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  1. #1
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    Default What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    The court martial needs to define the charges against Sheppard.

    I just pulled some out of the thread to start with. I got bored after 6 pages.

    Anybody and everybody can contribute your ideas of what Sheppard is guilty of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
    The questions are:

    Did Landry know about the assisted suicide or was he kept out of the loop?
    Was there an assisted suicide?
    Was there a murder of a prisoner?
    Was there falsification on the official report filed by sheppard?
    Was there Justification if there was?
    Was Sheppard acting with in his sworn duty?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
    was there deception in the official report filing?
    was Wallace's suicide suicide or murder?
    was Wallace's death preventable?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
    I think what the court has to decide a few things:

    1. was wallace competent enough to make that choice to give up his life or was he stressed to the point where he could not truly comprehend what allowing a wraith to feed on him would mean?

    2. in such a case where a human life is required to keep an enemy with vital info alive...is it justifiable to alllow the suicide of another inmate or for matter any other person on that base?

    3. is it justified to allow a man to kill himself while in custody of an armed force?

    4. was there deception in the case? For example...why would Sheppard be giving a tour of the lab to a prisoner who has been charged with attempted murder and kidnapping?

    5. did sheppard knowingly and willfully commit the crime of assisted suicide?

    6. did sheppard knowingly and willingly premeditate the crime?

    7. does assisted suicide accurately define the alleged crime?
    Quote Originally Posted by blue-skyz View Post
    Add to those:

    Was Sheppard following orders? Or. Was he acting with the knowledge of his superiors?

    How does being in a state of war change how military actions are perceived?

  2. #2
    Colonel Agent_Dark's Avatar
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    he should be charged with failing to adequetly pwn that noob thread

  3. #3
    He Who Burns At The Center Of Time The_Carpenter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Did Landry know about the assisted suicide or was he kept out of the loop?
    Don't how he couldn't of been so IMO yes

    Was there an assisted suicide?
    Possibly, but without any idea of what went on behind closed doors (assuming no one in the room says anything contrary to Sheps report) other than Sheps report reasonable doubt says no.

    Was there a murder of a prisoner?
    See above

    Was there falsification on the official report filed by sheppard?
    Again maybe, but if no-one says anything to the contrary good luck proving it

    Was there Justification if there was?
    In my opinion yes there was. Someone vital to the expedition was going to sacrifice him self if this didn't happen (even if Jenny died then McKay would be in no fit state to deactivate the replicators/Asurans). It was evident someone had to die better Wallace than McKay or Jenny maybe cold but its the truth.

    Was Sheppard acting with in his sworn duty?
    What is his sworn duty? apologies I don't have time to read the court martial thread. However in the assumption that his duties include the defence of Atlantis and the well being of his team I would say yes.

    was there deception in the official report filing?
    was Wallace's suicide suicide or murder?
    Already answered

    was Wallace's death preventable?
    Yes it was. But was preventing Wallace's death worth the cost to the Pegasus Galaxy and Earths future? IMO no

    1. was wallace competent enough to make that choice to give up his life or was he stressed to the point where he could not truly comprehend what allowing a wraith to feed on him would mean?
    Yes, he was competent enough to organise a highly effective kidnapping and effective poisoning of Jenny when facing his Daughters inevitable demise. So he strikes me as some one who would of been prepared for his daughters death and capable of making decisions. (Also as has been pointed out families are asked to sign Organ Donation forms very soon after losing a loved one, as these are legally binding there is no legal precedent for a defence in this case).

    2. in such a case where a human life is required to keep an enemy with vital info alive...is it justifiable to alllow the suicide of another inmate or for matter any other person on that base?
    If that death would lead to the survival of the party with vital information then yes. Remember in this case we are not talking about a few million lives we are talking about the billions that reside in Pegasus.

    3. is it justified to allow a man to kill himself while in custody of an armed force?
    Don't quite see how you would stop him, if someone wants to kill them selves they will find a way even if its starving them selves. Best make it as quick and painless as possible if it can't be a useful death.

    4. was there deception in the case? For example...why would Sheppard be giving a tour of the lab to a prisoner who has been charged with attempted murder and kidnapping?
    I can't really think of a reason. Other than Wallace wanting to apologise to McKay who was absent from the lab.

    5. did sheppard knowingly and willfully commit the crime of assisted suicide?
    Answered above but repeated for convenience

    Possibly, but without any idea of what went on behind closed doors (assuming no one in the room says anything contrary to Sheps report) other than Sheps report reasonable doubt says no.

    6. did sheppard knowingly and willingly premeditate the crime?
    As above, but if he did assist in Suicide then I'd have to say yes

    7. does assisted suicide accurately define the alleged crime?
    As good as any in my mind.

    Was Sheppard following orders? Or. Was he acting with the knowledge of his superiors?
    Theres not enough evidence in the episode to determine this. But in my mind he acted with the knowledge of his superiors.

    How does being in a state of war change how military actions are perceived?
    That is a very good question. And depends very much on how desperate the situation is and what is at stake. In this case the future of Earth and the inhabitants of the Pegasus Galaxy is at stake, so I would say the means justify the ends others will certainly disagree which is good everyone needs someone to hold them back from the abyss.

    To answer the question yes in my view being in a state of war of this level with these stakes does change things, we may not like to admit it in this day and age but when so much is at stake as is in this situation it is the only option.

    BTW are there any roles left? I wouldn't mind taking one if they are still available by next Tuesday (18/12).
    A word of advice... there are creatures that live between this dimension and the next, fiendish creatures that feast on the suffering of an entire world to satiate their eternal hunger. Support the Gateworld Cantina or suffer the fate of all who fall into the clutches of the 'Eladrith Ynneas'

  4. #4
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    I am not Landry for the purposes of this discussion. (Court martial thread)

    Presumably, Sheppard was arrested on Atlantis. He would have written his report before he left the SGC.

    So, if the report was written as he told McKay it would be, he has admitted some level of negligence. He probably shares this negligence with whoever was in charge of security on the SGC side, but for our purposes we will ignore him.

    The SGC, Landry, probably, signed off on the report, sending it on to the IOA, O’Neill etc., where ever top secret reports of civilians being killed go. In signing off on the report and allowing Sheppard to return to Atlantis, Landry or whoever has effectively stated that he considers the negligence to be acceptable for the unusual conditions. This does not necessarily incriminate Landry (covering my ass here).

    The IOA, Woolsey or someone else questioned the report.

    It has been stated that the tape of Miller’s Crossing was sent to someone, the IOA or Woolsey, presumably, by some unknown person. This tape led to the questioning of the truth of the report.

