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How far is too far? Sheppard's Actions in MC.

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    I posted this idea in the ‘More Sam’ thread in Season 4, but it belongs in MC.

    In MC there is no mention of either Carter allowing the Wraith to leave Atlantis or Landry allowing him to come to Earth. It is obvious, to me, considering the effort needed on both ends to maintain security, that both leaders participated in the decision. Their omission is purposeful. Showing or mentioning either of the leaders would have diminished the impact of Sheppard’s actions in MC. He appears to act alone, on his own authority. I think that was the point.

    Looking closely at the number of people involved, from the crowd of SGC guards in the gateroom when the Wraith comes through the gate to the SGC guards in the room where Wallace is killed and in the observation room looking into it, it seems apparent that Sheppard, actually, was acting with the authority of his superiors. His being back on Atlantis further strengthens this view.

    The Hot Zone is similar to MC in that it leaves an impression with the viewer (intended, I think) that is not true under closer scrutiny. It is the episode that is always pointed at as the time Sheppard disobeyed Weir’s orders. He did disobey her orders, of course, but what he actually did was take control of a dangerous situation that Weir was mishandling. His actions were necessary.

    These two episodes are interesting because they both give Sheppard an aura of willfulness/lawlessness/defiance/cockiness/disregard of authority or principles (can’t think of the right word), but underneath they maintain his integrity. Sheppard is not guiltless in either episode, there is just more there then is initially apparent.

    Sheppard stays the good guy when you look closely. His honor, though tarnished, is maintained as it should be for the hero in a continuing series. The viewer gets the thrill of the first impression and the episode continues to be interesting on continued viewings as the details reveal themselves.

    I like the presentation. Effective writing, I think.
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      Originally posted by blue-skyz View Post
      I posted this idea in the ‘More Sam’ thread in Season 4, but it belongs in MC.

      In MC there is no mention of either Carter allowing the Wraith to leave Atlantis or Landry allowing him to come to Earth. It is obvious, to me, considering the effort needed on both ends to maintain security, that both leaders participated in the decision. Their omission is purposeful. Showing or mentioning either of the leaders would have diminished the impact of Sheppard’s actions in MC. He appears to act alone, on his own authority. I think that was the point.

      Looking closely at the number of people involved, from the crowd of SGC guards in the gateroom when the Wraith comes through the gate to the SGC guards in the room where Wallace is killed and in the observation room looking into it, it seems apparent that Sheppard, actually, was acting with the authority of his superiors. His being back on Atlantis further strengthens this view.

      The Hot Zone is similar to MC in that it leaves an impression with the viewer (intended, I think) that is not true under closer scrutiny. It is the episode that is always pointed at as the time Sheppard disobeyed Weir’s orders. He did disobey her orders, of course, but what he actually did was take control of a dangerous situation that Weir was mishandling. His actions were necessary.

      These two episodes are interesting because they both give Sheppard an aura of willfulness/lawlessness/defiance/cockiness/disregard of authority or principles (can’t think of the right word), but underneath they maintain his integrity. Sheppard is not guiltless in either episode, there is just more there then is initially apparent.

      Sheppard stays the good guy when you look closely. His honor, though tarnished, is maintained as it should be for the hero in a continuing series. The viewer gets the thrill of the first impression and the episode continues to be interesting on continued viewings as the details reveal themselves.

      I like the presentation. Effective writing, I think.
      I recently re-watched Insiders, an SG-1 ep with a lot of Baal clones being held in the SGC. Every prisoner's room was on camera, and so were the corridors outside the rooms.

      That got me thinking of other eps where camera playback outside labs has been key, such as the ep where Cam and Sam end up out of phase. Landry et al use cameras to show Cam and Sam never made it out of the lab, and they use the lab's interior camera to see what time they disappeared.

      So unless the writers forgot all that has gone before you are right. Report or no report, there's a video record of what happened in the lab.

      Oh, and ... sorry ... lol ... but Sheppard was wrong in Hot Zone ........

