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    #61
    Originally posted by Snotr View Post

    Hehe. Thought of something else as a result of all this. It's partly a question, partly a joke, partly just something I pondered...and totally ridiculous, I guess

    Given that we have:

    1) Symbiote and host love as one/feel the same
    2) Lantash loves Sam

    What would happen if Lantash had blended with Sam in Last Stand/Summit? Would she fall in love with herself?

    Furthermore. Let's assume Sam loves Lantash and Martouf. Would he then fall in love with himself?

    - and just to make it even more confusing; lets assume Lantash had only left Martouf temporarily, to let them both heal up after the zatarc incident (we're now in a universe where they survived), and Lantash blends with Sam for a while, making them feel the same. Will Martouf then fall in love with himself the moment he reblends with Lantash?

    Don't mind me...I'm just being silly

    -Snotr
    You're funny, Snotr! I never got further than to the thought that if Lantash blended with Sam, then she might fall in love with herself...no idea what would really happen, but taking it literally, the above should be the logical conclusion Though - I'm guessing they wouldn't all end up in love with themselves (aside from each other, of course), even if that would make for a hilarious story.

    -Skadi
    sigpic
    Smilies made by Roeskva (http://www.tokra.dk/smilies.html)

    "Hear this. The days of the Goa'uld System Lords are numbered. Tell them that I died with hope. My death only feeds the fire that burns strong in the Tok'ra." (Jolinar, "In the Line of Duty")

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      #62
      On the subject of a Tok'ra harsesis, they proved when they found their Queen that passing on the genetic info is a decision. So the hosts could have kids and when they are old enough they can choose to blend.
      Then there's the thing of raising a kid while being hunted by the Goa'uld, and if captured the kids would be subject to torture or forced to be a host for the Goa'uld to take the information.
      On that thought, they probably were firstly against having kids, too dangerous for all.
      O'Neill: "Ah. Trees, trees and more trees! What a wonderfully green universe we live in, eh."

      Season 3 Episode 8 - Demons

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        #63
        Originally posted by Skadi View Post
        You're funny, Snotr! I never got further than to the thought that if Lantash blended with Sam, then she might fall in love with herself...no idea what would really happen, but taking it literally, the above should be the logical conclusion Though - I'm guessing they wouldn't all end up in love with themselves (aside from each other, of course), even if that would make for a hilarious story.

        -Skadi
        Actually, I don't think it's quite that simple. The way they talk about blending, it seems like it takes a while—after all, Sam didn't blend with Jolinar completely, but she did have some residual feelings that influenced her. I would say it takes a while for the full blending of minds to occur, and even longer for true blending of spirits where they experience the same emotions.

        As for the scenario, then, there'd definitely be some strange emotions going on in Sam's head if she had Lantash, but I think he'd hold back from true blending simply for that very reason. If he ever had to take Sam because there was no other option, I don't see either of them wanting it to be more than a slight, temporary blending.

        ~Friendshipping (among others) the two most awesome women of Stargate.
        ~My Stargate fanfic can be found on my Livejournal

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          #64
          Originally posted by Tiger View Post
          On the subject of a Tok'ra harsesis, they proved when they found their Queen that passing on the genetic info is a decision. So the hosts could have kids and when they are old enough they can choose to blend.
          Then there's the thing of raising a kid while being hunted by the Goa'uld, and if captured the kids would be subject to torture or forced to be a host for the Goa'uld to take the information.
          On that thought, they probably were firstly against having kids, too dangerous for all.
          Maybe, some probably did from time to time anyway. Now, though, there is not so much danger from the Goa'uld, so they should be able to 'settle down' a bit, and get some kids.

          Originally posted by MerryK View Post
          Actually, I don't think it's quite that simple. The way they talk about blending, it seems like it takes a while—after all, Sam didn't blend with Jolinar completely, but she did have some residual feelings that influenced her. I would say it takes a while for the full blending of minds to occur, and even longer for true blending of spirits where they experience the same emotions.

          As for the scenario, then, there'd definitely be some strange emotions going on in Sam's head if she had Lantash, but I think he'd hold back from true blending simply for that very reason. If he ever had to take Sam because there was no other option, I don't see either of them wanting it to be more than a slight, temporary blending.
          You are probably right that they need to do a full blending before they sync their emotions, and that it likely takes a while even after the full blending - my ideas were also mostly in jest

          We did see with Kanaan that they can do only a partial blending with not much sharing, which I think is also what Jolinar did with Sam, as she expected to leave her again. The difference was that Kanaan also blocked Jack from the majority of things, which I don't think Jolinar did (with the exception of some of the pain from the ashrak's hara'kesh probably, if she had the strength. Jolinar then was killed and could probably not stop lots or all of her memories and emotions from flowing over into Sam, jumbled.

