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  1. #81
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    They don't carry them, they are flanked by a certain number of cruisers, from two to three, in some cases, and can grab them with their big docking/boarding claws, but they don't store them inside.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    I think that the attach themselves to the outer hull-maybe in that hollow bit in the middle of the hive-(Like shown on the Daedalus schematic with the big blue hive with the Orange 304 in the centre)

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    This is a side track but bear with me, What was the Standard make up of a Battlestar Group?? A battle group of Hives would be around 5-8 w/ 10+ criusers wouldnt it??

  4. #84
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by Quickoz View Post
    This is a side track but bear with me, What was the Standard make up of a Battlestar Group?? A battle group of Hives would be around 5-8 w/ 10+ criusers wouldnt it??
    A Battlestar group? We've never observed such a thing. All we can know is the amount of fighters and bombers a given class of ship may have at a certain time.

    Same for hives, there's no military fixed number of hives to constitue a given formation of ships.

  5. #85
    First Lieutenant Ed's Avatar
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    Post Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    Which means they'll have hard times threatening a hiveship, especially in the case of nukes being weaker by 2 OOMs.



    Which can be shot down by the Darts.
    Which would be mascred by vipers first

    It depends if you want to consider all the ships a hiveship can carry. You know that we've also seen another type of Wraith ship which may have greater abilities than the Darts.
    What scout ships they only carry scout ships and darts



    Nothing proves that Wraith accuracy for FTL jumps is poor.
    If it was acurate enugh that it could be used tacticaly im sure they would have done it in the seige Wraith FTL is poor in general they have to make cool down stops

    only SG race that uses FTL tacticaly is the lost tribe.
    In a case where once again the Pegasus is given the luxury of observing the enemy and deciding when to attack, and do it by surprise.
    I reject this scenario because it's only cooked to give the Pegasus an upper hand in a biased scenario.
    Well actualy this is relavant in any scenario except one where they meet each other within the hives wepon range which would favour the hive a long range battle favours the pegasus

  6. #86
    Lieutenant General thekillman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    look say we're in the void, and a mysterious time/space/dimension rift appears, and a hive and the BSP emerge. they are just outside weaponsrage. both are alone xcept the ships they are known to carry.


    thats a scenario. tell me, which wins. me? hive. just opens up with a volley, blasting the pegasus to utter hell

  7. #87
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by eps200 View Post
    Which would be mascred by vipers first
    No quite. There's no evidence that under a hundred Vipers at best, could take care of the whole swarm of Darts an 11 km long ship could contain.
    Plus the Wraith soldiers are not as single minded as the Raiders.

    What scout ships they only carry scout ships and darts
    You answered your own question.

    If it was acurate enugh that it could be used tacticaly im sure they would have done it in the seige Wraith FTL is poor in general they have to make cool down stops
    That the engines need to cool down says absolutely nothing about their accuracy. Be All My Sins Remember'd has proven that despite the ships' sizes, they just as accurate as the others to allow a coordinated fleet jump in orbit of a planet, a very few kms away from the enemy fleet.

    only SG race that uses FTL tacticaly is the lost tribe.
    Because they wanted to do it quickly. They still appeared quite far from the city, and they had the ability to penetrate the city's shield. The Wraith did not.

    You can also count the Tau'ri, when using the unstable hyperdrive of a F-302 to fly under the shield of Anubis' ship.

    The Goa'uld, who have been able to use a scout ship to fly an asteroid through Earth when they barely had enough energy to do so, or jump out of hyperspace right on top of their target.

    Well actualy this is relavant in any scenario except one where they meet each other within the hives wepon range which would favour the hive a long range battle favours the pegasus
    Not at all, since the hiveship would know where its target is as well, and would jump appropriately to get this target into weapon range. It would get as comedic as the Colonial Raptors arriving at a location where the hiveship is not present anymore, only to realize that once they jump back, the Pegasus is just a bunch of debris.

    And please, try to type correct sentences.

  8. #88
    First Lieutenant Ed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Oragahn View Post
    No quite. There's no evidence that under
    a hundred Vipers at best, could take care of the whole swarm of Darts an 11 km long ship could contain.
    Plus the Wraith soldiers are not as single minded as the Raiders.
    one pegasus caries 120 vipers at full strengh (we are assuming both ships at full strengh?) and looking at a dart "swarm" from the queen the wriath dont deploy that many in one go also very little of a hive is dart bays
    see cross section origionaly from mgm
    Spoiler:


    The vipers dont have to kill all the darts just get some raptors or nuke equiped vipers past the dart screen the screen isnt all that deep

    You answered your own question.
    Scout ships havent even been shown to have wepons let alone be good in combat.



