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    More Wraith character development

    I am very pleased with the sort of development writers have given Wraith characters like Michael, and Todd. But even in the earlier seasons, we saw a wide range of excellent examples of Wraith 'personality' - from Steve's dignity and conceit, to the Defiant One's savagery, to the high-minded, high-living Wraith in Condemned. These, along with well-developed characters like Todd and Michael, have made the Wraith the most intriguing characters in the show. Well, at least for me.

    I fear that TPTB feel the Wraith are expendable, and will throw them away in the next season or two in favor of a new enemy. I hope that doesn't happen, for in the Wraith we have a wonderful study of conflict - and conflict is the driving force behind all of your best fictional characters.

    Personally, I love the conflict that exists in the Wraith, and would hope to see further exploration of it. They maintain a self-controlled, somewhat dignified image, while inside struggle with a constant hunger. Perhaps Steve - as he appeared to meditate while in captivity - gave us a glimpse of how Wraith deal with their hunger and overall frustration when unable to freely feed. It would be interesting to see more of this...to see how Wraith fight any display of weakness when they are hungry...until they are unable to fight it any longer. We've seen a little of this with Todd and Elia, but I could certainly handle more.

    There is also the beautiful contrast in them between their refined human traits and their animalistic Wraith cravings and behavior. Again, a very interesting study - the inner 'animal/man' struggle that works so well in the development of a character. The Wraith do not struggle with the 'animal' - or Wraith - inside, instead they embrace it as their nature, their identity. No, their struggle is against what they perceive to be the human weaknesses. Since it has not been fully explored, it would be nice to see some of this turned around - to see some Wraith (not altered ones like Michael) embrace their humanity, and work on from there. Todd, in part, has shown us this, but we still are not aware of his true intentions, and for the most part, he still seems quite pleased - and proud - to be Wraith.

    I think we've only seen the tip of the Wraith iceberg, and my hope is to see much, much more. I imagine so many possibilities for these characters, and hope they will continue to be developed with care in the show. I think some fans can now see them as something other than 'evil'. True, some individual Wraith may have an evil streak, but as a whole the Wraith are only seeking to satisfy their hunger. They are condemned solely upon what they are at birth, and nothing else, even before they feed upon their first human meal. It is something truly out of their control. It is - their nature.

    das
    Last edited by dasNdanger; 05 February 2008, 07:59 PM.
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    #2
    Yes more Wraith But I have read that the human kill Wraith.... (Ronon and this sholvah kill Wraith)

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      #3
      Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
      I think some fans can now see them as something other than 'evil'. True, some individual Wraith may have an evil streak, but as a whole the Wraith are only seeking to satisfy their hunger. They are condemned solely upon what they are at birth, and nothing else, even before they feed upon their first human meal. It is something truly out of their control. It is - their nature.
      And they're also searching for a means to ascend, hmm?
      Or maybe a Wraith that only feeds on the evil? Like a vampire Batman?

      It would be great to see more things Wraith, more political intrigue that doesn't always boil down to 'must form alliance with Atlantis'.
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      More fun @ Spoofgate!

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        #4
        Originally posted by nx01a View Post
        And they're also searching for a means to ascend, hmm?
        This would work. I have thought about the Wraith ascending, and think it's a great idea...as long as they still exist in some way in the show.

        Or maybe a Wraith that only feeds on the evil? Like a vampire Batman?
        LOL...yeah. Not sure that would work - thing is, Wraith need a continuous food source, and after a while, they'd run out of evil Wraith. So...I'd like to see them find some way of getting around the food problem, but NEVER lose their taste for humans, even if they eventually gain nutrition and sustenance from regular food.

        It would be great to see more things Wraith, more political intrigue that doesn't always boil down to 'must form alliance with Atlantis'.
        This is a good point. Although I like the brief alliance the humans and Wraith had, I wouldn't want that same thing all the time (unless a very small faction of Wraith allied themselves with the Lanteans on a regular basis). But I like the 'political intrigue' in Condemned - making deals with the Devil, as it were. Also, I'd like to see the Wraith have the upper hand in some of the political goings on - instead of being told by the Lanteans what to do, have it the other way around.