      Comment


        Originally posted by expendable_crewman View Post
        Oh, and ... sorry ... lol ... but Sheppard was wrong in Hot Zone ........
        There we are going to disagree.

        Spoilered for off topic discussion of The Hot Zone
        Spoiler:

        When we did the marathon, I looked only at what was going on with Sheppard and Elizabeth.
        This was from the marathon with a little editing from when I put the link in my Adrift review.
        I’ve gotten more positive about it since then.
        http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=163

        This was put together from stuff written for another thread in November so it’s kind of choppy.

        The main issues:
        * Peterson can defeat the ancient technology of the doors and get to areas where he could infect others. This has nothing to do with anything Sheppard does.
        * Elizabeth and Grodin never come up with a definitive way to stop Peterson. They never even consider sending anyone after him. They never ask for advice.

        Go back and really watch The Hot Zone and follow only what happens between Sheppard, Weir and Peterson.

        Elizabeth initiated a voluntary quarantine. Sheppard talked to her immediately after her announcement. This is three minutes after he could have come to the control room, but she made him stay there anyway (no where near the affected area). He stayed there. Her decision was arbitrary (and punitive?).

        Peterson started to make his way toward the control room. McKay told Elizabeth that Peterson could defeat the ancient technology and get to areas where he could infect others. This is a security situation. Sheppard sees the danger of having a sick, unbalanced man heading to the control room and possibly though the gate. Elizabeth basically ignores the problem. Elizabeth and Grodin never came up with a definitive way to stop him. He just kept going toward the control room. They never even considered sending anyone after him. The transporters were down, but he didn’t need them to get to the control room.

        The transporters were turned on for Sheppard. (Bates had to agree with Sheppard's evaluation of the situation.) However, the transporters were never necessary for Peterson to get to populated areas or the control room and the stargate. He was going to get there anyway and no one in the control room ever said anything about sending security to stop him. Elizabeth never took any kind of direct action. At this point it was a security/military situation and Elizabeth did not call it. Sheppard did what needed to be done. He did stop Peterson, but, by a fluke, he escaped into a transporter and on to the mess hall. (The transporters could have been turned back off.)

        Bates was never part of any discussion of how to solve the problem. He never suggested sending security after Peterson. No action was ever taken.

        McKay thought of the EMP; Sheppard thought of using the naqahdah generator. And it took Sheppard and McKay ganging up on Elizabeth to get her to let them use it.

        Elizabeth was clearly out of her element, but did not seek advice from the right people. She was not the one qualified to be making these decisions and she failed to recognize it. She never admitted to any possibility that she may have been to severe with the quarantine where Sheppard was concerned or that she would have had to let him try to solve the problem, anyway.

        Elizabeth later says that she is the one to decide what is a military situation. Sheppard says that some times he sees things differently. They never finish the conversation.

        The thing is they were both right and wrong. Sheppard took the hit and continues to every time disobeying orders comes up.

        Had the problem been addressed correctly, as a security issue, there would have been no question of insubordination. Hence, military leadership has its benefits.

        I have to say, I love the Hot Zone argument second only to Miller’s Crossing.
        sigpic

        Comment


          Originally posted by blue-skyz View Post
          There we are going to disagree.

          Spoilered for off topic discussion of The Hot Zone
          Spoiler:

          When we did the marathon, I looked only at what was going on with Sheppard and Elizabeth.
          This was from the marathon with a little editing from when I put the link in my Adrift review.
          I’ve gotten more positive about it since then.
          http://forum.gateworld.net/showpost....&postcount=163

          This was put together from stuff written for another thread in November so it’s kind of choppy.

          The main issues:
          * Peterson can defeat the ancient technology of the doors and get to areas where he could infect others. This has nothing to do with anything Sheppard does.
          * Elizabeth and Grodin never come up with a definitive way to stop Peterson. They never even consider sending anyone after him. They never ask for advice.