    That the engines need to cool down says absolutely nothing about their accuracy. Be All My Sins Remember'd has proven that despite the ships' sizes, they just as accurate as the others to allow a coordinated fleet jump in orbit of a planet, a very few kms away from the enemy fleet.
    It says alot about the FTL tech colonial ftl is so good the speed of the nav computer is the limiting factor.


    Because they wanted to do it quickly. They still appeared quite far from the city, and they had the ability to penetrate the city's shield. The Wraith did not.
    If they had acurate hyperdrive they cold have flown suicide scout ships past the atlantis sheild

    You can also count the Tau'ri, when using the unstable hyperdrive of a F-302 to fly under the shield of Anubis' ship.
    Fair point

    The Goa'uld, who have been able to use a scout ship to fly an asteroid through Earth when they barely had enough energy to do so, or jump out of hyperspace right on top of their target.
    No SG1 flew through earth and thats easy its just a straight line past earth no precision required.


    Not at all, since the hiveship would know where its target is as well, and would jump appropriately to get this target into weapon range. It would get as comedic as the Colonial Raptors arriving at a location where the hiveship is not present anymore, only to realize that once they jump back, the Pegasus is just a bunch of debris.
    Hives take time to fire see last man and your biasing the scenario Hive knows where pegasus is.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Darts have been able to remove ZedPMs from the Asuran city with their culling beam-could they not start taking chunks out of a Battlestar????????????

  10. #90
    First Lieutenant Ed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    They wouldnt even get close have you seen its flack barier and darts can be killed by light machine guns.

  11. #91
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by jnadreth View Post
    Darts have been able to remove ZedPMs from the Asuran city with their culling beam-could they not start taking chunks out of a Battlestar????????????
    I can picture them at least culling the nukes and deculling them towards the Battlestar.

    Never happened though in SGA, so forget about it (never how obvious of a tactic it would be).

  12. #92
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by eps200 View Post
    one pegasus caries 120 vipers at full strengh (we are assuming both ships at full strengh?) and looking at a dart "swarm" from the queen the wriath dont deploy that many in one go also very little of a hive is dart bays
    see cross section origionaly from mgm
    Spoiler:
    Relying on those cross sections is poor. If anything, the latest SGA episode has demonstrated how just fanon with an MGM stamp that stuff is. There are some good things, but no reveleration for anyone who's spend time in this forum.

    What I do is base my reasonning on the pictures, notably those of the vast caverns where ships land (see when humans and Genii board a hiveship).

    The vipers dont have to kill all the darts just get some raptors or nuke equiped vipers past the dart screen the screen isnt all that deep
    I say it's thick enough to deal with those Raptors and Fighters, and again, it's much likely that their nukes will fail to deal significant damage.
    Until the Pegasus engages the hiveship directly, there's nothing good to expect safe Hollywood type of luck for the Colonials.

    Scout ships havent even been shown to have wepons let alone be good in combat.
    Before I sleep had two types of small ships attacking Lantean vessels around Atlantis.
    Aurora featured a small Wraith ship adopting an agressive stance against Daedalus. There's little reason to believe that the class in question would have no weapon, considering that even those farming Darts have one.

    It says alot about the FTL tech
    It only says it is strained after long trips, that's all. You're mixing accuracy with stamina.

    colonial ftl is so good the speed of the nav computer is the limiting factor.
    It takes time for a massive ship to plan a jump, especially if it has to be accurate. By that time, the hiveship would have already jumped to get the colonial ship within weapon range, which is a couple of thousand kilometers top from all we've seen. The ship is fairly large and not very mobile.
    The Pegasus has the agility of a beached whale.