          -Snotr
          sigpic Avatar, and icons in sig by Luciana

          Favorite love-dodecagon:
          (See http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....postcount=2238)
          Lantash/Jolinar/Martouf/Sam/Thor/Jack/Kanan/Tea'lc/Junior/Freya/Daniel/Anise

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            #65
            Regarding the full blending; I assume this is something only Tok'ra do, as they want the fully symbiotic relationship, leading to sharing of emotions and everything. The Goa'uld probably DON'T do a full blending, so the host don't necessarily feel anything for any mate the Goa'uld takes, and (if 'de-hosted') will not retain nearly as many memories. What do you think?
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            [Save Martouf/Lantash in the movies!] | My fics on Fanfiction.net | My fics on Symbiotica

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              #66
              Originally posted by Hathor_girl View Post
              Regarding the full blending; I assume this is something only Tok'ra do, as they want the fully symbiotic relationship, leading to sharing of emotions and everything. The Goa'uld probably DON'T do a full blending, so the host don't necessarily feel anything for any mate the Goa'uld takes, and (if 'de-hosted') will not retain nearly as many memories. What do you think?
              Probably, the Goa'uld would not want to share anything with the host, since they only consider it something to be used, like...a set of clothing, maybe? Thus, the host would not get the Goa'uld's feelings, knowledge, or memories from before the blending - though Vala seem to at least subconsiously have access to some memories, maybe just those acquired during the time she was host?

              -Skadi
              sigpic
              Smilies made by Roeskva (http://www.tokra.dk/smilies.html)

              "Hear this. The days of the Goa'uld System Lords are numbered. Tell them that I died with hope. My death only feeds the fire that burns strong in the Tok'ra." (Jolinar, "In the Line of Duty")

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Skadi View Post
                Probably, the Goa'uld would not want to share anything with the host, since they only consider it something to be used, like...a set of clothing, maybe? Thus, the host would not get the Goa'uld's feelings, knowledge, or memories from before the blending - though Vala seem to at least subconsiously have access to some memories, maybe just those acquired during the time she was host?

                -Skadi
                I agree, I was thinking about that myself. That's probably the reason that a Goa'uld can be removed from a host and keep the host alive (ala Skaara and Sarah Gardner), they don't fully blend. But they do partially. Maybe Qetesh blended more than others? but not enough that she couldn't be removed without hurting Vala. I'm thinking that might also explain Amaunet, maybe she let herself blend with Sha're a little too much which might explain her reaction in "Secrets". But it's too dangerous for a Goa'uld to become too blended with their host, the last thing they need is to start developing feelings for their enemy humans, lol! which is probably why Amaunet reacted by trying to kill Daniel in "Forever in a Day".

                But yeah, I think that since the Goa'uld aren't as much a threat anymore and the Ori aren't gonna be hunting them specifically over other humans (I haven't seen Ark of Truth yet, I'm not sure how things are resolved there). So some of them should totally settle down and start replenishing their population, lol! I wonder if Jolinar/Rosha and Martouf/Lantash wanted to have kids but knew it was too much of a bad idea?

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by nebulan View Post
                  I agree, I was thinking about that myself. That's probably the reason that a Goa'uld can be removed from a host and keep the host alive (ala Skaara and Sarah Gardner), they don't fully blend. But they do partially. Maybe Qetesh blended more than others? but not enough that she couldn't be removed without hurting Vala. I'm thinking that might also explain Amaunet, maybe she let herself blend with Sha're a little too much which might explain her reaction in "Secrets". But it's too dangerous for a Goa'uld to become too blended with their host, the last thing they need is to start developing feelings for their enemy humans, lol! which is probably why Amaunet reacted by trying to kill Daniel in "Forever in a Day".

                  But yeah, I think that since the Goa'uld aren't as much a threat anymore and the Ori aren't gonna be hunting them specifically over other humans (I haven't seen Ark of Truth yet, I'm not sure how things are resolved there). So some of them should totally settle down and start replenishing their population, lol! I wonder if Jolinar/Rosha and Martouf/Lantash wanted to have kids but knew it was too much of a bad idea?
                  Yes, there is the "I can't just cure you and leave you - to do that would probably kill us both" which Selmak says to Jacob, before they blend. That Jolinar says she would try to leave Sam, but that it would be dangerous, I take as proof that she didn't blend as fully with Sam as Tok'ra normally do, simply because she expected to maybe have to leave again.

                  About the Tok'ra children - technically we don't KNOW that the Tok'ra don't have a whole bunch of them off on some safe world - perhaps Rosha/Jolinar and Martouf/Lantash (and other couples - quadrouples? like them) already has produced several potential future hosts, but since the Tok'ra know the Goa'uld would be out to get them, they didn't even tell their allies about them.