    All this is leading up to what I think Sheppard could reasonably be charged with.
    Here are some possibilities:

    * Negligence leading to the death of a civilian

    * Assisting a suicide

    * Related to the assisted suicide not the negligence:
    -- Lying about why he was taking Wallace to the lab
    -- Falsifying a report
    -- Ordering those of a lower rank to lie about what they saw or what happened
    -- Disabling security cameras in some way (since we have no video of the incident)

    Note: I do not think that Sheppard’s speaking to Wallace to tell him that his daughter had died and the situation involving Jeannie’s health can be construed as criminal. I also think that Wallace was rational at the time.

    If Wallace was not rational at the time, it would be very hard to prove that Sheppard could discern that and use it to his advantage. (Upset or grieving does not equate to mentally incompetent)

    Then there is always the possibility that Sheppard had Wallace forcibly taken to the Wraith, hence murder. (Not the Sheppard we know and love ) The inadmissible conversation between Sheppard and McKay in Sheppard’s quarters would tend to disprove this allegation. It would also be much harder to cover up.

    Justification is also an issue related to assisted suicide, but not part of the charges, per se.

    This does not address any charges that could be brought against Landry as a result of the outcome of the court martial.

  5. #5

    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    There are two ways to answer this, I think.

    1) This is a thread related to the court martial thread, so Sheppard is already in deep trouble and the shoe has dropped.

    The other way is 2) looking at the picture as though we don't have to make up charges if we don't see any, then the question is: What has he actually done?

    Number 2 is easier than number 1 for me but that's because I haven't been following the flow of the CM thread to the point that I understand how Sheppard ended up in trouble, meaning the process of pinching him has eluded me.

    For number 2, just helping someone commit suicide is a crime. Most everyone will agree with that.

    The trouble here is we get presented with dramatic scenarios every week. And on occasion, to be honest, a person simply fails to do everything he or she can to stop someone from going forward with a suicidal act. Writers like to use this tact to establish jeopardy for characters.

    Examples.

    * Rodney, Lorne, Ronon, and Beckett let Sheppard suit up and get inside a rocket that was inside a moon and had no fuel. The moon is in a decaying orbit and there's a perfectly fine working Jumper on stand-by. Duh. But ... Sheppard was facing losing a team member and understandably upset. He'd been injured in the explosion early in the ep, deprived of oxygen, etc., but he looked okay, he talked okay, he spoke in complete sentences, just like Wallace. Rodney, Lorne, Ronon, and Beckett allowed him to choose not to get into the Jumper, all the while believing Sheppard was choosing to die. Rodney even asks him if he has last words.

    * An injured SGC team member decides it's his job to stay behind and release a weapon that will kill him (and the enemy in pursuit) and SG-1 lets him. Is an injured man any more or less capable of deciding to live or die than a sad man? What's his oxygen level? He looked a little pale to me. Were all his brain cells firing evenly? Is it okay for healthy team members to leave behind a wounded one (even when the wounded one says, Leave me!) in order to escape a dangerous situation?

    Some put emphasis on Wallace's status as a civilian, which usually prompts the posters in the other camp to make a laundry list of Wallace's crimes in order to show Wallace could and did grasp the stakes as well as a volunteer combatant. Combatants don't sign up to die, btw. Signing on the dotted line is not the same thing as saying, "I'll stay behind" or "Take me to the Wraith." Combatants join the military to serve. A reasonable expectation of jeopardy (before, let's say, heading out to work that day) for the people in the above scenarios doesn't work as a mitigating factor unless one agrees that committing multiple felonies (Wallace) against people involved in a top secret government project carries a similar and equally reasonable expectation of jeopardy.

    I could argue that taking a researcher on a top secret government project by force is inherently more dangerous that Stargate travel. But that's me.

    So for number 2, standing aside and letting someone who made a choice to die, die is not a crime on this show. It's not even rare. It's rough, though. Most of us are not rocket pilots, commanding officers, and warriors. Those folks are harder to identify with, and we know *they* know their jobs are dangerous. On the other hand, Wallace was written to feel more like us, like the everyday person, worse, like a poor sad every day person, the kind of person (like us) that we want Sheppard to protect. And he didn't.

    I don't think he can (or should) be court-martialed for that, although human history is full of people who have offended sensibilities more than they offended the penal code and they were made to pay for it dearly. I don't think Sheppard can be court-martialed for an act he was given approval to conduct, although that has happened when a peson's superior leaves them out in the cold. Landry is not that sort of superior. I don't think Landry would leave anyone twitching in the wind.

    I do apologize for only being able to handle my number 2 question.

    I do agree that for the most part the CM thread is for fun and chuckles. For the most part.
    Last edited by expendable_crewman; December 12th, 2007 at 02:42 PM.

  6. #6
    Brigadier General ReganX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Carpenter View Post
    In my opinion yes there was. Someone vital to the expedition was going to sacrifice him self if this didn't happen
    Voluntarily?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Carpenter View Post
    Don't quite see how you would stop him, if someone wants to kill them selves they will find a way even if its starving them selves. Best make it as quick and painless as possible if it can't be a useful death.
    • How did Wallace find out about the need for a Wraith to feed, or what that feeding would entail?
    • Did Sheppard tell him? If so, was it his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself?
    • If that was not his intention, why did he tell him about it in the first place?
    • Was Wallace put under any pressure (physical, psychological or emotional) to offer himself as a sacrifice?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    • How did Wallace find out about the need for a Wraith to feed, or what that feeding would entail?
    • Did Sheppard tell him? If so, was it his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself?
    • If that was not his intention, why did he tell him about it in the first place?
    • Was Wallace put under any pressure (physical, psychological or emotional) to offer himself as a sacrifice?
    Sheppard told Wallace the specifics of the situation. It’s right there on the video tape.

    On the tape there is no blatant attempt to convince or pressure Wallace into anything, just a calm telling of the facts. Since the conversation stops on the tape, we must assume that that was the end of the conversation.

    For my part, I think, it was ‘his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself.’ This is not a crime. Some version of what happens may be, but not the conversation we see on tape.

    Wallace was under the pressure of knowing that an innocent woman, a mother, was going to die because of him, by his hand, and he would be guilty of first degree murder when she did. Wallace was basically a good man. He chose to save his victim. The psychological and emotional pressure that he was under was of his own making, from his own guilt. Sheppard could not have provoked that reaction in someone that was not overwhelmingly remorseful.

    And, IMO, there is no possibility of physical force being used to get Wallace to the Wraith.

    The intention here is interesting, but the actual crime, if one exists, centers around Wallace’s death and what happened between the end of Sheppard’s conversation with Wallace and McKay’s entering the lab.