        One thing I loved about the very first Wraith appearance was Teyla's comment that they 'have no need to explain themselves'. I would like a return to that...to see the Wraith TELL humans what is going to happen (when on friendly terms), without explanation, instead of it being the other way around. It would be interesting to see how the Lanteans react to such a thing...taking orders from the 'enemy', even though he's your ally at the time.

        Anyway...yeah - political intrigue without it just being about alliances...that would be good...both within the Wraith 'government', and perhaps between Wraith and other worlds.


        das
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          #5
          Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
          Wraith need a continuous food source, and after a while, they'd run out of evil Wraith.
          I meant evil humans.
          Like a planet's corporal punishment system.
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          More fun @ Spoofgate!

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            #6
            Originally posted by nx01a
            I meant evil humans.
            Like a planet's corporal punishment system.
            OH!! PLENTY of those to go around!!


            das
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              #7
              I'd like some more development on Wraith way of thinking. I'd like to know if the Wraith ever looked for a different food source (we know they tried to make it more efficient) or tried to limit the size of their population so they didn't have to hibernate. I mean, they feed upon almost all the humans in the PG and then hibernate because there is not enough food. At the same time they prevent humans from development which slows the growth of human population (no advanced medicine etc) and create clone Wraiths. They, in fact, act against themselves and civil wars seem inevitable. Were there (or are) any Wraith that would think about the future, if yes - what they attempted to do? Or maybe they they like hibernating (or have to)? Why don't they kill the hibernated cousins so that there was more food for themselves?

              I just want some stories from their point of view. I hope you know what I mean...

              Icarium

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                #8
                I want see more about the Culture and Social live in a Hive.
                What the Wraith do and stuff like that and if they have new enemies...
                I want see that the Wraith have a alliance between the humans and the Wraith...

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                  They are condemned solely upon what they are at birth, and nothing else, even before they feed upon their first human meal. It is something truly out of their control. It is - their nature.

                  das
                  Once upon a time, a Scorpion walked the banks of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly, a Fox came out of the woods and walked up to the water's edge.

                  "Fox," the Scorpion said, "We both want to get to the other side. Carry me on your back and we can both make it."

                  "No," the Fox replied, "You'll sting me."

                  "I won't sting you," the Scorpion replied, "If I did, then we would both drown."

                  So the Fox picked up the Scorpion and put him on his back and began swimming across the river. Halfway across, Scorpion stung him. Fox looked up at Scorpion and as he began to sink, poison flowing through his veins, he asked, "Why did you do that? Now we are both going to die."

                  The Scorpion replied, "I'm sorry. It's my nature."

                  The point being, while I might not call Wraith evil, I am still comfortable destroying them. Sure, they're sentient life forms. But they're also predators whose only food is my species. That is not the sort of thing you can make peace with. Ever.

                  A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
                  This makes what they do unforgivable.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Icarium
                    I'd like some more development on Wraith way of thinking. I'd like to know if the Wraith ever looked for a different food source (we know they tried to make it more efficient) or tried to limit the size of their population so they didn't have to hibernate. I mean, they feed upon almost all the humans in the PG and then hibernate because there is not enough food. At the same time they prevent humans from development which slows the growth of human population (no advanced medicine etc) and create clone Wraiths. They, in fact, act against themselves and civil wars seem inevitable. Were there (or are) any Wraith that would think about the future, if yes - what they attempted to do? Or maybe they they like hibernating (or have to)? Why don't they kill the hibernated cousins so that there was more food for themselves?

                    I just want some stories from their point of view. I hope you know what I mean...

                    Icarium
                    Yes, I know exactly what you mean, and I agree. It would be very nice to see inside their lives a bit more...

