How did 'Todd' know...

[ciannwn]

If you reply to this post with another post yapping on about the possibility of Michael telling the ther Wraith about an Alpha Site, so help me God, I will spontaneously neg-rep you for failing to read my posts before replying with the exact same things twice.

The reason why I mentioned it again is as follows. You said -

So as far as anyone knows for sure, Atlantis blew up into smithereens with the Atlantis expedition evacuating through the gate and now operating out of an Alpha Site.

I was agreeing with you about Wraith believing Atlantis personnel were now operating from an Alpha Site. I admit I did repeat myself but it was a lead in to further speculation. Yes, Michael could have mentioned the main events of 'Allies' without giving Atlantis away but why should he have wanted to keep the secret? He tried to save his own skin by going over to the Atlantis expedition's side in 'No Man's Land' - seeing as he turned against fellow Wraith at this point it makes no sense for him to feel any kind of loyalty towards the Atlantis expedition after they RV'd him again and tried to kill him twice. Why would he want to protect people he was prepared to feed to Iratus bugs in 'Vengeance'?

I finished up by saying that it's all to do with typical 'plot vagueness'. The writers just threw in the barest explanations they could get away with to account for Michael turning up in 'Vengeance'. He was picked up by Wraith, they turned against him, he managed to escape, he somehow managed to get hold of lab equipment and start producing his super army on several different planets. Meanwhile the Wraith didn't attack Atlantis just because they didn't and Todd knows that the Atlantis people were betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith for some unexplained reason.

Maybe we'll learn the full details in a future story but I'm not holding my breath. After all, it means coming up with a convincing reason as to why Wraith didn't attack Atlantis if Michael told them about it or why Michael didn't tell Wraith about it after 'Misbegotten'.

[freelance1]

Todd didnt know about atlantis and where it is ... subspace beacon gave up his position and two hive ships destroy each other ... and what about michael he didnt gave up position because nobody knows where new atlantis is ... remember the spy from "missing" he wanted the address so he knew about atlantis but didnt know where is it ...

[rarocks24]

The city is defenseless while using the cloak since the shield can't run simoultaneously. There is no reason why the Wraith would fear the Atlantis shield since they know we have a very limited amount of power to power it.

It's possible the Wraith knew about the geothermal platform. If they did, then they'd have to have assumed the city has ample power. And besides, all the Wraith know is that at some point during the siege, the city had enough power to power the shield.

We do not have what the Ancients had: Unlimited ZPMs and drones. And we're still hiding out existence, indicating that we still fear a Wraith attack.

Not saying that isn't true. But even if you had resubmerged the city, you wouldn't exactly be putting that measure of defense to the test would you?

For the love of puppies, please read my posts before replying to them. I am not arguing against the possibility of Michael telling other Wraith about how he was abducted by the survivors of the former City of Atlantis and then experimented on on an Alpha Site.

Why not mention Atlantis in the first place? We've betrayed him twice. There's no reason for him to keep the existence of Atlantis secret. Michael and the other Wraith survivors are probably keeping Atlantis a secret because of the shame they brought to the Wraith. They did after all find the location of Atlantis and not tell them. And then got captured and experimented on and their ship stolen. To know that they were in on the experiment, even if to double cross later down the road, would be seen as...well, how would you see it?

I am arguing against the possibility that Michael told other Wraith about how the city of Atlantis is still around and none of them elected to attack it.

Fair enough. However, let me pose this to you...Michael's hive was in orbit around Lantia for a substantial time. Why? It just so happens it breaks orbit to go attack a nearby hive and just so happens that the Daedy comes in and assist said hive...that doesn't strike you as a bit odd? Two cruisers pick up a beacon that just magically went off and decided to investigate. Not to mention all the rumors and the worlds such as the Genii who know of Atlantis's survival. Once one world knows, it's going to leak out.

If you reply to this post with another post yapping on about the possibility of Michael telling the ther Wraith about an Alpha Site, so help me God, I will spontaneously neg-rep you for failing to read my posts before replying with the exact same things twice.

Because you're right and they're wrong? Because you know more than anybody else here? You have a window into Joe's and the other writers/producers head? Let them say why they believe Michael would have mentioned an alpha site and/or Atlantis. And let them argue, that's what the forum is for.

[s09119]

Todd never said he knew about Atlantis, he just wanted to talk with Sheppard. I'm pretty sure the Wraith know by now that the Atlanteans are still alive (on another world), though they may still think the city itself is gone. So that point's covered now.