    1. How did Wallace get to the lab?
    2. What were the guards told? Who has authority over the SGC guards?
    3. Who released the Wraith or was it made to appear that he broke free?
    4. Did Sheppard conspire with the Wraith? Are there witnesses?
    5. How did Sheppard control the situation so that the Wraith was not killed when he started to feed?
    6. Where is the security camera footage of the incident?

    And:
    *How did Sheppard not get into immediate trouble for what he did?*

    The last one is the most interesting.

    We really need specific crimes for a court martial.
    It would be better to have some kind of hearing first to try to reconstruct what happened and interpret what is seen on the tape. Each of the principles should be interviewed (deposed or just informally questioned) in a fact finding hearing.

    In proper terms there should be an Article 32 hearing validate the charges.
    The Wiki description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_32_hearing

  8. #8
    Major General bluealien's Avatar
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-skyz View Post
    Sheppard told Wallace the specifics of the situation. It’s right there on the video tape.

    On the tape there is no blatant attempt to convince or pressure Wallace into anything, just a calm telling of the facts. Since the conversation stops on the tape, we must assume that that was the end of the conversation.
    Sheppards entire purpose was to get Wallace to kill himself. Do you think if Rodney hadn't volunteered to be Wraith fodder that Sheppard would be presenting those facts in the same way. He wanted to convince Wallace to take Rodney's place. Why else did he present the facts the way he did, showing pictures of Jeannies family. Why did Wallace need to see pictures of Jeannies family unless it was to put undue pressure on him to do "the right" thing, which in this case was to offer himself up as wraith fodder to save Rodneys life. Presenting those pictures was a blatent attempt to put pressure on Wallace. Emotional persuasion is just as effective as physical especially in the state of mind that Wallace was in, and I will argue that Wallace would have been in a heightened emotional state as he had just been told of his daughters death. This is NOT the same state of mind he was in when he arranged the kidnapping, or when he injected Jeannie with the Nanites. These previous actions had been done in desparation to save his daughters life, but now he had just been told she was dead, and I doubt anyone would be in a completely rational state of mind immediately after being told of the death of a loved one, especially your child.



    For my part, I think, it was ‘his intention or his hope that Wallace would choose to sacrifice himself.’ This is not a crime. Some version of what happens may be, but not the conversation we see on tape.
    By law it will be difficult to prove the intent behind Sheppards actions and that is the crux of the matter. But whichever way we want to spin this Sheppard wanted Wallace to die and presented the options with that in mind. He knew exactly which buttons to push as he knew that Wallace wasn't a hardened criminal so he laid on the guilt and it worked. So bottom line Sheppard succeeded in what he wanted to accomplish and therefore he is guilty of aiding and abetting a suicide, that alone is a criminal action. But most likely his superiors will turn a blind eye, which looks like they already have done. Sheppard solved a problem for them in a way, and there is no way they would want anything like this made public or even brought to military trial. I'm sure they want as little people as possible, including the military, knowing about life sucking aliens.

    ]Wallace was under the pressure of knowing that an innocent woman, a mother, was going to die because of him, by his hand, and he would be guilty of first degree murder when she did. Wallace was basically a good man. He chose to save his victim.
    Well that is what Sheppard wanted him to believe. But who knows really what would have happened.. Maybe the Wraith could have mustered up enough energy to finish those last few minutes, it did only take him minutes to achieve this anyway. Maybe Rodney could have come up with a solution, he has done so on numerous occasion in the past when the team or Atlantis were in danger. But we will never know, because Sheppard piled on the worst case scenario... He had to in order to get Wallace to do what he wanted. He had to act quickly if he was to be sure of saving Rodney,the same way Wallace had tried to act quickly knowing his daughter had very little time left. Both men were pushed to do desparate things in order to save those they loved. Sheppards actions here were Personal.. They were to save his friend. The fate of the Pegasus Galaxy did not come into it, otherwise Sheppard would have been considering ways of feeding the Wraith before, especially when millions of lives seemed to suddenly depend on this Wraith. Where was the urgency before to get the Wraith to help or even to think about feeding him. So again I don't think the fate of the PG galaxy played a part in Shep's decison. It was purely to save a friend and someone who meant a lot to him and was part of his "family".

    The psychological and emotional pressure that he was under was of his own making, from his own guilt. Sheppard could not have provoked that reaction in someone that was not overwhelmingly remorseful.
    The psychological pressure he was under was due to the fact that his daughter was dying and he had taken desparate measures to try and prevent this. He had admitted that he never wanted anyone hurt, he just wanted to save his daughter and yes he was remorseful. But Sheppard played on that remorse seconds after he told him his daughter had died..

    And, IMO, there is no possibility of physical force being used to get Wallace to the Wraith.
    You don't know that. You are assuming that Sheppard wouldnt go that far. But we don't know. I never thought he would go as far as talking someone into kiling themself. But either way, Sheppard didnt have to lay a finger on Wallace to get him to do what he wanted him to do. So the fact that he may not have used any physical force doesn't make what he did any less wrong. Pyschological force can be just as effective. The mind can be a very powerful thing and Sheppard played mind games with Wallace.

    The intention here is interesting, but the actual crime, if one exists, centers around Wallace’s death and what happened between the end of Sheppard’s conversation with Wallace and McKay’s entering the lab.
    The intent was there from the very first moment Sheppard spoke to Wallace so therefore a crime was committed. But proving that intent is another matter.

    1. How did Wallace get to the lab?
    2. What were the guards told? Who has authority over the SGC guards?
    3. Who released the Wraith or was it made to appear that he broke free?
    4. Did Sheppard conspire with the Wraith? Are there witnesses?
    5. How did Sheppard control the situation so that the Wraith was not killed when he started to feed?
    6. Where is the security camera footage of the incident?
    We will never know the answers to the above as the writers want us to fill in the blanks ourselves and each person will probably come up with a different version, and a different scenario.

    And:
    *How did Sheppard not get into immediate trouble for what he did?*
    Again impossible to say because no one but Sheppard was seen making the decisions, and again I think the writers have left us to make up our own minds on that as well. I'm going to assume here though that Sheppard acted alone as I cannot see Landry or anyone else in the SGC giving Sheppard the go ahead to feed someone to a Wraith. But I don't know how that explains the marines standing in the room especially with Sheppard addmiting openingly that he was going to falsify the report. If he had the backing of the SGC why falsify anything. Wouldn't that put Landry and other higher ups in a pretty bad light if there was an investigation. It's quite possible a Kavanaugh type person could be lurking around, and leaking something like this to the public could have huge reprecussions on the SGC.


