John Sheppard Can't Win

[KindlyKeller]

So, I know Teyla and Ronon are supposed to be the two "baddest" warriors in Pegasus, and I enjoy it when they assert themselves as such, but does anyone else think it's strange or get a little annoyed at how, whenever we see them sparring with Sheppard or in a cooperative combat situation, John always gets his butt kicked mercilessly and easily, as if he's not a highly-trained, formidable former "black ops" soldier?

[ykickamoocow]

So, I know Teyla and Ronon are supposed to be the two "baddest" warriors in Pegasus, and I enjoy it when they assert themselves as such, but does anyone else think it's strange or get a little annoyed at how, whenever we see them sparring with Sheppard or in a cooperative combat situation, John always gets his butt kicked mercilessly and easily, as if he's not a highly-trained, formidable former "black ops" soldier?

He isnt black ops. Remember before joining the Atlantis team he flew choppers which isnt exactly the role of a black ops soldier. We have no evidence that Sheppard was every used or even trained as a black ops soldier.

[jenks]

Not so much with Ronon as he's built like a brick **** house, but Teyla kicking his arse all the time has me rolling my eyes a bit, I mean she's like 5' 4" or something!

[MerryK]

Not so much with Ronon as he's built like a brick **** house, but Teyla kicking his arse all the time has me rolling my eyes a bit, I mean she's like 5' 4" or something!

Size means absolutely nothing to a skilled martial artist. I've seen this rule proven many times in real life. Now, whether Teyla fits into that category is arguable, but I tire of people equating size with skill level.

[KindlyKeller]

He isnt black ops. Remember before joining the Atlantis team he flew choppers which isnt exactly the role of a black ops soldier. We have no evidence that Sheppard was every used or even trained as a black ops soldier.

I remember that was how he was introduced, but since then I feel like they've dropping hints that he was doing more "top secret" stuff... not that the new hints they're dropping are logically consistent with what we knew about him. His conversation with his ex-wife comes to mind.

[naamiaiset]

Size means absolutely nothing to a skilled martial artist. I've seen this rule proven many times in real life. Now, whether Teyla fits into that category is arguable, but I tire of people equating size with skill level.

true... I have the same idea when teyla takes down ronon. I think sheppard is meant to be knocked around by ronon/teyla, it's just part of his character. he seems to match up well enough with "normal" fighters though.

[jenks]

Size means absolutely nothing to a skilled martial artist. I've seen this rule proven many times in real life. Now, whether Teyla fits into that category is arguable, but I tire of people equating size with skill level.

Maybe to an extent, but I think no amount of training would stop Shep kicking seven shades of **** out of a skinny 5' 4" woman. The cliche hot chick who can kick ass is really getting old and it's only done for cheap kicks by writers who don't know how to write strong female characters.

[KindlyKeller]

Maybe to an extent, but I think no amount of training would stop Shep kicking seven shades of **** out of a skinny 5' 4" woman. The cliche hot chick who can kick ass is really getting old and it's only done for cheap kicks by writers who don't know how to write strong female characters.

I agree that the writers think that having Teyla physically beat people up makes it okay to do whatever with her, because "look, we may be men, but we respect women and take them seriously!" I used to get annoyed watching X-Files when Mulder would get his butt kicked by anyone and everyone, but Scully rarely got taken down. I genuinely appreciate the attempt to not make my gender look fragile, but it's too much sometimes.

[MerryK]

Maybe to an extent, but I think no amount of training would stop Shep kicking seven shades of **** out of a skinny 5' 4" woman. The cliche hot chick who can kick ass is really getting old and it's only done for cheap kicks by writers who don't know how to write strong female characters.

Only if both of them were fighting based on physical strength. A 5'4" woman could easily beat any man by being faster, more agile, and in control of her balance. I've seen a 5'2" friend of mine take down a 6'2" opponent, when both were at the same skill level, just for one example. In fact, it's almost inevitable that Teyla be able to take down Sheppard and Ronon, as their fighting styles are very much reliant on their bulk and strength, while Teyla moves smoothly and quickly, just like real martial artists. I believe in Teyla, 'cause I've seen her real life counterparts. You might say that Teyla's role is stereotypical, but you can't say that it's unrealistic.

[Killdeer]

The problem is that the writers aren't consistant. I think they've given some strong hints that Sheppard was special ops, and they have him take down an entire Genii strike force in The Storm/The Eye, but then they have him get knocked around by someone like Larrin.

Sheppard's not the only one who suffers from the inconsistancy though. For all of Teyla's supposed martial arts skills, she gets kidnapped or taken hostage a surprising amount of times. She takes on Wraith hand to hand in Suspicion but Michael drags her around like a doll. She kicks Ronon's butt in Echoes, but the guy in The Ark takes her hostage even though he can barely stay on his feet.

It's one of Stargate's most consistant problems - that of writing their characters to fit their storylines, rather than the other way around.

[KindlyKeller]

That's a good point, killdeer.

Another one is how Rodney is several times shown to be pretty accurate with a gun, specifically in "The Defiant One," where from 15 feet or so, he unloads all of his bullets into the Wraith's chest.

Then, in other episodes, he can't even keep the clip in or he's fumbling around or Carson's telling him he's a "terrible shot." Hearing that from CARSON of all people has to be troubling.

[Killdeer]

That's a good point, killdeer.

Another one is how Rodney is several times shown to be pretty accurate with a gun, specifically in "The Defiant One," where from 15 feet or so, he unloads all of his bullets into the Wraith's chest.

Then, in other episodes, he can't even keep the clip in or he's fumbling around or Carson's telling him he's a "terrible shot." Hearing that from CARSON of all people has to be troubling.

Oh yes - exactly. I thought of that after I posted. That has ALWAYS annoyed me!

[jenks]

Only if both of them were fighting based on physical strength. A 5'4" woman could easily beat any man by being faster, more agile, and in control of her balance. I've seen a 5'2" friend of mine take down a 6'2" opponent, when both were at the same skill level, just for one example. In fact, it's almost inevitable that Teyla be able to take down Sheppard and Ronon, as their fighting styles are very much reliant on their bulk and strength, while Teyla moves smoothly and quickly, just like real martial artists. I believe in Teyla, 'cause I've seen her real life counterparts. You might say that Teyla's role is stereotypical, but you can't say that it's unrealistic.

Are you talking about fights in martial arts classes though or actual fights? Because they're not even close to being the same thing.

[MerryK]

Are you talking about fights in martial arts classes though or actual fights? Because they're not even close to being the same thing.

Martial arts tournaments, yes, and I'm not saying that they're equivalent to real fights. But that's what Sheppard and Teyla, and Ronon and Teyla, were doing when we saw them fighting, so I felt the comparison worthy. Both parties may not actually want the other to be killed/knocked unconscious, but they are fighting competitively and may inflict much pain on the other—most people who can perform extremely well in sparring can hold their own in a real fight, because they have been trained to the point where each movement is unconscious. As long as they aren't frozen in shock when it comes to the real thing, which obviously doesn't apply to Teyla.

[Bessie Bear]

Could the black ops experience be the flying he does as someone mentioned and not his involve with the stargate program? the way i see the abliites of ronan and teyla is ronan was more hands on military because the wraith wars and his time as a runner, and teyla was probably trained from a child to defend her people from the wraith given her special ability.

just a thought