As for the alliance, I'm sure word has spread by now about the Wraith who got their butts kicked by the humans when they tried to double-cross the Atlanteans. I mean, someone probably caught wind of what was going on or heard from a Wraith who knew someone aboard the traitorous hives. *shrug*

And as for the cloak, the Wraith should know by now about that, seeing as;
1. They were fooled into thinking the city was destroyed.
2. It was then made apparent that Atlantis was still around.
Surely they'd have figured out the most likely reasons by now (a cloak).

Quoted to reiterate my point since I don't feel like typing up a new post

[ciannwn]

Todd didnt know about atlantis and where it is ... subspace beacon gave up his position and two hive ships destroy each other ... and what about michael he didnt gave up position because nobody knows where new atlantis is ... remember the spy from "missing" he wanted the address so he knew about atlantis but didnt know where is it ...

Atlantis was on Lantea when Michael was picked up from the 'Misbegotten' planet. It was still there when Sheppard and co met up with him again in 'Vengeance' because it didn't leave for it's new location until the end of 'First Strike' (the last story of Season 3). There would have been plenty of time for the Wraith to attack the city if they learned it still existed and thought such a course of action would be a good idea.

Why not mention Atlantis in the first place? We've betrayed him twice. There's no reason for him to keep the existence of Atlantis secret. Michael and the other Wraith survivors are probably keeping Atlantis a secret because of the shame they brought to the Wraith. They did after all find the location of Atlantis and not tell them. And then got captured and experimented on and their ship stolen. To know that they were in on the experiment, even if to double cross later down the road, would be seen as...well, how would you see it?

There are several possibilities concerning what Michael could have said.

"We were trying to find the location of Earth. A new, rich, food supply would have solved our problems and brought an end to our civil war."

"We discovered that Atlantis was still there but they did this to us before we could tell anyone."

"We found their new base but they did this to us before they could tell anyone."

The second and third possibilities don't explain how Todd knew the Atlantis expedition had been betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith. We'd have to assume he (a) made a lucky guess and managed to hide any surprise on hearing that the expedition had tried to work with Wraith before or (b) he was told about the 'Allies' events after he'd been taken to Atlantis and we just didn't get to see it on TV.

The only way round it at the moment is to accept that Todd made a lucky guess or was told about it when he got to Atlantis. Michael, meanwhile, didn't pass on valuable information in an attempt to gain some standing in the hive which picked him up. The other Wraith rejected him but he managed to escape before they could subject him to a mind probe or they didn't think he was trying to hide anything so didn't bother with a mind probe.

Maybe the real questions we should be asking are -

Have TPTB worked out how Michael escaped the rescue hive and why he kept the secret in readiness for a big revelation later on in Season 4?

Or

Did they neglect to let us have the details because they couldn't figure it out themselves and were hoping viewers wouldn't ask awkward questions?

[rarocks24]

Need to quote people better buddy. I don't believe Freelance1 said that.

And as I said, it's all speculation until we have an actual answer from TPTB. Alas', I don't believe the questions will be answered anytime soon, so there's always the realm of fanfiction till Kindred.

If I were to guess, he got far enough away from the colony and did what Wraith do, hibernate. Once the threat had passed, he stopped hibernating. But that's just a guess.

[ciannwn]

Need to quote people better buddy. I don't believe Freelance1 said that.

Ooops. I've now edited my previous post. Maybe I shouldn't try to reply to more than one person in the same post.

And as I said, it's all speculation until we have an actual answer from TPTB. Alas', I don't believe the questions will be answered anytime soon, so there's always the realm of fanfiction till Kindred.

SGA is a fanfiction writers' dream. There are so many stories they can come up with in attempts to explain all the things that the scriptwriters don't.

If I were to guess, he got far enough away from the colony and did what Wraith do, hibernate. Once the threat had passed, he stopped hibernating. But that's just a guess.

There's no doubt that Michael was rescued by a hive ship because he says this in 'Vengeance'.

"The hive that finally rescued me -- they could tell something was different. They sensed the human in me. To them, I was unclean. I barely escaped that hive with my life."

Fanfiction writers can have fun devising ways in which Michael managed to escape the rescue hive after he'd been rejected etc. etc. etc.

[FallenAngelII]

It's possible the Wraith knew about the geothermal platform. If they did, then they'd have to have assumed the city has ample power. And besides, all the Wraith know is that at some point during the siege, the city had enough power to power the shield.