    We really need specific crimes for a court martial.
    Aiding and abetting a prisoner in a suicide attempt. Not keeping the prisoner under guard and allowing him to roam free into dangerous and classified areas.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Sheppards entire purpose was to get Wallace to kill himself. Do you think if Rodney hadn't volunteered to be Wraith fodder that Sheppard would be presenting those facts in the same way. He wanted to convince Wallace to take Rodney's place. Why else did he present the facts the way he did, showing pictures of Jeannies family.
    As I said, I believe that was his intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Why did Wallace need to see pictures of Jeannies family unless it was to put undue pressure on him to do "the right" thing, which in this case was to offer himself up as wraith fodder to save Rodneys life. Presenting those pictures was a blatent attempt to put pressure on Wallace.
    Pressure is too strong a word for what Sheppard did. He told him the facts. Buried in those facts was a possible solution, a way for Jeannie not to die. Wallace will be guilty of Jeannie’s murder when she dies. He will be guilty of destroying her family. No matter why he injected her with the nanites, it was premeditated and he was rational at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Emotional persuasion is just as effective as physical especially in the state of mind that Wallace was in, and I will argue that Wallace would have been in a heightened emotional state as he had just been told of his daughters death. This is NOT the same state of mind he was in when he arranged the kidnapping, or when he injected Jeannie with the Nanites. These previous actions had been done in desparation to save his daughters life, but now he had just been told she was dead, and I doubt anyone would be in a completely rational state of mind immediately after being told of the death of a loved one, especially your child.
    His daughter’s death was not unexpected. Her brain had been reset and nanites were still ‘fixing’ her. But he had all kinds of reasons to be upset. He was about to become a murderer. He was guilty of espionage and he was being held in one of the most secure places on Earth. Has to make one wonder what they might do to you for stealing their secrets.

    I believe he was quite capable of seeing the big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    By law it will be difficult to prove the intent behind Sheppards actions and that is the crux of the matter. But whichever way we want to spin this Sheppard wanted Wallace to die and presented the options with that in mind. He knew exactly which buttons to push as he knew that Wallace wasn't a hardened criminal so he laid on the guilt and it worked.
    As I said, I agree that Sheppard knew what he was doing and did it very well when he spoke to Wallace. But what he said to him is in no way criminal. If a person commits suicide because someone has told him that he is worthless, the person making the value judgment is not guilty of causing the suicide. (They ought to feel pretty bad about it, though.)
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    So bottom line Sheppard succeeded in what he wanted to accomplish and therefore he is guilty of aiding and abetting a suicide, that alone is a criminal action.
    You are mixing the conversation with the action. They need to be considered individually.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    But most likely his superiors will turn a blind eye, which looks like they already have done. Sheppard solved a problem for them in a way, and there is no way they would want anything like this made public or even brought to military trial. I'm sure they want as little people as possible, including the military, knowing about life sucking aliens.
    Sheppard went back to Atlantis. That proves to me that he has his superior’s approval before of after the fact. I believe it was before, because I do not believe Sheppard could have done it alone or he could not have been sure the Wraith would not have been killed if he had tried it alone. I believe it could not have been after the fact because Landry would have hung him out to dry. See the ‘Did Sheppard act with permission of the SGC?’ thread.

    I agree, Sheppard never would be court martialed in public. But he would be punished.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Well that is what Sheppard wanted him to believe. But who knows really what would have happened.. Maybe the Wraith could have mustered up enough energy to finish those last few minutes, it did only take him minutes to achieve this anyway.
    It took long enough to get two guys, a gurney, and a body bag into the lab and a body into the body bag. There would have been no hurry.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Maybe Rodney could have come up with a solution, he has done so on numerous occasion in the past when the team or Atlantis were in danger. But we will never know, because Sheppard piled on the worst case scenario... He had to in order to get Wallace to do what he wanted. He had to act quickly if he was to be sure of saving Rodney,the same way Wallace had tried to act quickly knowing his daughter had very little time left. Both men were pushed to do desparate things in order to save those they loved.
    They both were desperate. Sheppard was desperate because Wallace chose to inject Jeannie with nanites that he already knew were dangerous.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Sheppards actions here were Personal.. They were to save his friend. The fate of the Pegasus Galaxy did not come into it, otherwise Sheppard would have been considering ways of feeding the Wraith before, especially when millions of lives seemed to suddenly depend on this Wraith.
    We don’t know what Sheppard was considering before Wallace kidnapped Jeannie. He may have been about to step through the gate on a hunt for a Wraith. He may have been out on Wraith hunts before and not caught any. He may have been worried sick about it. We don’t know. When Wallace kidnapped Jeannie everything else was put on hold. The Wraith was brought to Earth because of Wallace’s actions and he collapsed on Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Where was the urgency before to get the Wraith to help or even to think about feeding him. So again I don't think the fate of the PG galaxy played a part in Shep's decison. It was purely to save a friend and someone who meant a lot to him and was part of his "family".
    The Wraith was helping. He was helping with the replicator code not the nanite code.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    The psychological pressure he was under was due to the fact that his daughter was dying and he had taken desparate measures to try and prevent this. He had admitted that he never wanted anyone hurt, he just wanted to save his daughter and yes he was remorseful. But Sheppard played on that remorse seconds after he told him his daughter had died.
    Wallace was the one responsible for everything that had happened and for everyone being where they were. Better him than McKay or Jeannie or Sheppard.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    You don't know that. You are assuming that Sheppard wouldnt go that far. But we don't know. I never thought he would go as far as talking someone into kiling themself. But either way, Sheppard didnt have to lay a finger on Wallace to get him to do what he wanted him to do. So the fact that he may not have used any physical force doesn't make what he did any less wrong. Pyschological force can be just as effective. The mind can be a very powerful thing and Sheppard played mind games with Wallace.
    Yes he did. I thought they did a good job of showing the effect that had on Sheppard. And as morally ambiguous as that may be, it is not criminal.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    The intent was there from the very first moment Sheppard spoke to Wallace so therefore a crime was committed. But proving that intent is another matter.
    Again, the intent is not a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    We will never know the answers to the above as the writers want us to fill in the blanks ourselves and each person will probably come up with a different version, and a different scenario.
    For the court martial thread to work effectively, the answers to questions like these need to be addressed. It will be speculation, certainly, but in thinking through/discussing the possible scenarios we may be able to shed some light on which make the most sense. Each person will still have their own opinion about what happened, but we should be able to gain some insight into how others perceive the circumstances.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Again impossible to say because no one but Sheppard was seen making the decisions, and again I think the writers have left us to make up our own minds on that as well. I'm going to assume here though that Sheppard acted alone as I cannot see Landry or anyone else in the SGC giving Sheppard the go ahead to feed someone to a Wraith. But I don't know how that explains the marines standing in the room especially with Sheppard addmiting openingly that he was going to falsify the report. If he had the backing of the SGC why falsify anything. Wouldn't that put Landry and other higher ups in a pretty bad light if there was an investigation. It's quite possible a Kavanaugh type person could be lurking around, and leaking something like this to the public could have huge reprecussions on the SGC.
    I do believe that Landry gave Sheppard the authority to allow Wallace to sacrifice himself. Not a nice thing to think about no matter who is aware of it beforehand. The false report (which must have been okayed/signed by Landry before Sheppard returned to Atlantis) was for the IOA and whoever else would see the report outside the SGC. It was falsified for the same reason we have seen Woolsey falsify reports: it cuts down on the controversy; the questions from people who don’t have the complete picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Aiding and abetting a prisoner in a suicide attempt.
    Bingo! This is the criminal act, if it can be proven. Not the conversation, but the walk with Wallace into the lab and the facilitation of the feeding process. The conversation is meaningless. The intent is in the act.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluealien View Post
    Not keeping the prisoner under guard and allowing him to roam free into dangerous and classified areas.
    Sheppard would have been giving Wallace a tour of the lab in hopes of convincing him to help them with the nanites. We know that Wallace couldn’t help, but he could have told Sheppard that he might be able to and Sheppard could say he believed him, outside the SGC, it would be credible. Some version of this argument would work.

