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  1. #1

    Default John Sheppard Can't Win

    So, I know Teyla and Ronon are supposed to be the two "baddest" warriors in Pegasus, and I enjoy it when they assert themselves as such, but does anyone else think it's strange or get a little annoyed at how, whenever we see them sparring with Sheppard or in a cooperative combat situation, John always gets his butt kicked mercilessly and easily, as if he's not a highly-trained, formidable former "black ops" soldier?
    Theoretically spoilerish:

  2. #2
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by KindlyKeller View Post
    So, I know Teyla and Ronon are supposed to be the two "baddest" warriors in Pegasus, and I enjoy it when they assert themselves as such, but does anyone else think it's strange or get a little annoyed at how, whenever we see them sparring with Sheppard or in a cooperative combat situation, John always gets his butt kicked mercilessly and easily, as if he's not a highly-trained, formidable former "black ops" soldier?
    He isnt black ops. Remember before joining the Atlantis team he flew choppers which isnt exactly the role of a black ops soldier. We have no evidence that Sheppard was every used or even trained as a black ops soldier.

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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Not so much with Ronon as he's built like a brick **** house, but Teyla kicking his arse all the time has me rolling my eyes a bit, I mean she's like 5' 4" or something!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Not so much with Ronon as he's built like a brick **** house, but Teyla kicking his arse all the time has me rolling my eyes a bit, I mean she's like 5' 4" or something!
    Size means absolutely nothing to a skilled martial artist. I've seen this rule proven many times in real life. Now, whether Teyla fits into that category is arguable, but I tire of people equating size with skill level.

  5. #5

    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by ykickamoocow View Post
    He isnt black ops. Remember before joining the Atlantis team he flew choppers which isnt exactly the role of a black ops soldier. We have no evidence that Sheppard was every used or even trained as a black ops soldier.
    I remember that was how he was introduced, but since then I feel like they've dropping hints that he was doing more "top secret" stuff... not that the new hints they're dropping are logically consistent with what we knew about him. His conversation with his ex-wife comes to mind.
    Theoretically spoilerish:

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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by MerryK View Post
    Size means absolutely nothing to a skilled martial artist. I've seen this rule proven many times in real life. Now, whether Teyla fits into that category is arguable, but I tire of people equating size with skill level.
    true... I have the same idea when teyla takes down ronon. I think sheppard is meant to be knocked around by ronon/teyla, it's just part of his character. he seems to match up well enough with "normal" fighters though.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by MerryK View Post
    Size means absolutely nothing to a skilled martial artist. I've seen this rule proven many times in real life. Now, whether Teyla fits into that category is arguable, but I tire of people equating size with skill level.
    Maybe to an extent, but I think no amount of training would stop Shep kicking seven shades of **** out of a skinny 5' 4" woman. The cliche hot chick who can kick ass is really getting old and it's only done for cheap kicks by writers who don't know how to write strong female characters.
    Last edited by jenks; April 6th, 2008 at 08:15 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Maybe to an extent, but I think no amount of training would stop Shep kicking seven shades of **** out of a skinny 5' 4" woman. The cliche hot chick who can kick ass is really getting old and it's only done for cheap kicks by writers who don't know how to write strong female characters.
    I agree that the writers think that having Teyla physically beat people up makes it okay to do whatever with her, because "look, we may be men, but we respect women and take them seriously!" I used to get annoyed watching X-Files when Mulder would get his butt kicked by anyone and everyone, but Scully rarely got taken down. I genuinely appreciate the attempt to not make my gender look fragile, but it's too much sometimes.
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  9. #9
    Major MerryK's Avatar
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Maybe to an extent, but I think no amount of training would stop Shep kicking seven shades of **** out of a skinny 5' 4" woman. The cliche hot chick who can kick ass is really getting old and it's only done for cheap kicks by writers who don't know how to write strong female characters.
    Only if both of them were fighting based on physical strength. A 5'4" woman could easily beat any man by being faster, more agile, and in control of her balance. I've seen a 5'2" friend of mine take down a 6'2" opponent, when both were at the same skill level, just for one example. In fact, it's almost inevitable that Teyla be able to take down Sheppard and Ronon, as their fighting styles are very much reliant on their bulk and strength, while Teyla moves smoothly and quickly, just like real martial artists. I believe in Teyla, 'cause I've seen her real life counterparts. You might say that Teyla's role is stereotypical, but you can't say that it's unrealistic.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    The problem is that the writers aren't consistant. I think they've given some strong hints that Sheppard was special ops, and they have him take down an entire Genii strike force in The Storm/The Eye, but then they have him get knocked around by someone like Larrin.

