. When else would the time be, if it's come? Or to paraphrase Hillel, if not now, when?

          This post brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department. Now I'm off to use the ATM machine....

          DB

          Comment


            #65
            It was definitely an interesting episode with Tyrol. He's really going through a lot with a) death of wife Cally, b) questioning what he knows about himself now that he's a cylon, c) extra work as a single dad.

            As for his role in the raptor crash, he must be wondering if he's freaked out because of Cally, or if his cylon part made him do that. I don't think it's the latter, but *he* might understandably think that.

            BTW, I was saying to myself "please don't kill racetrack, please!" as the raptor crashed. I like her a lot, although she's massively underused. I am very happy she's still here, though I must admit that I can't figure out how she could have survived a crash like that.

            Did anyone else read the Tyrol-Adama exchange in the bar as perhaps deliberately provoked by Tyrol to get himself thrown off the job so as not to endanger anyone else? I could understand Tyrol's anger, but I thought notching it up like that might have been a deliberate thing to get that result.

            And Adama's comments about "cylon half breed child" were pretty obviously imagined by Tyrol as far as I can tell. Adama would have to know that Tyrol was a cylon in order to say that, and even so, it would be out of character for him to refer to Tyrol's son like that - it's not how he refers to Hera, for example.

            Finally, there's Tori. It's clear that Tori refers to Cally's death as a suicide, and the implication is that she's covering for herself. But one wonders if maybe even *she* doesn't know her role in the death. Boomer didn't know she was setting explosives in season 1's "Water" episode; maybe Tori doesn't think she killed Cally because her brain deleted the memory. Personally, I think it's more likely she's covering up, but I can't dismiss that possibility.

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              #66
              1. Interesting...implications of Tory acting rogue last week and Tigh playing nice. Conflicting counsel on how to deal with Cally's death don't mean anything though.

              2. I was sure Racetrack was a scratch - apparantly not but I really don't like the idea of the Chief losing the plot to that extent!

              3. Lee is being a PITA for Roslin but with mixed results. Now he has to work out how to deal with Baltar!

              4. Tigh and Six - what the hell is going on here? It would make more sense if Six knew he was a Cylon!

              Very good ep but next week sounds more interesting.
              I SURF FOR THE FREEDOM!

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                #67
                podcast is up

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                  #68
                  The religious drivel really pulled down the episode for me. For a moment towards the end there you'd be forgiven for thinking you were watching Battlestar Jerusalem. In fact, the only thing I have liked Lee do this season is pull that face at the end of the sermon with Baltar.

                  Six pulling up Baltar is one of the most intriguing moments of the show. I'm itching to know what the story is there.
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