                  -Skadi
                  sigpic
                  Smilies made by Roeskva (http://www.tokra.dk/smilies.html)

                  "Hear this. The days of the Goa'uld System Lords are numbered. Tell them that I died with hope. My death only feeds the fire that burns strong in the Tok'ra." (Jolinar, "In the Line of Duty")

                  Comment


                    #69
                    I don't see the Tok'ra as the sorts to have children...they're very focused in their goal of defeating the Goa'uld and all personal relationships are on the side, so I don't see them committing to having children, especially with no more symbiotes for them. Who would want to watch their children die while they lived on for centuries?

                    ~Friendshipping (among others) the two most awesome women of Stargate.
                    ~My Stargate fanfic can be found on my Livejournal

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                      #70
                      I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive - they could do both, especially since they seem to be somewhat communal - there would always be someone to take care of the children. Besides, it would get them some of the hosts they need, and they do need hosts, since they said that the symbiotes often died with the host because a new host could not be found.

                      Another thing is that the children would inherit two of their parents genetic memory (they would have four parents, two human, two symbiotes - since the memory is genetic memory, the symbiotes must somehow also provide some DNA to the the children) and thus want to fight the Goa'uld, just like the symbiotes - they would grow up to be useful members of the resistance.

                      I just thought of something. Looking at Shifu (son of Sha're/Amounet and Apophis/Apophis's host), I wonder if the DNA which gives the harsesis the genetic memory also made him inherit other traits. He doesn't look remotely like his human parents, so I am starting to think he also inherited much of his looks etc. from Amounet/Apophis (how fortunate that most of that manifested itself differently in a human than in a symbiote, or he would have looked...odd)

                      -Skadi
                      sigpic
                      Smilies made by Roeskva (http://www.tokra.dk/smilies.html)

                      "Hear this. The days of the Goa'uld System Lords are numbered. Tell them that I died with hope. My death only feeds the fire that burns strong in the Tok'ra." (Jolinar, "In the Line of Duty")

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                        #71
                        Originally posted by Skadi View Post
                        I don't see those two things as mutually exclusive - they could do both, especially since they seem to be somewhat communal - there would always be someone to take care of the children. Besides, it would get them some of the hosts they need, and they do need hosts, since they said that the symbiotes often died with the host because a new host could not be found.

                        Another thing is that the children would inherit two of their parents genetic memory (they would have four parents, two human, two symbiotes - since the memory is genetic memory, the symbiotes must somehow also provide some DNA to the the children) and thus want to fight the Goa'uld, just like the symbiotes - they would grow up to be useful members of the resistance.

                        I just thought of something. Looking at Shifu (son of Sha're/Amounet and Apophis/Apophis's host), I wonder if the DNA which gives the harsesis the genetic memory also made him inherit other traits. He doesn't look remotely like his human parents, so I am starting to think he also inherited much of his looks etc. from Amounet/Apophis (how fortunate that most of that manifested itself differently in a human than in a symbiote, or he would have looked...odd)

                        -Skadi
                        Yes, there is the genetic memory - the kids probably would wish to join the Tok'ra - and get a symbiote, both because of the memories and because they would have grown up with the Tok'ra, certainly thinking of them as good guys and in no way fearing them. They would want to be part of their fight.

                        Shifu...(googles for pic of him, Sha're, and Apophis). Yes, you're right. Either Amaunet or Apophis obviously has dominant genes, because he doesn't resemble either of the hosts I agree - good thing he didn't get fins or something

                        -Snotr
                        sigpic Avatar, and icons in sig by Luciana

                        Favorite love-dodecagon:
                        (See http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....postcount=2238)
                        Lantash/Jolinar/Martouf/Sam/Thor/Jack/Kanan/Tea'lc/Junior/Freya/Daniel/Anise

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                          #72
                          Originally posted by Skadi View Post
                          About the Tok'ra children - technically we don't KNOW that the Tok'ra don't have a whole bunch of them off on some safe world - perhaps Rosha/Jolinar and Martouf/Lantash (and other couples - quadrouples? like them) already has produced several potential future hosts, but since the Tok'ra know the Goa'uld would be out to get them, they didn't even tell their allies about them.
                          sounds like a fic in the works

                          Do they have a shortage of hosts or symbiotes??

                          Hey, you might remember I mentioned that my sg1 mary sue would be a nerdy techy from the SGC who joins the Tokra because she thinks they're cool? I drew a picture of her

                          http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/My...y-Sue-80199789

                          *finally adds thread to subscription list*

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                            #73
                            Originally posted by nebulan View Post
                            sounds like a fic in the works

                            Do they have a shortage of hosts or symbiotes??