                    I'd like to see what sort of 'spirituality' - if any - they have. We have seen Steve meditating, we know they have 'worshippers' - but do they, themselves, have any sort of spirituality.

                    Also would like to see Wraith interacting on a social level. Do they have any sort of recreation/relaxation/entertainment?

                    Originally posted by Degilwen
                    I want see more about the Culture and Social live in a Hive.
                    What the Wraith do and stuff like that and if they have new enemies...
                    I want see that the Wraith have a alliance between the humans and the Wraith...
                    Again - yes - stuff like that would all be good. I'd like to see more positive interaction with humans that doesn't lead to their death at the end.

                    Originally posted by Scyld
                    ....The Scorpion replied, "I'm sorry. It's my nature."

                    The point being, while I might not call Wraith evil, I am still comfortable destroying them. Sure, they're sentient life forms. But they're also predators whose only food is my species. That is not the sort of thing you can make peace with. Ever.

                    A Wraith is actually far worse than a murderer. A murderer typically does what he does for reasons of passion. For the sake of hatred, or rage, or for some other pathetic emotional reason. The murderer understands the value of life, because he empowers himself in the profane act of taking it. The Wraith, on the other hand, do what they do for the worst possible reasons they could possibly do them: practical reasons. They kill in order to nourish their bodies.
                    This makes what they do unforgivable.

                    I totally disagree. A murderer kills for the sake of killing. The Wraith kill in order to survive - just like humans kill cows, and pigs, and chickens, and fish, to survive. If the Wraith could eat ANYTHING, they would...they would have no reason to feed on humans. But they can't just eat anything...as Elia's case proved. So, the Wraith's only 'sin' is that they are hungry. Have you ever been hungry? Have you ever starved? You do not go without food, do you? I think not. YOU eat. We ALL eat.

                    This is not a crime they are committing. They do not kill (as a rule) out of hate or anger. They kill to eat, and to defend themselves. True, some may kill for sport, some - perhaps - for the thrill of it - but for the most part the Wraith kill simply to eat. As far as we know, the Wraith cannot help what they are. They can only survive on one food source - so how is that unforgivable?!!

                    And a murderer has NO value of human life. If he had, he would not kill. The Wraith, at least, understand the value of human life by allowing some to remain alive, to repopulate the planets they cull. They also know that without living humans around, they die. They had enough appreciation for human life to help destroy the replicators. This shows a certain value for human life on the part of the Wraith - something the Ancients and replicators failed to have.

                    Maybe you should think of the Wraith - and their situation - as an ILLNESS. Just like a diabetic cannot metabolize sugar, and must eat a special diet, or get sick and die, the Wraith canNOT metabolize any other food but human life force. Do you kill off an entire species because they have an 'illness', or do you try to find a cure??

                    The most logical thing is to find a 'cure'. Humans have tried - but maybe they need to work WITH the Wraith, instead of against them, to find the ultimate cure.


                    das
                    Last edited by dasNdanger; 06 February 2008, 11:15 AM.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                      The Wraith kill in order to survive - just like humans kill cows, and pigs, and chickens, and fish, to survive... [snip] ...the Wraith's only 'sin' is that they are hungry. Have you ever been hungry? Have you ever starved? You do not go without food, do you? I think not. YOU eat. We ALL eat.
                      Sure, I've starved. For forty days, no less. It was an interesting experience. I am not denying that the wraith are killing in order to sustain their bodies. That is in fact precisely my objection to their act. I can forgive a man who murders someone because he is caught up in the blind rage of passion. I cannot forgive a creature that murders someone because it needs to sustain its body. A murderer may repent of his actions, serve his debt to society, and become a free man again. A being which must murder in order to live can never do that. He will always need to kill again, sooner or later. Crimes can be forgiven. Nature cannot.

