Are the Ori gods?

[Darien]

In the stargate universe of course. I guess it all comes down to what the actual definition of god(s) is. What we know is that they are extremely powerful beings, who live on a different plain of existance. They have created humans (in their galaxy at least) and they have those humans worship them. Does that make them gods? Does creating life, making those beings worship them qualify them of some kind of a god status?

[Flyboy]

I think you raise an interesting point.

A similar argument is "does magic exist?" Simply, yes it does. Everything about the 21st century is magic. From computers to remote controls. We however do not consider it magic, because we understand it. Anything can be understood, even a wizard with a magic want could be subjected to laboratory experiments, and we could work out, with the right technology, what happens inside the wand, what happens on a particle and atomic level, if it manipulates the quantum make of of the universe. Put simply, we would turn magic into technology once more. The wand would be a quantum state manipulator or such like. Even the paranormal, ghosts etc, would be redefined once we can understand their composition and causes, they'd become less magical and more matter of fact.

So Gods... let's assume in reality gods or a God exists. For them to exist they must have some kind of physical and measurable imprint on the universe, something to be measured. I'd argue that according to ancient Greek definitions, the Ori and Ancients are in fact gods, but by the modern definitions, that status can only be held by the original creator of everything. Something that is ineffable. It does however concern me that even such a creator, could be quantified with the right technology.

In ancient times, gods didn't have to be creators. Now they do generally... so it depends on your definition.

[Darien]

^^ Yes it all comes down to the definition. If you consider the Abrahamic religions' definition about the one God who's the creator of everything then they are ceratinly not gods. But they are the creators of the humans who worship them which might provide a strong argument for them being gods.

[Corpze]

That question really can't have any answer. It's a matter of believing. Someone might think they are gods, someone, on the other hand, might think they aren't. There can be no argumency about this matter, really, as no one can actually define god. It's all about what people think and choose to believe.

[jenks]

In the stargate universe of course. I guess it all comes down to what the actual definition of god(s) is. What we know is that they are extremely powerful beings, who live on a different plain of existance. They have created humans (in their galaxy at least) and they have those humans worship them. Does that make them gods? Does creating life, making those beings worship them qualify them of some kind of a god status?

As far as I am concerned, any sort of 'god' would have to be at least supernatural to be considered a god, so no, I don't think the Ori qualify. I don't think creating life makes them any closer to being divine either, humans will probably have done it by the end of the century...

[Flyboy]

As far as I am concerned, any sort of 'god' would have to be at least supernatural to be considered a god, so no, I don't think the Ori qualify. I don't think creating life makes them any closer to being divine either, humans will probably have done it by the end of the century...

But define supernatural!

Everything can be explained, even spirits and demons could be explained with the right scientific understanding, a demon could be an actual life form that exists in a different quantum dimension... Everything can be eventually catagorised and normalised.

[Cory Holmes]

It's been stated pretty explicitly that the Ori, the Ancients, and any other ascended being is most definitly NOT gods. They simply have an understanding of the physical laws of the reality that are far removed from us.

Look no further than Merlin's device. All it was is a simple dimension-shift toy with a keyboard attatched to it and that fully rendered him (and his research) invisible to the Ori and Ancients. He was able to beat them through simple technology. That alone proves that they're far, far less than any "god", no matter which descriptor you use.

[jenks]

But define supernatural!

Everything can be explained, even spirits and demons could be explained with the right scientific understanding, a demon could be an actual life form that exists in a different quantum dimension... Everything can be eventually catagorised and normalised.

No they couldn't, by definition science only deals with the natural world. Anything supernatural is not governed by the natural laws of the universe, by definition it cannot be explained, not by science anyway.

[Flyboy]

This is my point, definitions are man made.

Science is, at the heart of it, JUST an explanation of the way things work. That is ALL science is. A description of how things work. The term supernatural is a term for some phenomenon that we cannot even begin to understand how it works (actually it relates to it being specifically divine, but thats another matter). Point is, if it exists, it has to work somehow. Meaning science can explain it. Not with today's science, but then what ever can be? Science invents new concepts all the time to explain things, Gravitons, Anti-matter etc... heck we may just have to come up with God-Particles in future, but rest assured, as soon as we start being able to detect it, we can classify it and work out how it works, even if it means coming up with new theoretical particles or similar.

[s09119]

This is my point, definitions are man made.