    If they had acurate hyperdrive they cold have flown suicide scout ships past the atlantis sheild.
    I think you'll need to look for another reason, because even the humans and their Asgard FTLs only managed to use it once.
    Since I think the Wraith are not that stupid, and this actually applies to any decent and FTL capable space faring foe, I'm largely convinced that in Stargate, it's possible to emit a field in subspace that blocks FTL, or/and that shields have a shadow effect in subspace that block FTL as well, but this requires power and sometimes, when a crew thinks there's no danger of an FTL shield intrusion, this feature is not activated.
    For example, Anubis attacking a Tau'ri alpha base, and not expecting that such a small craft as a F-302 could represent a menace to his ship (explaining the very Death Gliders sent) let make a FTL jump under the shield.

    No SG1 flew through earth and thats easy its just a straight line past earth no precision required.
    Check out the episode, Carter was making calculations with the computer, because they had limited power so she had to use only what was needed, and not plan a too long trip.

    Hives take time to fire see last man
    Like Battlestars. They don't all start shooting the second they spot an enemy, I'm sorry.

    ... and your biasing the scenario Hive knows where pegasus is.
    No, that's called balancing, because thus far you're positing that the Pegasus knows where the hiveship is and can plan this and that, make all sorts of fancy tactical jumps, know how to attack, and the hiveship just sits there, which is nothing more than a 100% biased scenario in favour of BSP.
    So I evened the situation, and the hiveship would be able to jump before the BSP.

    With greater ability to prepare an FTL jump, the hiveship can dictate where the battle occurs.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Battlestars are quite agile for their size. And don't assume the Pegasus's FTL calculation ability is slow just because Galactica's is. Pegasus is newer with much more advanced computers. The Pegasus is also more armoured than the Galactica. At the Battle of New Caprica the Pegasus was only in critical condition after enduring ten or so minutes of multiple basestars launching every nuke or other missile they had at it. It only died and took two basestars with it because that was necessary for the storyline.

  14. #94
    Brigadier General Buba uognarf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeldaTheSwordsman View Post
    Battlestars are quite agile for their size. And don't assume the Pegasus's FTL calculation ability is slow just because Galactica's is. Pegasus is newer with much more advanced computers. The Pegasus is also more armoured than the Galactica. At the Battle of New Caprica the Pegasus was only in critical condition after enduring ten or so minutes of multiple basestars launching every nuke or other missile they had at it. It only died and took two basestars with it because that was necessary for the storyline.
    Basestar weapons are significantly inferior to that of a Hive ship. Pegasus is out gunned by orders of magnitude it can not win.
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  15. #95
    First Lieutenant Ed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    Basestar weapons are significantly inferior to that of a Hive ship. Pegasus is out gunned by orders of magnitude it can not win.
    If Pegasus fights as a carrier it can its comanders are also far better than any wraith crew

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by eps200 View Post
    If Pegasus fights as a carrier it can its comanders are also far better than any wraith crew
    Its fighters weapons are even worse so they'll do very little damage to the Hive ship and have to contend with many times their numbers of darts. Thats assuming the Pegasus knows its outmatched and decides to use fighters...There's also nothing to stop the Hive jumping so its right on top of Pegasus and blowing it to hell.

    Hive wins, no contest.
    Robert Jastrow (self-proclaimed agnostic): "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

  17. #97
    First Lieutenant Finger13's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by Buba uognarf View Post
    Its fighters weapons are even worse so they'll do very little damage to the Hive ship and have to contend with many times their numbers of darts. Thats assuming the Pegasus knows its outmatched and decides to use fighters...There's also nothing to stop the Hive jumping so its right on top of Pegasus and blowing it to hell.

    Hive wins, no contest.
    Have you seen the massive swarms of Raiders that the Vipers almost always have to engage? From what we have seen, there are at least as many Raiders launched from Basestars as there are from Hives. The Vipers are always outnumbered by significant amounts.

    And the Galactica ALWAYS launches fighters, even for something as innocuous as a single Raider. If the Pegasus came across a ship 11km's long, it would certainly be launching all of its Vipers.

    In Razor when the Pegasus is ambushed at the Cylon staging ground they had to fight 15 squadrons of Raiders and were outnumbered 4 to 1. Despite this, they still successfully destroyed their target albeit at a loss of 32 Vipers and 61 damaged.

    What it really comes down to is how long the Pegasus could withstand bombardment from the Hive. I'm not even going to bother arguing this fact, as everyone is using irrelevant figures that can't be proven. But suffice to say, the Pegasus could survive at least a minute, maybe less. If they lasted at least several minutes in Exodus Part II with what, 20 people on board? Then I think it's absurd that the Pegasus would just be cut in half like butter by the Hive. Even the Daedalus can withstand short bursts of fire from Hives, and they are not only much smaller than the Pegasus, but don't appear to be very heavily armoured either.