    Sheppard's not the only one who suffers from the inconsistancy though. For all of Teyla's supposed martial arts skills, she gets kidnapped or taken hostage a surprising amount of times. She takes on Wraith hand to hand in Suspicion but Michael drags her around like a doll. She kicks Ronon's butt in Echoes, but the guy in The Ark takes her hostage even though he can barely stay on his feet.

    It's one of Stargate's most consistant problems - that of writing their characters to fit their storylines, rather than the other way around.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    That's a good point, killdeer.

    Another one is how Rodney is several times shown to be pretty accurate with a gun, specifically in "The Defiant One," where from 15 feet or so, he unloads all of his bullets into the Wraith's chest.

    Then, in other episodes, he can't even keep the clip in or he's fumbling around or Carson's telling him he's a "terrible shot." Hearing that from CARSON of all people has to be troubling.
    Theoretically spoilerish:

  12. #12
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by KindlyKeller View Post
    That's a good point, killdeer.

    Another one is how Rodney is several times shown to be pretty accurate with a gun, specifically in "The Defiant One," where from 15 feet or so, he unloads all of his bullets into the Wraith's chest.

    Then, in other episodes, he can't even keep the clip in or he's fumbling around or Carson's telling him he's a "terrible shot." Hearing that from CARSON of all people has to be troubling.
    Oh yes - exactly. I thought of that after I posted. That has ALWAYS annoyed me!
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by MerryK View Post
    Only if both of them were fighting based on physical strength. A 5'4" woman could easily beat any man by being faster, more agile, and in control of her balance. I've seen a 5'2" friend of mine take down a 6'2" opponent, when both were at the same skill level, just for one example. In fact, it's almost inevitable that Teyla be able to take down Sheppard and Ronon, as their fighting styles are very much reliant on their bulk and strength, while Teyla moves smoothly and quickly, just like real martial artists. I believe in Teyla, 'cause I've seen her real life counterparts. You might say that Teyla's role is stereotypical, but you can't say that it's unrealistic.
    Are you talking about fights in martial arts classes though or actual fights? Because they're not even close to being the same thing.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Are you talking about fights in martial arts classes though or actual fights? Because they're not even close to being the same thing.
    Martial arts tournaments, yes, and I'm not saying that they're equivalent to real fights. But that's what Sheppard and Teyla, and Ronon and Teyla, were doing when we saw them fighting, so I felt the comparison worthy. Both parties may not actually want the other to be killed/knocked unconscious, but they are fighting competitively and may inflict much pain on the other—most people who can perform extremely well in sparring can hold their own in a real fight, because they have been trained to the point where each movement is unconscious. As long as they aren't frozen in shock when it comes to the real thing, which obviously doesn't apply to Teyla.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Could the black ops experience be the flying he does as someone mentioned and not his involve with the stargate program? the way i see the abliites of ronan and teyla is ronan was more hands on military because the wraith wars and his time as a runner, and teyla was probably trained from a child to defend her people from the wraith given her special ability.

    just a thought

  16. #16
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Its true that the seem to indicate that Sheppard was doing something special back on earth like in the episode Phantoms when we see his operation in Afghanistan and other such occasions.

  17. #17

    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by KindlyKeller View Post
    So, I know Teyla and Ronon are supposed to be the two "baddest" warriors in Pegasus, and I enjoy it when they assert themselves as such, but does anyone else think it's strange or get a little annoyed at how, whenever we see them sparring with Sheppard or in a cooperative combat situation, John always gets his butt kicked mercilessly and easily, as if he's not a highly-trained, formidable former "black ops" soldier?
    We have seen teyla fight with wraith so she should be able to take down sheppard.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Quote Originally Posted by jenks View Post
    Not so much with Ronon as he's built like a brick **** house, but Teyla kicking his arse all the time has me rolling my eyes a bit, I mean she's like 5' 4" or something!
    .: Size doesn't matter in terms of fighting ability. Your style and best techniques you use may differ, but lemme tell you I know plenty of, for lack of a better term, "short" women kick tall, even hunky men's asses. Heck I know one that is known as "the cup breaker".

    .: I think it's realistic Johnny gets whumped. He shoots things. Shooting is his specialty. Like he told Teyla, he would have shot her by now. (The Gift)
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    both Ronon and Teyla are excellent fighters, but I do think that some of the time Sheppard should get to at least come close to winning. However, the first time Rodney McKay kicks John's butt in a fight, I will swear off the show forever!

  20. #20
    Lieutenant Colonel captain jake's Avatar
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    Arrow2 Re: John Sheppard Can't Win

    Well now that Teyla is pregnant she will not be taking down anyone in a fight. As for Ronon he will always have a leg up on Sheppard, just like Teal'c had a leg up on Jack -a special forces veteran- but Teyla did not seem like she could have beat him as many times or as easily as she did. That is simply a plot hole that we will all have to live with. Teyla will hopefully be dispatched from the show allowing such plot holes to be plugged.

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