    Sheppard would not have been responsible for guarding Wallace. The NID would have brought Wallace there. The NID or, more likely, the SGC would be guarding him. Sheppard did not keep him safe in the lab, but Wallace was never wondering the halls.
    Last edited by blue-skyz; December 13th, 2007 at 07:27 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    John Sheppard Can't be court martial because the StarGate Program is Highly Classified. If he was Court Martialed it would be in public records under the Freedom of Information Act. Only a feel members of congress know of the StarGate Program, Joint Cheifs of Staff, President. And Few other countries. And Few Civilians. Beside it Was Wallace Choice he Would have gone to Prison for 2 counts of kidnapping, 1 Count of Murder, 1 Attempted Murder (Rodney McKay's Sister), And don't forget Using experimential treatment without promise of his daughter. Maybe he know it would be jail for a long time. So he let the Wrait take his life force. John just let him know all the options and the situation, what is at stake.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientThor View Post
    John Sheppard Can't be court martial because the StarGate Program is Highly Classified. If he was Court Martialed it would be in public records under the Freedom of Information Act. Only a feel members of congress know of the StarGate Program, Joint Cheifs of Staff, President. And Few other countries. And Few Civilians.
    Secret or not, there is still accountability - remember Makepeace and his friends? I doubt very much that there are any public records of them being sentenced, but they still were. If anyone working at the SGC or on Atlantis was found to be guilty of a crime, they would still have to pay the price, just secretly.

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientThor View Post
    Beside it Was Wallace Choice he Would have gone to Prison for 2 counts of kidnapping, 1 Count of Murder, 1 Attempted Murder (Rodney McKay's Sister), And don't forget Using experimential treatment without promise of his daughter. Maybe he know it would be jail for a long time. So he let the Wrait take his life force.
    I'm not a US citizen, and Ireland has thankfully abolished the death penalty but I'm pretty sure that a distinction is made between the death penalty and life imprisonment, with the former being the more severe penalty, am I correct?

    In any case, Wallace had not been tried, convicted or sentenced for any crime but even if somebody is sentenced to the death penalty, or to life imprisonment, it would still be murder if somebody (besides the designated executioner, at the designated time and place, in the former case) killed them.

    Even if Wallace's crimes merited the death penalty, and he had been duly sentenced, it would still be a crime for the Wraith to kill him, or for him to be in any way manipulated or pressured into allowing himself to be killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by AncientThor View Post
    John just let him know all the options and the situation, what is at stake.
    Wow, I hope the defence don't try to make that case. The above sentence alone would indicate that Sheppard was willing to allow a civilian to be fed upon by the wraith, and that he used pressure to gain his cooperation.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-skyz View Post
    Sheppard told Wallace the specifics of the situation. It’s right there on the video tape.

    On the tape there is no blatant attempt to convince or pressure Wallace into anything, just a calm telling of the facts. Since the conversation stops on the tape, we must assume that that was the end of the conversation.
    It's the "why" part that would trouble me. Why tell Wallace about the Wraith in the first place, why let him know that the Wraith needed to feed?

    If Wallace was in the custody of the SGC, then they had a responsibility to safeguard his welfare, which would include preventing him from harming himself and protecting him from being harmed by someone else.

    Fact: Wallace was fed upon by the Wraith.

    Possibility 1: Wallace allowed himself to be fed upon by the Wraith.
    Questions: Was Sheppard aware that he was going to do this? Why was Wallace in the lab with the Wraith? Once it became clear what Wallace's intentions were, was any attempt made to stop him or to stop the Wraith? Was there anything that could have been done to prevent Wallace from being fed upon by the Wraith? If not, why was it not done?

    Possibility 2: The Wraith broke free and fed on Wallace.
    Questions: Why was Wallace in the lab with the Wraith? How did the Wraith break free? Why was he not securely restrained to prevent him feeding on a human? What kind of security presence was in the lab at the time of the incident? What did they do to stop the the Wraith when he began to feed? Was there anything that could have been done to prevent Wallace from being fed upon by the Wraith? If not, why was it not done?

    Either possibility would mean that a strong case could be made for negligence.

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-skyz View Post
    Wallace was under the pressure of knowing that an innocent woman, a mother, was going to die because of him, by his hand, and he would be guilty of first degree murder when she did. Wallace was basically a good man. He chose to save his victim. The psychological and emotional pressure that he was under was of his own making, from his own guilt.
    Question on US law for clarification; if, hypothetically speaking, a person stabs somebody, injuring them so badly that they need a major organ transplant to recover, regrets his or her actions and wants to make amends, can a doctor remove the organ from the stabber and transplant it into their victim, when it will mean the death of the former?

  13. #13

    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    If Wallace was in the custody of the SGC, then they had a responsibility to safeguard his welfare, which would include preventing him from harming himself and protecting him from being harmed by someone else.
    That is the crux. We're applying RL values here and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because that's how we're going to react to the show.

    In RL, a person in custody becomes the responsibility of his or her jailers. This "responsibility" thing isn't absolute, though.

    I've read of in-custody suicides and homicides in police departments getting serious scrutiny by the public and oversight, whereas in prison, I think suicides are considered as having been been chosen by the person who killed himself, and responsibility in homicides go to the person who killed the victim.