                      This is not a crime they are committing. They do not kill (as a rule) out of hate or anger. They kill to eat, and to defend themselves. True, some may kill for sport, some - perhaps - for the thrill of it - but for the most part the Wraith kill simply to eat. As far as we know, the Wraith cannot help what they are. They can only survive on one food source - so how is that unforgivable?!!
                      Aside from the reasons already given, there is also the simple and imminently rational reason that their food source is me.

                      Maybe you should think of the Wraith - and their situation - as an ILLNESS. Just like a diabetic cannot metabolize sugar, and must eat a special diet, or get sick and die, the Wraith canNOT metabolize any other food but human life force. Do you kill off an entire species because they have an 'illness', or do you try to find a cure?? The most logical thing is to find a 'cure'.
                      Being a Wraith is not a disease. They are their own species. They are not human, and as Michael showed, they can never truly be human. They are an apex predator whose only food source is humanity. Therefore, the logical solution is to kill them all. All talk of 'sustainable Wraith levels' and the ecosystem of the Pegasus Galaxy falls to nothing in the face of human suffering. Again, these are apex predators whose food source is us. Therefore, as humans, we must either destroy this threat to our species, or forever live as their herd animals.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Scyld
                        Sure, I've starved. For forty days, no less. It was an interesting experience. I am not denying that the wraith are killing in order to sustain their bodies. That is in fact precisely my objection to their act. I can forgive a man who murders someone because he is caught up in the blind rage of passion. I cannot forgive a creature that murders someone because it needs to sustain its body. A murderer may repent of his actions, serve his debt to society, and become a free man again. A being which must murder in order to live can never do that. He will always need to kill again, sooner or later. Crimes can be forgiven. Nature cannot.
                        Oh, that makes absolutely no sense at all. A murderer has a CHOICE - he can choose to kill, or not to. Wraith have NO CHOICE...they have no control over their nature. I can easily forgive Wraith for what they are, much more than I can forgive a cold-blooded murderer who kills simply for the sake of killing.

                        Aside from the reasons already given, there is also the simple and imminently rational reason that their food source is me.
                        So - you would kill Wraith to sustain YOUR life? Why is it so wrong for them to do likewise? You have a double standard. "Okay for ME to do it, but NOT for them."

                        Being a Wraith is not a disease.
                        Didn't say THEY were a disease, said it was like they had a disease - and hopefully, that 'disease' (inability to metabolize normal food) can be cured.

                        They are their own species. They are not human, and as Michael showed, they can never truly be human.
                        No one has asked them to be human (besides humans).

                        They are an apex predator whose only food source is humanity. Therefore, the logical solution is to kill them all. All talk of 'sustainable Wraith levels' and the ecosystem of the Pegasus Galaxy falls to nothing in the face of human suffering. Again, these are apex predators whose food source is us. Therefore, as humans, we must either destroy this threat to our species, or forever live as their herd animals.
                        Okay - so let's kill all predators then - Lions, tigers, sharks - all have fed on humans. We would never think of it, and those creatures are not even part human, which the Wraith are.

                        Honestly, it just sounds like - to me - you hate the characters and that hatred has blinded you to their plight. In other words, you seem to lack the empathy needed to understand what they are going through. Empathy is the first thing needed for a solution to be found - a solution that does NOT include extermination. In some ways, I believe the writers COULD be headed this way. Already we have seen Sheppard go from a COLD BLOODED MURDERER when he shot Bob to death for no reason (even Ford said he had gone too far), to a man who let a Wraith go after giving Larrin back the life he had taken. In the past, Sheppard would have shot the Wraith dead - but this time, he let him go. So, I have hopes that TPTB also see the need to show Wraith a little empathy, and hopefully that empathy will inspire the writers to find a solution to the Wraith's dietary problems.

                        However - even if they do - and even if the Wraith find a way to eat normal food and live in peace with humans, I feel you, and others, will still not be happy unless all the Wraith are killed off.

                        Perhaps, you just don't like the way they look...