                            Hey, you might remember I mentioned that my sg1 mary sue would be a nerdy techy from the SGC who joins the Tokra because she thinks they're cool? I drew a picture of her

                            http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/My...y-Sue-80199789

                            *finally adds thread to subscription list*
                            If I could write, then I would like to make that plot bunny into a story, yes. I hope someone else will?

                            They probably still have a shortage of hosts, but after all the Tok'ra that has been killed lately, they probably don't have that many symbiotes either. But they originally said in Tok'ra I:


                            Spoiler:
                            MARTOUF: That's why our numbers don't grow large enough to defeat the massive forces aligned with System Lords.
                            SAM: Zero or negative population growth. Since you won't take new hosts by force, most of the time the Goa'uld dies with the host.
                            YOSUF: And this is what is about to happen to Selmak.
                            MARTOUF: Unless one of you wishes to volunteer to serve as a host.


                            Sounds as if they had a queen at that point. Maybe that's something the writers forgot/changed later. Also - a bit inconsiderate of Sam to say Goa'uld, but neither Yosuuf or Martouf complains - probably they know she is a bit confused as to the difference still?

                            nebulan - I looked at your picture. It's great! You are good at drawing. I like your idea with 'human + symbiote = Tok'ra' - it's cute.

                            -Skadi
                            sigpic
                            Smilies made by Roeskva (http://www.tokra.dk/smilies.html)

                            "Hear this. The days of the Goa'uld System Lords are numbered. Tell them that I died with hope. My death only feeds the fire that burns strong in the Tok'ra." (Jolinar, "In the Line of Duty")

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Sort of a continuation of the harsesis discussion. Just a strange thought I had yesterday, bear with me - if the children of two hosts receive some percentage of their DNA from the symbiotes, would it then be possible to eventually get symbiotes?
                              Say, if you put symbiotes in the harsesis'es and again in their children and so on for a long time - would the offspring eventually be mostly symbiotes? If that is the case then maybe the Tok'ra could get more symbiotes that way (I realise that unless the offspring looks human until a certain percentage of the DNA is symbiote-DNA, and looks symbiote after that, you would get some in-between-forms that are kinda funky looking, but lets ignore that for now).

                              I now see a family reunion with both human-looking and symbiote-looking attendees - and one of the humans presenting a symbiote as his cousin or something... Yes, I'm weird, I know...it just made me laugh.

                              -Snotr
                              sigpic Avatar, and icons in sig by Luciana

                              Favorite love-dodecagon:
                              (See http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....postcount=2238)
                              Lantash/Jolinar/Martouf/Sam/Thor/Jack/Kanan/Tea'lc/Junior/Freya/Daniel/Anise

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                                #75
                                Originally posted by nebulan View Post
                                sounds like a fic in the works

                                Do they have a shortage of hosts or symbiotes??

                                Hey, you might remember I mentioned that my sg1 mary sue would be a nerdy techy from the SGC who joins the Tokra because she thinks they're cool? I drew a picture of her

                                http://nebulan.deviantart.com/art/My...y-Sue-80199789

                                *finally adds thread to subscription list*
                                Hey - nice pic nebulan. I especially like the symbiote - it actually looks cute

                                Originally posted by Snotr View Post
                                Sort of a continuation of the harsesis discussion. Just a strange thought I had yesterday, bear with me - if the children of two hosts receive some percentage of their DNA from the symbiotes, would it then be possible to eventually get symbiotes?
                                Say, if you put symbiotes in the harsesis'es and again in their children and so on for a long time - would the offspring eventually be mostly symbiotes? If that is the case then maybe the Tok'ra could get more symbiotes that way (I realise that unless the offspring looks human until a certain percentage of the DNA is symbiote-DNA, and looks symbiote after that, you would get some in-between-forms that are kinda funky looking, but lets ignore that for now).

                                I now see a family reunion with both human-looking and symbiote-looking attendees - and one of the humans presenting a symbiote as his cousin or something... Yes, I'm weird, I know...it just made me laugh.

                                -Snotr
                                That is...slightly disturbing *lol* - but it might work. As long as it's like you said, with the kids looking human until a certain percentage is symbiote, and then looking symbiote, then I don't think it would be a problem for anyone, and it might solve the shortage of Tok'ra. I wonder if somehow they could get a queen this way?

                                Do we know why some symbiotes become queens?
                                Is it genetic (like for humans - dependent on chromosomes), or environmental (because of temperature/feed/hormones/etc. like for many reptiles, amphibians, fish, and insects), or something else entirely? Can the queen control how many larvae becomes queens or is it random?
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