The Wraith knew about the geothermal platform and fears it, assuming it can provide Atlantis with ample power, you say? And despite all of this, they still mounted an attack on Atlantis in "The Siege" but have since grown to fear it so much they're too scared to attack again?

All the Wraith know for sure is that during the siege, we didn't have th power to stay alive for too long or the power to beat them, which is why we either:
A) Blew up to city to prevent them from getting to it.
B) Pretended to blow up the city to trick them.

We have the power to do bupkis.

Not saying that isn't true. But even if you had resubmerged the city, you wouldn't exactly be putting that measure of defense to the test would you?

I do not understand what you're saying here.

Why not mention Atlantis in the first place? We've betrayed him twice. There's no reason for him to keep the existence of Atlantis secret. Michael and the other Wraith survivors are probably keeping Atlantis a secret because of the shame they brought to the Wraith. They did after all find the location of Atlantis and not tell them. And then got captured and experimented on and their ship stolen. To know that they were in on the experiment, even if to double cross later down the road, would be seen as...well, how would you see it?

Why does John fall for Larrin trick in "Travelers"? Why did they forget about Jonas' existence ever since "Fallout"? Why did they not even think of asking Chaya for help when Rodney was on the verge of dying from a botched Ascension? Why are the Wraith occasionally so stupid even a ten yearold could kick their asses?

Shoddy writing.

And I'm sorry, are you arguing that Michael did tell others about Atlantis' continued survival or that he didn't? Because I was under the impression that you're arguing that he did, yet you just argued that he didn't.

Fair enough. However, let me pose this to you...Michael's hive was in orbit around Lantia for a substantial time. Why? It just so happens it breaks orbit to go attack a nearby hive and just so happens that the Daedy comes in and assist said hive...that doesn't strike you as a bit odd? Two cruisers pick up a beacon that just magically went off and decided to investigate. Not to mention all the rumors and the worlds such as the Genii who know of Atlantis's survival. Once one world knows, it's going to leak out.

Did you miss the part of "Allies" where it was revealed that the 2nd Hive was most probably in cahoots with the 1st Hive all along? It was those two Hives that together ventured off to fly on a little trip to the Milky Way galaxy. And not that it matters anyway because the two hives ended up being destroyed (they probably didn't share any information with the rest of the Pegasus Galaxy because they wanted to keep the Milky Way all to themselves).

How long ships orbit what has absolutely no relevance unless some other ships were in the vicinity. As far as we know, the Wraith do now have galaxy-wide monitoring systems of what ships are where. They can't be on one end of the galaxy and tell that a Hive is orbiting X planet in Y part of the galaxy. In "The Seer", a fellow Hive just happened to be close enough to pick up the signal of the "friendly" Hive.

Rumors schmumors. They probably went back to check once or twice, but the city was cloaked every time, making it impossible for them to find it. What were they to do, fly close to the surface and search every single nook at cranny of Lantea in the hopes of flying into an invisible city?

Because you're right and they're wrong? Because you know more than anybody else here? You have a window into Joe's and the other writers/producers head? Let them say why they believe Michael would have mentioned an alpha site and/or Atlantis. And let them argue, that's what the forum is for.

And I don't have the right to say what I believe? And logic kinda suggest certain things.

[ciannwn]

Why does John fall for Larrin trick in "Travelers"? Why did they forget about Jonas' existence ever since "Fallout"? Why did they not even think of asking Chaya for help when Rodney was on the verge of dying from a botched Ascension? Why are the Wraith occasionally so stupid even a ten yearold could kick their asses?

Shoddy writing.

Why were Sheppard and co so confident that Lucius wasn't going to be a security risk? Luckily for them he only talks about Atlantis to Kolya, not a Wraith worshipper.

LUCIUS: Wait, wait. You can’t kill me. Look, I’m the perfect bait. If Sheppard finds out that I’m in trouble, he’s gonna come rescue me. We’re really close.

KOLYA: You and Sheppard?

LUCIUS: Yeah.

KOLYA: I don’t think so.

LUCIUS: Then Weir, or Rodney, or Carson. We’re like the best of friends.

KOLYA: And how is it you know them so well?

LUCIUS: I spent some time in Atlantis. It’s the nicest place I’ve ever been, best time I ever had. It’s like, I remember like I was there this morning.

KOLYA: Tell me more.

Sorry, but I just had to add that one in as another possible example of shoddy writing.

And logic kinda suggest certain things.

Unfortunately, logic could be overturned at any time by a bit more shoddy writing.

