Voyager ponderings

[AGateFan]

So I have been watching all of Voyager. Taping it everyday on Spike to see what I missed when my area switched to WB and we didnt get the Paramount network. I have seen the end of the series and now it has restarted its run. I created this thread for my comments and questions as I rewatch the series.

I mostly created it due to a question that occurred to me today at work.

Harry Kim indicated in an ep near the end of the series that he could have his own command by now if he had been in federation space. He was a new ensign at the beginning of the series. So he has been around about 7 years.

Tuvok on the other hand has been in the federation (ok in, then out, then back in) since the time of Sulu, so about 100 years or so.

So how come no one is concerned about his rank? Are Vulcans just not concerned about such things? Do Vulcans not get promoted as fast due to their long lives? Dare I say... is there prejuduce against vulcans in command (maybe from the mistrust built up in Enterprise... which actually seems out of cannon since I thought Spock was the first official vulcan serving on a mixed starfleet ship...but maybe I dreamed that).

[sueKay]

I think Tuvok left Starfleet for a long period of time according to a few of the books when he went through Kolinahr and the Ponn Farr and started his family. He also taught Archery science on Vulcan for several years.

[gopher65]

Right. Tuvok joined Starfleet when he was but a wee lad at the bequest of his parents. He left Starfleet a short time later (partly cause he couldn't stand humans), and only rejoined again (of his own volition this time) a few years before Voyager was lost in the Delta Quadrant.

And I think Harry says "I would have made a Lieutenant by now, maybe even Lieutenant Commander."

[Jeffala]

Tuvok was out of Starfleet for about 47 years. He resigned with the rank of ensign.

In the thirty years in between his return to Starfleet and Voyager's being stranded in the Delta Quadrant, he was promoted three times: Ensign > Lieutenant, j.g. > Lieutenant > Lieutenant Commander. The last promotion coming 31 years after he returned to Starfleet and during Voyager's return to the Alpha Quadrant.

Half (16 years) of the time in his second stint in Starfleet seems to have been spent in teaching positions and not on starships which could account for the slow rate of promotions.

The (possibly) slow rate of promotion could also be considered a type of punishment. After the work put into training him, he almost immediately resigned from the fleet in order to return to his homeworld.

Of course, being in a rank for seven years or so isn't without precedent. Worf was promoted to Lieutenant in 2364 when he was made Tactical and Security Officer of the Enterprise and he stayed in that rank until 2371. In the novel Resistance set at about the year 2380, he is promoted to Commander.

[gopher65]

I'm thinking, based on what we've seen, that in order to enter the command line you have to be serving on a Starship or a Starbase rather than a desk job. That's the only way that I can reconcile the fact that there are 70 year old lieutenants in starfleet who will apparently *never* get promoted beyond that level. Unless every one of them happened to join starfleet while they were in their 50's heh. Course, I guess some people just aren't cut out for a command position.

What was Geordie's final rank on TNG? LC? He started as a fresh ensign, right? Just like Harry. So 7 years and 7 years.

[Jeffala]

Geordi started as a Lieutenant, j.g. (2364) and was subsequently promoted to full Lieutenant (2365) and then later Lieutenant Commander (2366).

Remember that he was stationed on the Victory and Hood before being posted to the Enterprise.

He also started out in Command and later transfered to Operations.

[SoulReaver]

Dare I say... is there prejuduce against vulcans in command

they're Earth's closest allies (and the 1st alien race encountered by terrans), so prejudice against vulcans would seem...illogical

[Jeffala]

There are Vulcans at every level of Starfleet including the Admiralty. Vulcans made up almost the entire crew of the T'Kumbra with a Vulcan in command. I fail to see how there would be some sort of prejudice against Vulcans.

[AGateFan]

There are Vulcans at every level of Starfleet including the Admiralty. Vulcans made up almost the entire crew of the T'Kumbra with a Vulcan in command. I fail to see how there would be some sort of prejudice against Vulcans.

Well there did seem to be some prejudice in Enterprise. People hate people that try to tell them what to do. Certainly Vulcans think humans are illogical and would like to tell them what to do. Also didnt they bring up some stuff in the original series about Spock being unusual for being in starfleet? When I see a Vulcan in command it seems to be with a Vulcan crew. Of course I dont exactly see a lot of the other races in charge either, mostly just humans. Perhaps the other races are not as involved in the military\exploration aspects of the federation.

I totally didnt even think about the other Startrek shows and why those people didnt get promoted. Altough Riker turned down commands and the others (like Geordie and Data) are shown in command in time travel eps...much like Harry Kim was.

[gopher65]

AGateFan brings up one of my pet peeves about Star Trek in general. Starfleet is clearly a human organization that also allows aliens to join when they want to. It is based on Earth, it is staffed by humans, the design patterns are human (I haven't seen one ship with shiny metal Andorian designs, or any aluminum foil uniforms in Starfleet), the bases are human, the planets they visit are M-class.

I would expect nothing less. Starfleet = human. (And it is apparently a scientific and explorationary organization and not a military force but let's ignore that.) Ok, got it. Not every species can co-exist for multiple reasons. For instance, Andorians seem to like temperature ranges that a Vulcan or a Klingon couldn't withstand, and that a human would find numbing. They wouldn't all want to serve on the same ships together. Cool. That makes perfect sense to me. Some species do well together in the same environment (humans, Bolians, Vulcans), and some don't.