    And the system failure's that the Daedalus experienced after a few hits from that Hive are arbitrary. Systems go offline in Stargate for the stupidest of reasons. When the Daedalus is fired upon in Allies, it takes about a dozen hits and is then still able to raise shields and carry on the fight.

    Damage is far more consistent in BSG than it is in Stargate. The Hives weapons differ from battle to battle. The explosions on the surface of that planet that you were using earlier don't match the explosions on the Daedalus in either situation where it was hit without shields.

    This whole conversation is a waste of time since it can't be proven, but what irks me is the attitude of those saying that the Hive would win. If the Pegasus could survive for even half a minute, all its Raptors and Vipers would have to do is get off of the ship, jump to encircle the Hive, and open up with all of their nukes, coupled with the Pegasus' main guns.

    The Darts would not be able to stop enemy fighters that instantaneously appear and let loose their weapons.

    As for the yields of the nukes in BSG, it's impossible to say. No, they aren't as powerful as Stargate nukes, but it's retarded to believe that every shot from a Hive is equivalent to BSG's nukes, whether they be fighter-based or ship-based.

    If that was the case, there's no way that the Daedalus' hull could withstand a nuke. Once the enemy gets through the shields, there is little stopping them.

    It would be a close fight. Look at WW2. The most heavily armoured ships with the hugest guns were no match for a weak carrier's air wing. Yeah, the Hive has darts. But they aren't good fighters, and only serve as fodder.

    Darts are not good fighters, no better than Raiders. Add to this the fact that the Pegasus is not a thinly armoured carrier relying on other ships to protect it, and it's ridiculous to automatically say that the Hive would win.

    And besides, if both ships were going to be jumping around, there would be no battle, as neither would know where the other ship was going to be. They would just keep dancing around each other.

    I would say go by what you see in the show, not what you think the ship can do, since that is complete speculation. But you can't even go by the show with Stargate, since it's inconsistent.

    But if everyone is keen to jump all over BSG saying that it can't use tactics that are always used in their battles, then why should we assume that the Hive will do smart things? Since everytime we see a Wraith Hive ship in battle, they use no tactics and are ridiculously stupid. "Oh no, it's another Hive. I will simply pull up alongside and we will bombard each other to see who wins".

    It's been proven time and time again that the Wraith are perfectly content to sit and do nothing, whereas in BSG, it's been proven time and time again, that tactics are consistently at work. I mean, when the Wraith sit there shooting each other, the VERY least they could do would be to roll so that they aren't just cutting a hole into the same spot. The Pegasus does this in The Captain's Hand to protect a damaged section.

    There is just no reason to assume that the Wraith would do anything but sit still and allow the Pegasus to manoeuvrer in close, or to stay out of weapons range long enough to have its Vipers and Raptors engage the Hive.

    And if you say that the Hive wouldn't be that stupid, go back and watch the show.

  18. #98
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by Finger13 View Post
    Have you seen the massive swarms of Raiders that the Vipers almost always have to engage? From what we have seen, there are at least as many Raiders launched from Basestars as there are from Hives. The Vipers are always outnumbered by significant amounts.
    My personnal count from the new CGI model of Basestars (which appear somehow a tad smaller in scope, but that may just be me) is 402 Raiders, stored near the ship's core, in the outer hull's slots.
    That's not counting the ship's vast hangars.

    And the Galactica ALWAYS launches fighters, even for something as innocuous as a single Raider. If the Pegasus came across a ship 11km's long, it would certainly be launching all of its Vipers.

    In Razor when the Pegasus is ambushed at the Cylon staging ground they had to fight 15 squadrons of Raiders and were outnumbered 4 to 1. Despite this, they still successfully destroyed their target albeit at a loss of 32 Vipers and 61 damaged.
    They're launched as Interceptors, meant to defend ships from ramming attacks, nuke shooting and Cylon boarding. They're never scrambled with nuclear ordnance.

    In such a scenario, those fighters will be meaningless.
    And once again, Cylon Raiders are like beasts. Or pets. Brutal and single minded.
    Wraith clones are still Wraith, with Wraith brains.