[FallenAngelII]

Why were Sheppard and co so confident that Lucius wasn't going to be a security risk? Luckily for them he only talks about Atlantis to Kolya, not a Wraith worshipper.

You're using that as proof of that "Atlantis can now take on tens of Hives attacking all at once!"? Even shoddier writing.

If Atlantis were the real world, there is no way Atlantis would ever let Lucius go. Not only did he know about Atlantis, he'd read classified mission reports. Not only that, he had done a few pretty bad things to the expedition.

No one in their right mind would let him go. But they did, without punishing him at all except for curing his victims.

More shoddy writing is not proof of anything.

[ciannwn]

You're using that as proof of that "Atlantis can now take on tens of Hives attacking all at once!"? Even shoddier writing.

You gave some examples of shoddy writing. I just added that as a further example of how SGA sometimes falls prey to shoddy writing.

If Atlantis were the real world, there is no way Atlantis would ever let Lucius go. Not only did he know about Atlantis, he'd read classified mission reports. Not only that, he had done a few pretty bad things to the expedition.

No one in their right mind would let him go. But they did, without punishing him at all except for curing his victims.

I agree with you 100% here. Lucius was meant to be a comic buffoon (whatever a lot of viewers thought about the results) so, according to 'scriptwriter logic', this justifies Sheppard and co having a fit of not being in their right minds. Well, that's what it comes across as to me. I just regard it as shoddy writing.

More shoddy writing is not proof of anything.

What I meant is that people in these forums can come up with all kinds of logical reasons as to why this happened or why that didn't happen. Does this guarantee that a scriptwriter won't come up with another explanation which results in a lot of us saying things like "That was lame" or "That was yet another example of shoddy writing"?

Anyway, back to the question asked in this topic. How did Todd know that the Atlantis expedition had been betrayed the last time they worked with Wraith? All we can really say here is that it was never explained in 'The Seer'. Perhaps it relates to something mentioned in a previous story but none of us posting in this topic have made the connection. On the other hand, maybe we'll get an explanation in a future story and people will end up arguing over whether it's lame or convincing. Another possibility is that it could be akin to what you said in an earlier post -

So it all boils down to a giant plothole.

[rarocks24]

The Wraith knew about the geothermal platform and fears it, assuming it can provide Atlantis with ample power, you say? And despite all of this, they still mounted an attack on Atlantis in "The Siege" but have since grown to fear it so much they're too scared to attack again?

Good point. Although they (the Lantians) didn't know about it till Submersion.

All the Wraith know for sure is that during the siege, we didn't have th power to stay alive for too long or the power to beat them, which is why we either:
A) Blew up to city to prevent them from getting to it.
B) Pretended to blow up the city to trick them.

They knew the siege wasn't going to break. They devised a way to break the siege. Even if we did have enough power to hold the shield for years, we would have done the same thing eventually. Either way, the city was going to be made to look destroyed.

We have the power to do bupkis.

Where have I said otherwise?

I do not understand what you're saying here.

Disregard that, I was a little...well...we won't go into that.

Why does John fall for Larrin trick in "Travelers"? Why did they forget about Jonas' existence ever since "Fallout"? Why did they not even think of asking Chaya for help when Rodney was on the verge of dying from a botched Ascension? Why are the Wraith occasionally so stupid even a ten yearold could kick their asses?

Shoddy writing.

Shoddy writing has been the only thing that's protected Atlantis the past three seasons. As for Larrin, John was fouled by a character flaw, sorry if that hasn't dawned on you or conflicts with your obsession with Mcshep. I'm also pretty sure Chaya told us never to return there. As for the Wraith being so stupid on occasion, when haven't we been stupid? When has Earth not been stupid? The Wraith are not infallible.

And I'm sorry, are you arguing that Michael did tell others about Atlantis' continued survival or that he didn't? Because I was under the impression that you're arguing that he did, yet you just argued that he didn't.

What can I say, I like arguing both ways. I'm arguing that the Wraith or at least suspect Atlantis survived the siege, but that Michael and the other survivors (if there were any) kept it secret. I just like playing Devil's Advocate on occasion.

Did you miss the part of "Allies" where it was revealed that the 2nd Hive was most probably in cahoots with the 1st Hive all along? It was those two Hives that together ventured off to fly on a little trip to the Milky Way galaxy. And not that it matters anyway because the two hives ended up being destroyed (they probably didn't share any information with the rest of the Pegasus Galaxy because they wanted to keep the Milky Way all to themselves).

I wasn't aware the hive that attacked "our" hive was the same that left with the other hive towards Earth and got KO'd by the Orion.