    Since I did not see anything in the ep that makes me believe Sheppard acted outside the SGC's knowledge, and I believe Wallace volunteered, I'd like to propose a scenario.

    Let's say this happens on a Pegasus planet M0X-000. Same players, Wallace has Jeannie and Rodney in an alien bunker against their will ... there's a rescue by Sheppard and the team ... Wallace is captured, no longer in control ... but now the Bola Kai have come through the Stargate and taken control of the DHD.

    During her captivity, Jeannie was injured. Now she is dying and needs to get to Atlantis for immediate treatment.

    Taking the Stargate by force or making a rush for it is a bad choice because Jeannie can't run-- she was injured by Wallace's actions, plus she's never fired a P90 or a 9mm. She's more of a civilian than Wallace. She's the poster child for civilian, and 100% the victim, as she was in MC.

    If they try to run, Jeannie will be the slowest person and so will the person who is charged to help carry her. They're dead, in other words. If the whole group moves at Jeannie's speed, the whole group is dead.

    The Bola Kai say they'll let all but one person go through the Stargate. The Bola Kai don't want to fight. They've seen the team and their weapons in action. They know they, the Bola Kai, will win, but a lot of them will die in the process. The reason they haven't given up yet is they are starving.

    They are cannibals and will eat the person who stays behind.

    Choice A: Rodney volunteers and is restrained, after which Wallace volunteers to stay behind. Rodney is motivated by love for his sister, Wallace by guilt. Wallace is the stabber in ReganX's (see below) scenario. Jeannie needs immediate medical attention and she can't make a mad dash for the Stargate, and it's Wallace's fault she's injured. Therefore it's his fault the people who want to save Jeannie can't wait around (the safe choice) for a rescue by Atlantis when they miss their check-in.

    Wallace is not restrained. No one blocks the exit. Ronon stands aside, Sheppard stands aside, and Rodney stands aside. In choice A, Wallace is allowed to go to the Bola Kai and he dies horribly.

    Choice B: Rodney volunteers and is forcibly restrained, after which Wallace volunteers and the team restrains him, too, from acting on his choice. Then they hold Jeannie's hand while she dies, after which they either make a successful dash for the Stargate or wait for back-up.

    In choice B, the clean choice, by the way, Jeannie dies of injury inflicted by Wallace.

    Choice C: They restrain everybody successfully, there are no suicides, and they decide to make a dash for the Stargate. Jeannie dies horribly, and the person carrying her dies horribly. Wallace makes it back to Atlantis, where he promptly joins Sora the knife-wielding Genii lady in some abyss in the bowels of the city.

    As far as I'm concerned, if any of the above choices is written well, I'd watch.

    In choice A, though, removing the SGC from the scenario takes the edge off Sheppard, so it's less compelling than the actual ep, and since I've seen it before in sci-fi and regular TV, it's nothing uusual, just another hour of TV.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Fact: Wallace was fed upon by the Wraith.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Possibility 1: Wallace allowed himself to be fed upon by the Wraith.
    Questions: Was Sheppard aware that he was going to do this? Why was Wallace in the lab with the Wraith? Once it became clear what Wallace's intentions were, was any attempt made to stop him or to stop the Wraith?
    Wallace allowed himself to be fed upon and Sheppard did nothing to stop it. That is the story as I understand it.

    There was no attempt to stop Wallace. In fact, the lab with the Wraith is not the place Sheppard used to talk to Wallace, meaning Sheppard had to escort Wallace to the Wraith. The two of them, and probably security, walked down one or more hallways to a room in which Wallace was to die by being fed upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    ... was any attempt made to stop him or to stop the Wraith? Was there anything that could have been done to prevent Wallace from being fed upon by the Wraith? If not, why was it not done?
    The death of Wallace could have been prevented by keeping him in his locked room or anywhere at the SGC besides unprotected in a room with a Wraith.

    I also believe the Wraith knew better than to attack a human without permission, even after he was weak from starvation. As long as he was alive, he was alive. If the Wraith had pounced on a human, any human, without permission, it would be reasonable to assume Sheppard would have killed the Wraith to stop him or killed the Wraith while trying to stop him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Possibility 2: The Wraith broke free and fed on Wallace.
    Doesn't work for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Question on US law for clarification; if, hypothetically speaking, a person stabs somebody, injuring them so badly that they need a major organ transplant to recover, regrets his or her actions and wants to make amends, can a doctor remove the organ from the stabber and transplant it into their victim, when it will mean the death of the former?
    The doctor is commanded by his or her oath to "do no harm." The doctor cannot take the life of a patient, even when the patient is an admitted killer and the patient's victim (another patient) will live.

    A more likely scenario (and one I've seen with many variations in dramatic films and television) is the stabber kills himself in or near the hospital, so the body will be found right away. Before killing himself, he leaves behind instructions to use his organ(s) to save his victim. The doctor receives the instructions in a timely manner, the suicided stabber is rushed to the surgical suite, and there is a (bittersweet) happy ending and a toast to the (belated) integrity of the stabber.
    Last edited by expendable_crewman; December 16th, 2007 at 08:50 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancient Thor
    John Sheppard Can't be court martial because the StarGate Program is Highly Classified. If he was Court Martialed it would be in public records under the Freedom of Information Act. Only a feel members of congress know of the StarGate Program, Joint Cheifs of Staff, President. And Few other countries. And Few Civilians.
    Secret or not, there is still accountability - remember Makepeace and his friends? I doubt very much that there are any public records of them being sentenced, but they still were. If anyone working at the SGC or on Atlantis was found to be guilty of a crime, they would still have to pay the price, just secretly.
    I think AncientThor's point is accountability would not get assessed through court-martial. Court-martial is the public way of trying a defendant using facts to decide responsibility and punishment.

    To use a court-martial in the case shown in MC would be the equivalent of exposing the Stargate program to the general public.

    We saw Oliver North face court-martial, but only after the case was torpedoed wide open and framed on CNN.

    In fact, Oliver North wouldn't have seen a court if the events weren't torpedoed wide open and thrown under a spotlight by the public.

    We have secret military tribunals active in RL today. In the fictional Stargate bubble, that would be the way to go, or something close to it, not a court-martial.

    And if all the players in the tribunal were cleared to know about Stargate, then they'd all know Sheppard acted with the knowledge of his superiors, so we're back to square one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    In any case, Wallace had not been tried, convicted or sentenced for any crime but even if somebody is sentenced to the death penalty, or to life imprisonment, it would still be murder if somebody (besides the designated executioner, at the designated time and place, in the former case) killed them.
    For me, what happened to Wallace was not punishment for his crimes. I didn't see him getting a pitch off a roof by an official who was pissed at his crimes, and who should have (instead) hauled him down to jail for booking.

