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**Agent_Dark** · 11 December 2007, 01:10 PM

he should be charged with failing to adequetly pwn that noob thread

**The_Carpenter** · 11 December 2007, 01:43 PM

Did Landry know about the assisted suicide or was he kept out of the loop?

Don't how he couldn't of been so IMO yes

Was there an assisted suicide?

Possibly, but without any idea of what went on behind closed doors (assuming no one in the room says anything contrary to Sheps report) other than Sheps report reasonable doubt says no.

Was there a murder of a prisoner?

See above

Was there falsification on the official report filed by sheppard?

Again maybe, but if no-one says anything to the contrary good luck proving it

Was there Justification if there was?

In my opinion yes there was. Someone vital to the expedition was going to sacrifice him self if this didn't happen (even if Jenny died then McKay would be in no fit state to deactivate the replicators/Asurans). It was evident someone had to die better Wallace than McKay or Jenny maybe cold but its the truth.

Was Sheppard acting with in his sworn duty?

What is his sworn duty? apologies I don't have time to read the court martial thread. However in the assumption that his duties include the defence of Atlantis and the well being of his team I would say yes.

was there deception in the official report filing?
was Wallace's suicide suicide or murder?

Already answered

was Wallace's death preventable?

Yes it was. But was preventing Wallace's death worth the cost to the Pegasus Galaxy and Earths future? IMO no

1. was wallace competent enough to make that choice to give up his life or was he stressed to the point where he could not truly comprehend what allowing a wraith to feed on him would mean?

Yes, he was competent enough to organise a highly effective kidnapping and effective poisoning of Jenny when facing his Daughters inevitable demise. So he strikes me as some one who would of been prepared for his daughters death and capable of making decisions. (Also as has been pointed out families are asked to sign Organ Donation forms very soon after losing a loved one, as these are legally binding there is no legal precedent for a defence in this case).

2. in such a case where a human life is required to keep an enemy with vital info alive...is it justifiable to alllow the suicide of another inmate or for matter any other person on that base?

If that death would lead to the survival of the party with vital information then yes. Remember in this case we are not talking about a few million lives we are talking about the billions that reside in Pegasus.

3. is it justified to allow a man to kill himself while in custody of an armed force?

Don't quite see how you would stop him, if someone wants to kill them selves they will find a way even if its starving them selves. Best make it as quick and painless as possible if it can't be a useful death.

4. was there deception in the case? For example...why would Sheppard be giving a tour of the lab to a prisoner who has been charged with attempted murder and kidnapping?

I can't really think of a reason. Other than Wallace wanting to apologise to McKay who was absent from the lab.

5. did sheppard knowingly and willfully commit the crime of assisted suicide?

Answered above but repeated for convenience

Possibly, but without any idea of what went on behind closed doors (assuming no one in the room says anything contrary to Sheps report) other than Sheps report reasonable doubt says no.

6. did sheppard knowingly and willingly premeditate the crime?

As above, but if he did assist in Suicide then I'd have to say yes

7. does assisted suicide accurately define the alleged crime?

As good as any in my mind.

Was Sheppard following orders? Or. Was he acting with the knowledge of his superiors?

Theres not enough evidence in the episode to determine this. But in my mind he acted with the knowledge of his superiors.

How does being in a state of war change how military actions are perceived?

That is a very good question. And depends very much on how desperate the situation is and what is at stake. In this case the future of Earth and the inhabitants of the Pegasus Galaxy is at stake, so I would say the means justify the ends others will certainly disagree which is good everyone needs someone to hold them back from the abyss.

To answer the question yes in my view being in a state of war of this level with these stakes does change things, we may not like to admit it in this day and age but when so much is at stake as is in this situation it is the only option.

BTW are there any roles left? I wouldn't mind taking one if they are still available by next Tuesday (18/12).

**blue-skyz** · 11 December 2007, 03:51 PM

I am not Landry for the purposes of this discussion. (Court martial thread)

Presumably, Sheppard was arrested on Atlantis. He would have written his report before he left the SGC.

So, if the report was written as he told McKay it would be, he has admitted some level of negligence. He probably shares this negligence with whoever was in charge of security on the SGC side, but for our purposes we will ignore him.

The SGC, Landry, probably, signed off on the report, sending it on to the IOA, O’Neill etc., where ever top secret reports of civilians being killed go. In signing off on the report and allowing Sheppard to return to Atlantis, Landry or whoever has effectively stated that he considers the negligence to be acceptable for the unusual conditions. This does not necessarily incriminate Landry (covering my ass here).