                        das
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Scyld View Post
                          I can forgive a man who murders someone because he is caught up in the blind rage of passion.
                          What with those who do not kill 'in the blind rage of passion' but with cold blood? Are they better than the Wraith? I don't think so...

                          Originally posted by Scyld View Post
                          I cannot forgive a creature that murders someone because it needs to sustain its body.
                          Are you a vegetarian?

                          Originally posted by Scyld View Post
                          A murderer may repent of his actions, serve his debt to society, and become a free man again.
                          A person who kills in the blind rage of passion is never free again, because of his conscience. A cold-blooded murderer can be free again, in his mind. He doesn't care... Serve his debt? Taking soebody's life is a debt that cannot be paid back.

                          Icarium

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by dasNdanger View Post
                            Oh, that makes absolutely no sense at all. A murderer has a CHOICE - he can choose to kill, or not to. Wraith have NO CHOICE...they have no control over their nature. I can easily forgive Wraith for what they are, much more than I can forgive a cold-blooded murderer who kills simply for the sake of killing.
                            Yes, that's exactly right. The Murderer has a choice, and can also choose otherwise. A Wraith cannot choose to do otherwise, and therefore cannot be forgiven; it is not a matter of forgiveness at all, but of survival. There is no moral component to a Wraith's actions.

                            So - you would kill Wraith to sustain YOUR life?
                            To sustain my life? Not necessarily. To save the lives of others? Absolutely yes. Remember, Wraith are effectively immortal as long as their cells are kept properly nourished. When you experience a moral dilemma at the thought of killing them, think about the untold numbers of human lives necessary to sustain their existence.

                            Wraith must kill us to live. How often? Well, we don't know exactly. We've seen them go months without food, but it appears they like to feed more often than that. Still, for the sake of this illustration, let's assume that they need to feed at least once per month. This means that every year a wraith lives requires that it kill twelve of us unless it is in hibernation. How many years has it been since the Ancients left the Pegasus Galaxy? Ten thousand or so? If this is the case, then using the 'one feeding per month' projection, each of those watchers who were left awake to tend to those that slept required the deaths of 120,000 human beings in order to continue their lives. Given another 10,000 years, and each of those Wraith, if they are not otherwise killed, will take another 120,000 human lives. Kill that Wraith now, and those are 120,000 people it won't be able to murder over the course of the next 10,000 years.

                            Okay - so let's kill all predators then - Lions, tigers, sharks - all have fed on humans. We would never think of it, and those creatures are not even part human, which the Wraith are.
                            Yes, but lions, tigers, and sharks do not need to feed on human beings, and indeed are not even particularly interested in doing so. They generally only eat people if there is something drastically wrong. The Wraith food source is us. Period. They have no other.

                            Honestly, it just sounds like - to me - you hate the characters and that hatred has blinded you to their plight. In other words, you seem to lack the empathy needed to understand what they are going through. Empathy is the first thing needed for a solution to be found - a solution that does NOT include extermination.
                            I don't hate the wraith at all. There would be no point in hating them. Nor do I think they are evil, any more than I think that a tiger which eats a human being is evil. I actually think they're kind of cool. But, again, we are their food source. I may not think a tiger which has acquired a taste for human beings is evil, but I will still insist that it be put down in order to prevent it from eating more human beings.

                            So, I have hopes that TPTB also see the need to show Wraith a little empathy, and hopefully that empathy will inspire the writers to find a solution to the Wraith's dietary problems.
                            Lacking some applied phlebotinium combined with the judicious application of hand-waving, however, we shall have to content ourselves with things which are actually possible without the use of deus ex machina.

                            As the good David Langford once said as a corollary to Arthur C. Clark's third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is completely indistinguishable from a completely ad-hoc plot device."

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Scyld View Post
                              The Murderer has a choice, and can also choose otherwise.
                              Those who have a choice and still choose to kill an innocent person cannot be forgiven.
                              I do not claim that the Wraith are innocent but we have no right to wipe out an entire race only because of its eating habits. We're not gods...

                              Icarium

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