    Wallace got a chance to make a choice and made it. I understand the argument that it would have been nobler for Sheppard to leave him alone, let the SGC shove him into that lonely dark cell one day for the rest of his life.

    I have a large piece inside of me that wants to agree.

    If Sheppard had done that, Wallace, who was not yet a murderer, would have become one, and Jeannie would have died.

    Better for Sheppard if he'd done nothing. It was not noble for Sheppard to stand in a room and watch a Wraith feed upon a human. He got his hands dirty, and if you believe in karma, he lost some points there too.

    Wallace gets the bigger prize in this area for volunteering and then going through with it. After the wrong he did, in the end he comes off clean (and sympathetic) by making the sacrifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    The above sentence alone would indicate that Sheppard was willing to allow a civilian to be fed upon by the wraith, and that he used pressure to gain his cooperation.
    Yet that's what happened. I'll even concede "pressure" if you think telling a man who is about to become a murderer that his victim has people who loved her. Me, once I calmed down and got a little more objective, I decided Jeannie's status as mom, wife, and sister should have made the part that, yeah, people cared for her a no-brainer for a guy who ran a medical technology company.

  15. #15
    Brigadier General ReganX's Avatar
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by expendable_crewman View Post
    A more likely scenario (and one I've seen with many variations in dramatic films and television) is the stabber kills himself in or near the hospital, so the body will be found right away. Before killing himself, he leaves behind instructions to use his organ(s) to save his victim. The doctor receives the instructions in a timely manner, the suicided stabber is rushed to the surgical suite, and there is a (bittersweet) happy ending and a toast to the (belated) integrity of the stabber.
    With that scenario, would the doctor not have a moral responsibility to do everything possible to save the stabber's life, even if by saving the stabber, it means that the victim will not have access to the organs he or she needs to live.

    Which is the doctor's priority; the stabber or the victim who could potentially be saved?

  16. #16

    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    With that scenario, would the doctor not have a moral responsibility to do everything possible to save the stabber's life, even if by saving the stabber, it means that the victim will not have access to the organs he or she needs to live.

    Which is the doctor's priority; the stabber or the victim who could potentially be saved?
    The Hippocratic Oath prevents the doctor from doing anything less than his 100% all to save the stabber's life.

    Sticking with the organ transplant scenario ... stabber realizes the error of his ways, victim needs an organ to survive stabber's assault, stabber wants to sacrifice himself ,,, the stabber would not find a doctor (legally) who would take the organ unless the stabber was dead, as in beyond ressucitation, gone, bye, and no longer with us. That's why in drama when you see this the stabber takes his own life.

    Now, when the stabber says, "Then take my heart" or whatever (excuse the melodrama, lol), and points his own gun at his head, ask me if the cop who knows the situation, knows the stabber wants to give his heart to save his own victim, and who is maybe within arm's distance should try to stop the stabber from killing himself?

    That answer is yes, too. Even to keep the stabber from being a donor and saving the victim's life, he should try.

    Is he going to try? Probably not.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    It's the "why" part that would trouble me. Why tell Wallace about the Wraith in the first place, why let him know that the Wraith needed to feed?
    Wallace asks about his victim, Jeannie. Sheppard tells him Jeannie will die. He tells him the lengths that they have gone to to save her and why it didn’t work. Then he shows him the effects of his crimes, Jeannie’s husband and daughter and McKay’s blaming himself.

    None of this is a crime or is it coercion or pressure to do the right thing. Sheppard’s intention is apparent to the viewer and it seems that Wallace understands the implication, but Wallace would have had to draw his own conclusions and request to be allowed to do it.

    The conversation that Sheppard had with Wallace is there for the viewer to infer what actually happened, it is unnecessary to the framing of a crime. The SGC knows what happened, there are plenty of witnesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    If Wallace was in the custody of the SGC, then they had a responsibility to safeguard his welfare, which would include preventing him from harming himself and protecting him from being harmed by someone else.
    Exactly. The SGC made a decision that was advantageous to the ongoing war in Pegasus. McKay and the Wraith were necessary to that effort. The criminal that had caused the current situation wanting to sacrifice himself to save his victim and set things right would not have taken the pragmatic military officers of the SGC long to process. Their main concern would have been how to make it palatable to civilian sensibilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Fact: Wallace was fed upon by the Wraith.

    Possibility 1: Wallace allowed himself to be fed upon by the Wraith.
    Questions: Was Sheppard aware that he was going to do this? Why was Wallace in the lab with the Wraith? Once it became clear what Wallace's intentions were, was any attempt made to stop him or to stop the Wraith? Was there anything that could have been done to prevent Wallace from being fed upon by the Wraith? If not, why was it not done?
    The Wraith is still alive. Wallace is dead. The Wraith was allowed to feed. If the intention had not been to let him feed, the Wraith would be dead or further incapacitated and Wallace might still be alive but older. Sheppard had to ensure that the Wraith would not be harmed. There were, at least, one SGC guard in the lab and two in the observation room. The two guards from Atlantis were also in the lab. Sheppard had to be sure that these guards would follow order’s to stand down while the Wraith fed. The only way to be sure of that was if the order came directly from the SGC brass. So, no, nothing was done to prevent it or stop it. Sheppard, at least, had to release the Wraith and stand by while he fed.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Possibility 2: The Wraith broke free and fed on Wallace.
    Questions: Why was Wallace in the lab with the Wraith? How did the Wraith break free? Why was he not securely restrained to prevent him feeding on a human? What kind of security presence was in the lab at the time of the incident? What did they do to stop the the Wraith when he began to feed? Was there anything that could have been done to prevent Wallace from being fed upon by the Wraith? If not, why was it not done?
    This is version for the report. Sheppard was trying to talk Wallace into helping. It was unforeseeable. It happened so fast. He was so strong… blah, blah, blah… End result: The SGC accepts the explanation and Sheppard goes back to Atlantis.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Either possibility would mean that a strong case could be made for negligence.
    I agree. There is no way that I can think of that does not, in the best case, involve some form of negligence.

    What happened had to be witnessed by several SGC guards. Since, Sheppard, immediately following Wallace’s death, openly stated what the incident report would contain, in apparent opposition to what actually took place; we have to assume that that the contents of the report had been previously agreed to by the SGC brass (IMO).