The IOA, Woolsey or someone else questioned the report.

It has been stated that the tape of Miller’s Crossing was sent to someone, the IOA or Woolsey, presumably, by some unknown person. This tape led to the questioning of the truth of the report.

All this is leading up to what I think Sheppard could reasonably be charged with.
Here are some possibilities:

* Negligence leading to the death of a civilian

* Assisting a suicide

* Related to the assisted suicide not the negligence:
-- Lying about why he was taking Wallace to the lab
-- Falsifying a report
-- Ordering those of a lower rank to lie about what they saw or what happened
-- Disabling security cameras in some way (since we have no video of the incident)

Note: I do not think that Sheppard’s speaking to Wallace to tell him that his daughter had died and the situation involving Jeannie’s health can be construed as criminal. I also think that Wallace was rational at the time.

If Wallace was not rational at the time, it would be very hard to prove that Sheppard could discern that and use it to his advantage. (Upset or grieving does not equate to mentally incompetent)

Then there is always the possibility that Sheppard had Wallace forcibly taken to the Wraith, hence murder.

(Not the Sheppard we know and love

) The inadmissible

conversation between Sheppard and McKay in Sheppard’s quarters would tend to disprove this allegation. It would also be much harder to cover up.

Justification is also an issue related to assisted suicide, but not part of the charges, per se.

This does not address any charges that could be brought against Landry as a result of the outcome of the court martial.

**expendable_crewman** · 12 December 2007, 01:35 PM

There are two ways to answer this, I think.

1) This is a thread related to the court martial thread, so Sheppard is already in deep trouble and the shoe has dropped.

The other way is 2) looking at the picture as though we don't have to make up charges if we don't see any, then the question is: What has he actually done?

Number 2 is easier than number 1 for me but that's because I haven't been following the flow of the CM thread to the point that I understand how Sheppard ended up in trouble, meaning the process of pinching him has eluded me.

For number 2, just helping someone commit suicide is a crime. Most everyone will agree with that.

The trouble here is we get presented with dramatic scenarios every week. And on occasion, to be honest, a person simply fails to do everything he or she can to stop someone from going forward with a suicidal act. Writers like to use this tact to establish jeopardy for characters.

Examples.

* Rodney, Lorne, Ronon, and Beckett let Sheppard suit up and get inside a rocket that was inside a moon and had no fuel. The moon is in a decaying orbit and there's a perfectly fine working Jumper on stand-by. Duh. But ... Sheppard was facing losing a team member and understandably upset. He'd been injured in the explosion early in the ep, deprived of oxygen, etc., but he looked okay, he talked okay, he spoke in complete sentences, just like Wallace. Rodney, Lorne, Ronon, and Beckett allowed him to choose not to get into the Jumper, all the while believing Sheppard was choosing to die. Rodney even asks him if he has last words.

* An injured SGC team member decides it's his job to stay behind and release a weapon that will kill him (and the enemy in pursuit) and SG-1 lets him. Is an injured man any more or less capable of deciding to live or die than a sad man? What's his oxygen level? He looked a little pale to me. Were all his brain cells firing evenly? Is it okay for healthy team members to leave behind a wounded one (even when the wounded one says, Leave me!) in order to escape a dangerous situation?

Some put emphasis on Wallace's status as a civilian, which usually prompts the posters in the other camp to make a laundry list of Wallace's crimes in order to show Wallace could and did grasp the stakes as well as a volunteer combatant. Combatants don't sign up to die, btw. Signing on the dotted line is not the same thing as saying, "I'll stay behind" or "Take me to the Wraith." Combatants join the military to serve. A reasonable expectation of jeopardy (before, let's say, heading out to work that day) for the people in the above scenarios doesn't work as a mitigating factor unless one agrees that committing multiple felonies (Wallace) against people involved in a top secret government project carries a similar and equally reasonable expectation of jeopardy.

I could argue that taking a researcher on a top secret government project by force is inherently more dangerous that Stargate travel. But that's me.

So for number 2, standing aside and letting someone who made a choice to die, die is not a crime on this show. It's not even rare. It's rough, though. Most of us are not rocket pilots, commanding officers, and warriors. Those folks are harder to identify with, and we know *they* know their jobs are dangerous. On the other hand, Wallace was written to feel more like us, like the everyday person, worse, like a poor sad every day person, the kind of person (like us) that we want Sheppard to protect. And he didn't.