Science is, at the heart of it, JUST an explanation of the way things work. That is ALL science is. A description of how things work. The term supernatural is a term for some phenomenon that we cannot even begin to understand how it works (actually it relates to it being specifically divine, but thats another matter). Point is, if it exists, it has to work somehow. Meaning science can explain it. Not with today's science, but then what ever can be? Science invents new concepts all the time to explain things, Gravitons, Anti-matter etc... heck we may just have to come up with God-Particles in future, but rest assured, as soon as we start being able to detect it, we can classify it and work out how it works, even if it means coming up with new theoretical particles or similar.

He's right. Supernatural things are only supernatural because we currently lack the technology and know-how to understand how they function. But just like gravity, spaceflight, and weather patterns, we will probably one day be able to figure it out.

[Guest]

As far as I am concerned, any sort of 'god' would have to be at least supernatural to be considered a god, so no, I don't think the Ori qualify. I don't think creating life makes them any closer to being divine either, humans will probably have done it by the end of the century...

What I would consider as god is a being that has always been on a higher level... the Ori ascended to a higher level so they would not fit the profile...

Ra in ancient Egypt Mythology would apply as he is on a higher level beyond the physical (known) world... not to mention that from him all creation came into being...

Personally though the belief in God/gods and godessses is a very resticted way of looking at the world and existence, If you can't explain it then it's an act of "God" or Witchcraft...

It's all just superstition and paranioa from the dark ages that the modern world should have left there, only to be known about through history books not Holy wars that affect a more civilized (Apparently) Age...

[Dutch_Razor]

Google says:

the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in ...

So , nope

Although there are other definitions by which he is but those are more forms of speech.

[Lúmendil]

This is indeed a very interesting issue. Like said before, it all depends on your definition of a god. SG-1 and Atlantis have both given us countless examples of this.

The most obvious one is the Goa'uld. They impersonate gods, and to us that is perfectly clear. However, they possess technology that is incomprehensible to some of their worshippers; they see it as magic or supernatural powers. To some that is enough qualification to be a god.

Also, there's the Asgard. According to Stargate mythology, they impersonated the Norse gods and still did so in other worlds until they committed mass euthanasia. The point they made was that in order to protect the peoples of those worlds, they had to pretend to be gods until the people reach such an evolutionary state that they are capable of comprehending what the Asgard really are.

Then there's the Ori. They live on a different plane of existence than we do and possess technology / powers that we still can't understand. If we were to come across them without any knowledge about them, we may feel differently than we do now. However, knowing their history, the way they evolved and having actually seen it happen (ascension), we know better. I still think it's completely understandable that some of the peoples that don't have the proper knowledge see them as gods.

What I'm trying to say is that it all depends on your point of view and how you define the term god. Also, how much knowledge and technology you have has a huge effect.

[jenks]

This is my point, definitions are man made.

Science is, at the heart of it, JUST an explanation of the way things work. That is ALL science is. A description of how things work. The term supernatural is a term for some phenomenon that we cannot even begin to understand how it works (actually it relates to it being specifically divine, but thats another matter).

No it's not. The term supernatural is for things that by definition can not be understood, because they are not natural, and are not governed by the laws of the universe.

Point is, if it exists, it has to work somehow.

I agree, but that's only because it's my view that the supernatural doesn't exist.

Meaning science can explain it. Not with today's science, but then what ever can be? Science invents new concepts all the time to explain things, Gravitons, Anti-matter etc... heck we may just have to come up with God-Particles in future, but rest assured, as soon as we start being able to detect it, we can classify it and work out how it works, even if it means coming up with new theoretical particles or similar.

All true, but nothing to do with the supernatural. Supernatural isn't a term for something that isn't understood by science, it's a term for something that can't be understood by science, a phenomenon that is outside nature, for lack of a better word - magic. In fact the dictionary word it better:

su·per·nat·u·ral
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

[Flyboy]

No it's not. The term supernatural is for things that by definition can not be understood, because they are not natural, and are not governed by the laws of the universe.



I agree, but that's only because it's my view that the supernatural doesn't exist.



All true, but nothing to do with the supernatural. Supernatural isn't a term for something that isn't understood by science, it's a term for something that can't be understood by science, a phenomenon that is outside nature, for lack of a better word - magic. In fact the dictionary word it better:

su·per·nat·u·ral
–adjective
1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

I appreciate your argument, but I would then put it to you that ceases to be supernatural when we can understand it. Natural Law as we understand it NOW, makes ghosts and such supernatural, assuming they exist, once we could quantify them, they cease to be supernatural as they become explainable by a new natural law that we have discovered/invented.