    What it really comes down to is how long the Pegasus could withstand bombardment from the Hive. I'm not even going to bother arguing this fact, as everyone is using irrelevant figures that can't be proven.
    That's false. We have very good references for both universes. The Colonials never demonstrated having a firepower surpassing the Cylons' firepower, and we know yields for the top Cylon nuclear warheads.
    We also can observe what a hiveship can do to the surface of a planet with, at best, working at only 50% of what's it's capable, and that's not counting the fact that it totally depends on what a mark VIII is, which as I detailed earlier on, would have much more reasons to be a 1~1.2 GT warhead than one around 26 megatons.

    And when you also consider that there's no evidence Pegasus can launch nukes on the blink of an eye, but if it is like for Galactica, it must follow procedures, then there's even less contest.

    But suffice to say, the Pegasus could survive at least a minute, maybe less.
    We've seen a hiveship's firing around three to five cannons per second. Pegasus survived because beyond the initial nukes, they were getting spammed with less powerful weapons.

    Then I think it's absurd that the Pegasus would just be cut in half like butter by the Hive. Even the Daedalus can withstand short bursts of fire from Hives, and they are not only much smaller than the Pegasus, but don't appear to be very heavily armoured either.
    Hit by bolts of unknown yield, hitting a ship covered with heavy armour made of trinium (100 times stronger than steal, a hundred times lighter) and much likely uses structure integrity fields (there were present on Prometheus).

    And the system failure's that the Daedalus experienced after a few hits from that Hive are arbitrary. Systems go offline in Stargate for the stupidest of reasons. When the Daedalus is fired upon in Allies, it takes about a dozen hits and is then still able to raise shields and carry on the fight.
    Hyperdrives often fail, but at least in Stargate, it's rather logical since they're very exposed.

    This whole conversation is a waste of time since it can't be proven, but what irks me is the attitude of those saying that the Hive would win.
    If it's a waste of time, there's no reason to be irked by such claims, and even less reasons to continue posting here.

  19. #99
    First Lieutenant Ed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    It would be a close fight. Look at WW2. The most heavily armoured ships with the hugest guns were no match for a weak carrier's air wing. Yeah, the Hive has darts. But they aren't good fighters, and only serve as fodder.

    Darts are not good fighters, no better than Raiders. Add to this the fact that the Pegasus is not a thinly armoured carrier relying on other ships to protect it, and it's ridiculous to automatically say that the Hive would win.
    This is what the people saying the hive would win are ignoring
    The pegasus can jump faster than a hive it can actualy move noticably at sublight basicly its down to range crier warfare is normaly pointles because of sheild but hives are not sheilded and so are vunerable to fighter atacks

    Its all down to range and how much they know if its just they both jump into the same place within wepons rang ehive wins in any planed engament or one at significant rane pegasus can win though not as decivly as the hive would at close range

  20. #100
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hive Ship Vs Battlestar Pegasus

    Quote Originally Posted by eps200 View Post
    This is what the people saying the hive would win are ignoring
    Not at all.

    The pegasus can jump faster than a hive
    Prove it. When a Wraith wants a ship to go into hyperspace, the ship goes, it's a fast act.

    it can actualy move noticably at sublight
    Linear acceleration. When it comes down to angular accelerations, hiveships fare better, despite being terribly larger.

    And I'm yet to see evidence of Battlestars being capable of leaving a planet's surface. Again.

    basicly its down to range crier warfare
    No because the hiveship would jump to attack its target with its own weapons, since hiveships do the job, not Darts. The hiveship will not accept the carrier scenario simply because it's not the way it works and operates, even if it could if the writers had deemed it worth to put FTL capable bombers on hiveships.

    is normaly pointles because of sheild but hives are not sheilded and so are vunerable to fighter atacks
    Which have been rated to nuclear ordnance that would hardly pose a menace to the Wraith hull, but never mind, it's not like such evidence was already provided...

    Its all down to range and how much they know if its just they both jump into the same place within wepons rang ehive wins in any planed engament or one at significant rane pegasus can win though not as decivly as the hive would at close range
    The hiveship has simply zero interest accepting a carrier scenario. It will attack on its own and blast the Pegasus in no time flat, while there's a large chance that the Pegasus will launch its Raptors at coordinates where the hiveship would not be present anymore.

    Now could you please consider those points, pay attention to both shows, instead of merely ignoring them and repeating yourself?

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