I don't think he can (or should) be court-martialed for that, although human history is full of people who have offended sensibilities more than they offended the penal code and they were made to pay for it dearly. I don't think Sheppard can be court-martialed for an act he was given approval to conduct, although that has happened when a peson's superior leaves them out in the cold. Landry is not that sort of superior. I don't think Landry would leave anyone twitching in the wind.

I do apologize for only being able to handle my number 2 question.

I do agree that for the most part the CM thread is for fun and chuckles. For the most part.

**ReganX** · 12 December 2007, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by The_Carpenter View Post

In my opinion yes there was. Someone vital to the expedition was going to sacrifice him self if this didn't happen

Voluntarily?

Originally posted by The_Carpenter View Post

Don't quite see how you would stop him, if someone wants to kill them selves they will find a way even if its starving them selves. Best make it as quick and painless as possible if it can't be a useful death.

How did Wallace find out about the need for a Wraith to feed, or what that feeding would entail?
Did Sheppard tell him? If so, was it his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself?
If that was not his intention, why did he tell him about it in the first place?
Was Wallace put under any pressure (physical, psychological or emotional) to offer himself as a sacrifice?

**blue-skyz** · 13 December 2007, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by ReganX View Post

How did Wallace find out about the need for a Wraith to feed, or what that feeding would entail?
Did Sheppard tell him? If so, was it his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself?
If that was not his intention, why did he tell him about it in the first place?
Was Wallace put under any pressure (physical, psychological or emotional) to offer himself as a sacrifice?

Sheppard told Wallace the specifics of the situation. It’s right there on the video tape.

On the tape there is no blatant attempt to convince or pressure Wallace into anything, just a calm telling of the facts. Since the conversation stops on the tape, we must assume that that was the end of the conversation.

For my part, I think, it was ‘his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself.’ This is not a crime. Some version of what happens may be, but not the conversation we see on tape.

Wallace was under the pressure of knowing that an innocent woman, a mother, was going to die because of him, by his hand, and he would be guilty of first degree murder when she did. Wallace was basically a good man. He chose to save his victim. The psychological and emotional pressure that he was under was of his own making, from his own guilt. Sheppard could not have provoked that reaction in someone that was not overwhelmingly remorseful.

And, IMO, there is no possibility of physical force being used to get Wallace to the Wraith.

The intention here is interesting, but the actual crime, if one exists, centers around Wallace’s death and what happened between the end of Sheppard’s conversation with Wallace and McKay’s entering the lab.

1. How did Wallace get to the lab?
2. What were the guards told? Who has authority over the SGC guards?
3. Who released the Wraith or was it made to appear that he broke free?
4. Did Sheppard conspire with the Wraith? Are there witnesses?
5. How did Sheppard control the situation so that the Wraith was not killed when he started to feed?
6. Where is the security camera footage of the incident?

And:
*How did Sheppard not get into immediate trouble for what he did?*

The last one is the most interesting.

We really need specific crimes for a court martial.
It would be better to have some kind of hearing first to try to reconstruct what happened and interpret what is seen on the tape. Each of the principles should be interviewed (deposed or just informally questioned) in a fact finding hearing.

In proper terms there should be an Article 32 hearing validate the charges.
The Wiki description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_32_hearing

**bluealien** · 13 December 2007, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by blue-skyz View Post

Sheppard told Wallace the specifics of the situation. It’s right there on the video tape.

On the tape there is no blatant attempt to convince or pressure Wallace into anything, just a calm telling of the facts. Since the conversation stops on the tape, we must assume that that was the end of the conversation.

Sheppards entire purpose was to get Wallace to kill himself. Do you think if Rodney hadn't volunteered to be Wraith fodder that Sheppard would be presenting those facts in the same way. He wanted to convince Wallace to take Rodney's place. Why else did he present the facts the way he did, showing pictures of Jeannies family. Why did Wallace need to see pictures of Jeannies family unless it was to put undue pressure on him to do "the right" thing, which in this case was to offer himself up as wraith fodder to save Rodneys life. Presenting those pictures was a blatent attempt to put pressure on Wallace. Emotional persuasion is just as effective as physical especially in the state of mind that Wallace was in, and I will argue that Wallace would have been in a heightened emotional state as he had just been told of his daughters death. This is NOT the same state of mind he was in when he arranged the kidnapping, or when he injected Jeannie with the Nanites. These previous actions had been done in desparation to save his daughters life, but now he had just been told she was dead, and I doubt anyone would be in a completely rational state of mind immediately after being told of the death of a loved one, especially your child.

For my part, I think, it was ‘his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself.’ This is not a crime. Some version of what happens may be, but not the conversation we see on tape.