    If Sheppard was given permission/approval/orders to do what he did, as appears to be the case, the SGC would have previously determined that the incident would be viewed by them as unavoidable or unforeseeable given the circumstances. This, of course, still does not make it legal or ‘right’ on our everyday, comfortable moral scale. Sheppard went back to Atlantis with his career in tact, but not his conscience.
    Quote Originally Posted by ReganX View Post
    Question on US law for clarification; if, hypothetically speaking, a person stabs somebody, injuring them so badly that they need a major organ transplant to recover, regrets his or her actions and wants to make amends, can a doctor remove the organ from the stabber and transplant it into their victim, when it will mean the death of the former?
    Good analogy. As far as I know, transplants are never done in cases where the donor can not survive without the donated organ. So even to save a victim, I doubt a transplant could be done, legally.

    But we know that what happened is never going to fit neatly into our legal system. What Sheppard did would never be considered ‘legal.’ But, In the balance of things, I think, it was just.

    There were no ‘clean’ solutions here. Our morality is offended because there is no solution that ends ‘they lived happily ever after.’ Our sense of justice is offended because it was not an evil man who wanted so badly to save his daughter that he disregarded other people’s lives and families. This is a muddy tale of desperation, bad outcomes, unthinkable choices, guilt, remorse, and selflessness. Sheppard’s solution is not legal or right, but it is the best one among the horrible possibilities. He chooses to allow the man responsible to right his wrong and takes the burden of how that was accomplished onto himself.

  18. #18

    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by blue-skyz View Post
    There were no ‘clean’ solutions here. Our morality is offended because there is no solution that ends ‘they lived happily ever after.’ Our sense of justice is offended because it was not an evil man who wanted so badly to save his daughter that he disregarded other people’s lives and families. This is a muddy tale of desperation, bad outcomes, unthinkable choices, guilt, remorse, and selflessness. Sheppard’s solution is not legal or right, but it is the best one among the horrible possibilities. He chooses to allow the man responsible to right his wrong and takes the burden of how that was accomplished onto himself.

    Oh, wow. That says it so well.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by expendable_crewman View Post
    The Hippocratic Oath prevents the doctor from doing anything less than his 100% all to save the stabber's life.

    Sticking with the organ transplant scenario ... stabber realizes the error of his ways, victim needs an organ to survive stabber's assault, stabber wants to sacrifice himself ,,, the stabber would not find a doctor (legally) who would take the organ unless the stabber was dead, as in beyond ressucitation, gone, bye, and no longer with us. That's why in drama when you see this the stabber takes his own life.

    Now, when the stabber says, "Then take my heart" or whatever (excuse the melodrama, lol), and points his own gun at his head, ask me if the cop who knows the situation, knows the stabber wants to give his heart to save his own victim, and who is maybe within arm's distance should try to stop the stabber from killing himself?

    That answer is yes, too. Even to keep the stabber from being a donor and saving the victim's life, he should try.

    Is he going to try? Probably not.
    Legally, is he putting himself at risk if he doesn't make every possible effort to save the stabber? As I understand it, organs can only be taken if the donor is brainstem dead but being kept alive artificially, with no chance of resuscitation and (in Ireland) this has to be verified by two independent doctors before organs can actually be taken, and the next of kin has to be consulted first.

    Here, carrying an organ donor card lets the doctors know your wishes, but they still need the permission of your next of kin before they take any organs.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: What crimes could/should Sheppard be charged with?

    Quote Originally Posted by expendable_crewman View Post
    That is the crux. We're applying RL values here and that's not necessarily a bad thing, because that's how we're going to react to the show.

    In RL, a person in custody becomes the responsibility of his or her jailers. This "responsibility" thing isn't absolute, though.

    I've read of in-custody suicides and homicides in police departments getting serious scrutiny by the public and oversight, whereas in prison, I think suicides are considered as having been chosen by the person who killed himself, and responsibility in homicides go to the person who killed the victim.

    Since I did not see anything in the ep that makes me believe Sheppard acted outside the SGC's knowledge, and I believe Wallace volunteered, I'd like to propose a scenario.

    Let's say this happens on a Pegasus planet M0X-000. Same players, Wallace has Jeannie and Rodney in an alien bunker against their will ... there's a rescue by Sheppard and the team ... Wallace is captured, no longer in control ... but now the Bola Kai have come through the Stargate and taken control of the DHD.

    During her captivity, Jeannie was injured. Now she is dying and needs to get to Atlantis for immediate treatment.

    Taking the Stargate by force or making a rush for it is a bad choice because Jeannie can't run-- she was injured by Wallace's actions, plus she's never fired a P90 or a 9mm. She's more of a civilian than Wallace. She's the poster child for civilian, and 100% the victim, as she was in MC.

    If they try to run, Jeannie will be the slowest person and so will the person who is charged to help carry her. They're dead, in other words. If the whole group moves at Jeannie's speed, the whole group is dead.

    The Bola Kai say they'll let all but one person go through the Stargate. The Bola Kai don't want to fight. They've seen the team and their weapons in action. They know they, the Bola Kai, will win, but a lot of them will die in the process. The reason they haven't given up yet is they are starving.

    They are cannibals and will eat the person who stays behind.

    Choice A: Rodney volunteers and is restrained, after which Wallace volunteers to stay behind. Rodney is motivated by love for his sister, Wallace by guilt. Wallace is the stabber in ReganX's (see below) scenario. Jeannie needs immediate medical attention and she can't make a mad dash for the Stargate, and it's Wallace's fault she's injured. Therefore it's his fault the people who want to save Jeannie can't wait around (the safe choice) for a rescue by Atlantis when they miss their check-in.

    Wallace is not restrained. No one blocks the exit. Ronon stands aside, Sheppard stands aside, and Rodney stands aside. In choice A, Wallace is allowed to go to the Bola Kai and he dies horribly.

    Choice B: Rodney volunteers and is forcibly restrained, after which Wallace volunteers and the team restrains him, too, from acting on his choice. Then they hold Jeannie's hand while she dies, after which they either make a successful dash for the Stargate or wait for back-up.

    In choice B, the clean choice, by the way, Jeannie dies of injury inflicted by Wallace.

    Choice C: They restrain everybody successfully, there are no suicides, and they decide to make a dash for the Stargate. Jeannie dies horribly, and the person carrying her dies horribly. Wallace makes it back to Atlantis, where he promptly joins Sora the knife-wielding Genii lady in some abyss in the bowels of the city.

    As far as I'm concerned, if any of the above choices is written well, I'd watch.

    In choice A, though, removing the SGC from the scenario takes the edge off Sheppard, so it's less compelling than the actual ep, and since I've seen it before in sci-fi and regular TV, it's nothing uusual, just another hour of TV.
    This is a great analogy. It reduces the issue to its basics and makes it very easy to understand the alternatives. It removes the sentimentality and the sympathy for Wallace that cloud the actual circumstances.

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