But then where is the Andorian version of Starfleet? Where is the Trill Starfleet? Where are the Tellarite ships? Even if, for some odd reason, all of those species decided to just send ships into Starfleet (a human fleet remember) instead of maintaining their own fleets, where are the individual ships? We've seen only a handful of Starfleet Vulcan ships, and none from anyone else!

Near as I can tell, the Federation is a loose association of species similar to the UN or maybe, at most, the EU. It isn't a centrally governed civilization that enforces federal rules and authority on its member worlds (as is noted on many occasions). I haven't seen a single EU member decide that it didn't need a military because Britain, France, and Germany where going to protect them. For the same reasons Trill wouldn't decide that it didn't need a military because Earth and Vulcan were going to protect it. And heck, even the individual states in the US have their own quasi-military forces.

It's just silly and ill thought out.

[Jeffala]

Well there did seem to be some prejudice in Enterprise. People hate people that try to tell them what to do. Certainly Vulcans think humans are illogical and would like to tell them what to do.

Well, 50 years after First Contact and the Vulcans were holding them back. They didn't think they were ready so they advised against pushing too hard too fast. After T'Pau came to power they backed off.

Also didnt they bring up some stuff in the original series about Spock being unusual for being in starfleet?

He was the first Vulcan in Starfleet so yes, he was unusual. He was also the child of a Vulcan and a human so that adds to his perceived oddity.

[Ice Wolf]

I think that there is a realistic reason why Vulcans take longer to get promoted.
They are extremely competent reliable officers, but thats about it, their nature means that the arent innovative or prone to acts of heroism or going above and beyond, these traits are usually what speeds up the promotion progress. It seems that after you reach Lt. in starfleet there has to be a reason to promote and it cant just be time in rank.

Harrys situation was such that on Voyager their wasnt much room for promotion and need for it to happen, realistically as he was a senior officer he should of made Lt. early on. I think the reason that he wasnt promoted was more of a running joke than anything else.

[AGateFan]

I think that there is a realistic reason why Vulcans take longer to get promoted.
They are extremely competent reliable officers, but thats about it, their nature means that the arent innovative or prone to acts of heroism or going above and beyond, these traits are usually what speeds up the promotion progress. It seems that after you reach Lt. in starfleet there has to be a reason to promote and it cant just be time in rank.

Harrys situation was such that on Voyager their wasnt much room for promotion and need for it to happen, realistically as he was a senior officer he should of made Lt. early on. I think the reason that he wasnt promoted was more of a running joke than anything else.

Especially after they demoted and then repromoted Paris. When they re-promoted Paris I kept thinking how unfair it was for Kim. Though its not like he is without insubordination.


Oh, just watched the Amelia Earhart ep. I had forgotten about that one. It seems like I always remembered S1 of Voyager as being really really bad due to the Kazon continously taking over the ship. However, my current experience indicates that is not the case. I have enjoyed a number of these early eps.

The acting in the first couple of eps was pretty stiff and you can still see the actors feeling out their characters. Janeway is more emotional, Neelix is more pessimistic and annoying, Chakotee was a little somber, Paris a little too energetic and the doctor (logically in his case) quite stiff. The actors playing Kim, Kes, Tuvok and Tores seemd to fall into their characters more easily after the first ep but it took a bit for them to get Tores makeup down I think. Still though I am enjoying most of the eps. Though I still dont really like the Kazon line...but oddly I did like Ceska (I am not convinced her motivations were all that logical though since Voyager was bound to move beyon Kazon space). I await those eps that had embedded themselves in my subcouncous and made me not like the first season, so far I havent found them.

[Krisz]

I'm thinking, based on what we've seen, that in order to enter the command line you have to be serving on a Starship or a Starbase rather than a desk job. That's the only way that I can reconcile the fact that there are 70 year old lieutenants in starfleet who will apparently *never* get promoted beyond that level. Unless every one of them happened to join starfleet while they were in their 50's heh. Course, I guess some people just aren't cut out for a command position.

What was Geordie's final rank on TNG? LC? He started as a fresh ensign, right? Just like Harry. So 7 years and 7 years.

This is illustrated in the TNG episode 'Tapestry'. Picard is only a 'compentent' Lieutenant Junior Grade (instead of Captain) on the Enterprise in the Astrophysics dept in the same point of the altered timeline after he decided not to take any more risks after he changed history by avoiding the fight with the Nausicans. Many I guess aren't cut out for command and depending on how ambitious they are within their fields they don't go any further than Lieutenant or even Ensign if this episode is anything to go by.

Ensign Kim would have been promoted as he shows initiative and a willingness to learn and take on command duties. I still think though that he should have got the rank of Lieutenant before they got back to the Alpha quadrant. His attitude, aptitude and devotion to duty should have been acknowledged by Janeway by giving him the promotion instead of telling him what a good little Ensign he was all the time! LOL!

[AGateFan]

I agree. If its a matter of Lt "slots" then Kim should have been promoted before Paris was re-promoted. Though maybe the "slots" are based on job type and maybe its more appropriate to have a Lt at the helm and an Ensign at Ops. But then Kim was night shift commander so I guess that means the night shift helmsman was a ensign too, how could he order a Lt around.