          Go back and really watch The Hot Zone and follow only what happens between Sheppard, Weir and Peterson.

          Elizabeth initiated a voluntary quarantine. Sheppard talked to her immediately after her announcement. This is three minutes after he could have come to the control room, but she made him stay there anyway (no where near the affected area). He stayed there. Her decision was arbitrary (and punitive?).

          Peterson started to make his way toward the control room. McKay told Elizabeth that Peterson could defeat the ancient technology and get to areas where he could infect others. This is a security situation. Sheppard sees the danger of having a sick, unbalanced man heading to the control room and possibly though the gate. Elizabeth basically ignores the problem. Elizabeth and Grodin never came up with a definitive way to stop him. He just kept going toward the control room. They never even considered sending anyone after him. The transporters were down, but he didn’t need them to get to the control room.

          The transporters were turned on for Sheppard. (Bates had to agree with Sheppard's evaluation of the situation.) However, the transporters were never necessary for Peterson to get to populated areas or the control room and the stargate. He was going to get there anyway and no one in the control room ever said anything about sending security to stop him. Elizabeth never took any kind of direct action. At this point it was a security/military situation and Elizabeth did not call it. Sheppard did what needed to be done. He did stop Peterson, but, by a fluke, he escaped into a transporter and on to the mess hall. (The transporters could have been turned back off.)

          Bates was never part of any discussion of how to solve the problem. He never suggested sending security after Peterson. No action was ever taken.

          McKay thought of the EMP; Sheppard thought of using the naqahdah generator. And it took Sheppard and McKay ganging up on Elizabeth to get her to let them use it.

          Elizabeth was clearly out of her element, but did not seek advice from the right people. She was not the one qualified to be making these decisions and she failed to recognize it. She never admitted to any possibility that she may have been to severe with the quarantine where Sheppard was concerned or that she would have had to let him try to solve the problem, anyway.

          Elizabeth later says that she is the one to decide what is a military situation. Sheppard says that some times he sees things differently. They never finish the conversation.

          The thing is they were both right and wrong. Sheppard took the hit and continues to every time disobeying orders comes up.

          Had the problem been addressed correctly, as a security issue, there would have been no question of insubordination. Hence, military leadership has its benefits.

          I have to say, I love the Hot Zone argument second only to Miller’s Crossing.
          If you love the Hot Zone argument, I'll meet you in the season one ep thread, but first ... gotta get seconds of the holiday dinner!!

          http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?t=5690&page=6
          Last edited by expendable_crewman; 01 January 2008, 03:00 PM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by expendable_crewman View Post
            If you love the Hot Zone arugument, I'll meet you in the season one ep thread
            Here's a link to a repost of my previous argument in the Hot Zone thread of S1

            http://forum.gateworld.net/showthrea...98#post7505598
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              Originally posted by Shan Bruce Lee View Post
              Shep didn't murder him. He might have shown a darker side of himself in suggesting it (but even that is questionable.) At the end of the day it was Wallace who made the decision.
              yes your right on
              wallace chose to inject his daughter with untested tech
              wallace chose to kidnap mckays sister
              wallace chose attempted murder by then injecting her
              wallace chose himself and his interests every step of the way
              wallace chose to accept responsiblity for all his choices and fix his mistakes
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              Comment


                Attempted murder? Naa, more like manslaughter...

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                  Originally posted by jenks View Post
                  Attempted murder? Naa, more like manslaughter...
                  fair enough

                  great sig by the way
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                    I really didn't like what Sheppard did. Also, I hate that the writers had to engineer a moral dilemma by making a heroic character less than heroic.

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                      I like the fact the writers chose to 'go there' in this episode and give a bit of wish fulfillment to some fans and bring out a reaction of utter disapproval and dismay for others. It makes me like the characters even more that they tread into morally grey zones and make decisions that some of us want to make and cannot, or will not. Plus it stimulates polarized discussion of this nature. I'm starting to think the quality of Atlantis eps explore a wider moral and character range than even SG1 did.

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