By law it will be difficult to prove the intent behind Sheppards actions and that is the crux of the matter. But whichever way we want to spin this Sheppard wanted Wallace to die and presented the options with that in mind. He knew exactly which buttons to push as he knew that Wallace wasn't a hardened criminal so he laid on the guilt and it worked. So bottom line Sheppard succeeded in what he wanted to accomplish and therefore he is guilty of aiding and abetting a suicide, that alone is a criminal action. But most likely his superiors will turn a blind eye, which looks like they already have done. Sheppard solved a problem for them in a way, and there is no way they would want anything like this made public or even brought to military trial. I'm sure they want as little people as possible, including the military, knowing about life sucking aliens.

]Wallace was under the pressure of knowing that an innocent woman, a mother, was going to die because of him, by his hand, and he would be guilty of first degree murder when she did. Wallace was basically a good man. He chose to save his victim.

Well that is what Sheppard wanted him to believe. But who knows really what would have happened.. Maybe the Wraith could have mustered up enough energy to finish those last few minutes, it did only take him minutes to achieve this anyway. Maybe Rodney could have come up with a solution, he has done so on numerous occasion in the past when the team or Atlantis were in danger. But we will never know, because Sheppard piled on the worst case scenario... He had to in order to get Wallace to do what he wanted. He had to act quickly if he was to be sure of saving Rodney,the same way Wallace had tried to act quickly knowing his daughter had very little time left. Both men were pushed to do desparate things in order to save those they loved. Sheppards actions here were Personal.. They were to save his friend. The fate of the Pegasus Galaxy did not come into it, otherwise Sheppard would have been considering ways of feeding the Wraith before, especially when millions of lives seemed to suddenly depend on this Wraith. Where was the urgency before to get the Wraith to help or even to think about feeding him. So again I don't think the fate of the PG galaxy played a part in Shep's decison. It was purely to save a friend and someone who meant a lot to him and was part of his "family".

The psychological and emotional pressure that he was under was of his own making, from his own guilt. Sheppard could not have provoked that reaction in someone that was not overwhelmingly remorseful.

The psychological pressure he was under was due to the fact that his daughter was dying and he had taken desparate measures to try and prevent this. He had admitted that he never wanted anyone hurt, he just wanted to save his daughter and yes he was remorseful. But Sheppard played on that remorse seconds after he told him his daughter had died..

And, IMO, there is no possibility of physical force being used to get Wallace to the Wraith.

You don't know that. You are assuming that Sheppard wouldnt go that far. But we don't know. I never thought he would go as far as talking someone into kiling themself. But either way, Sheppard didnt have to lay a finger on Wallace to get him to do what he wanted him to do. So the fact that he may not have used any physical force doesn't make what he did any less wrong. Pyschological force can be just as effective. The mind can be a very powerful thing and Sheppard played mind games with Wallace.

The intention here is interesting, but the actual crime, if one exists, centers around Wallace’s death and what happened between the end of Sheppard’s conversation with Wallace and McKay’s entering the lab.

The intent was there from the very first moment Sheppard spoke to Wallace so therefore a crime was committed. But proving that intent is another matter.

1. How did Wallace get to the lab?
2. What were the guards told? Who has authority over the SGC guards?
3. Who released the Wraith or was it made to appear that he broke free?
4. Did Sheppard conspire with the Wraith? Are there witnesses?
5. How did Sheppard control the situation so that the Wraith was not killed when he started to feed?
6. Where is the security camera footage of the incident?

We will never know the answers to the above as the writers want us to fill in the blanks ourselves and each person will probably come up with a different version, and a different scenario.

And:
*How did Sheppard not get into immediate trouble for what he did?*

Again impossible to say because no one but Sheppard was seen making the decisions, and again I think the writers have left us to make up our own minds on that as well. I'm going to assume here though that Sheppard acted alone as I cannot see Landry or anyone else in the SGC giving Sheppard the go ahead to feed someone to a Wraith. But I don't know how that explains the marines standing in the room especially with Sheppard addmiting openingly that he was going to falsify the report. If he had the backing of the SGC why falsify anything. Wouldn't that put Landry and other higher ups in a pretty bad light if there was an investigation. It's quite possible a Kavanaugh type person could be lurking around, and leaking something like this to the public could have huge reprecussions on the SGC.

We really need specific crimes for a court martial.

Aiding and abetting a prisoner in a suicide attempt. Not keeping the prisoner under guard and allowing him to roam free into dangerous and classified areas.

**blue-skyz** · 13 December 2007, 04:45 PM