How long ships orbit what has absolutely no relevance unless some other ships were in the vicinity. As far as we know, the Wraith do now have galaxy-wide monitoring systems of what ships are where. They can't be on one end of the galaxy and tell that a Hive is orbiting X planet in Y part of the galaxy. In "The Seer", a fellow Hive just happened to be close enough to pick up the signal of the "friendly" Hive.

Signal? There were no transmissions. They picked that hive up on sensors and intercepted. Besides, wasn't it stated in the episode where they come up with the estimate that there are at least 20 hives in Atlantis's quadrant? Pegasus isn't that big.

Rumors schmumors. They probably went back to check once or twice, but the city was cloaked every time, making it impossible for them to find it. What were they to do, fly close to the surface and search every single nook at cranny of Lantea in the hopes of flying into an invisible city?

Persistent rumors, coupled with an accident that nearly gave us away in Critical Mass suggests the city is there. The Wraith won't act simply on rumors, they don't have the unity for that. But to deny that the Wraith don't at least suspect the city survived.... besides, Todd didn't seem too surprised. Besides, isn't Atlantis terminally anchored to that location? It doesn't appear to have moved all that much in the past 3 years if the geothermal platform is still close to the city.

And I don't have the right to say what I believe? And logic kinda suggest certain things.

Where the frak did I say that? What I was getting at was that you were being an ass (and not the good kind) and threatened other debaters who have their own ideas.

[ciannwn]

But to deny that the Wraith don't at least suspect the city survived.... besides, Todd didn't seem too surprised.

If Todd was surprised we certainly didn't get any indication of it. We don't see his reaction when he finds himself in the city and he never says anything like "I am amazed to see that Atlantis still exists. We Wraith were convinced it had been destroyed."

Here's a very far fetched possibility involving Lucius.

LUCIUS: .. I perused some of the mission reports about the Ancient device that you guys discovered ...

McKAY: You did an awful lot of perusing while you were on the base.

LUCIUS: I peruse. It’s a gift.

Maybe he also perused information concerning the 'Allies' events along with all the mission reports he adapted for his stories.

Although Lucius tells Kolya about Atlantis I'm going to make a big assumption. The Wraith didn't attack the city while it was still on Lantea so Lucius didn't make a habit of talking about it during this time - this is why the news of its continued existence didn't reach them via one or more Wraith worshippers.

Lucius isn't the kind of person who refuses to talk if his life is in danger, though. Maybe something scared him into revealing information after Atlantis left for its new location. This is how Todd learned about the betrayal and why he wasn't surprised to find himself in the city. Lucius didn't know about the new planet, though, so the Wraith haven't the faintest idea where Atlantis is now. (Apart from Todd, that is.)

Yes, I know it's a really, really lame idea.

I'm also pretty sure Chaya told us never to return there.

I've just looked at a transcript for 'Sanctuary'. At the very end Cheya says that she wouldn't be allowed to let the Atlantis expedition go to her planet for protection. Then we get -

CHAYA: I can never leave.

Luckily for her the Others didn't notice her taking a brief holiday on Atlantis. Well, ascended beings don't know everything.

Sheppard then says - "Well, I could come and visit - (he smiles) if you don't mind flirting with somebody from another species."

Cheya doesn't tell him that he can't visit her for flirting purposes, though, and goes on to initiate 'sharing' with him.

If 'The Tao Of Rodney' had required assistance from Cheya the scriptwriter would have come up with a typical 'thin line' scenario. (An ascended Ancient can give as much help as a particular plot requires. ) As there was another solution to Rodney's dilemma she wasn't mentioned at all. It would have been nice if someone had said "Cheya's an ascended Ancient. Surely she'd know something useful," only for Sheppard to reply "That would be interfering so the Others would stop her."

[FallenAngelII]

They knew the siege wasn't going to break. They devised a way to break the siege. Even if we did have enough power to hold the shield for years, we would have done the same thing eventually. Either way, the city was going to be made to look destroyed.

Not relevant and not my point at all.

Where have I said otherwise?

Where you kinda argued the geothermal platform could help us do squat. Or that the Wraith feared our shield and weapons. That or someone else said it.

Shoddy writing has been the only thing that's protected Atlantis the past three seasons. As for Larrin, John was fouled by a character flaw, sorry if that hasn't dawned on you or conflicts with your obsession with Mcshep. I'm also pretty sure Chaya told us never to return there. As for the Wraith being so stupid on occasion, when haven't we been stupid? When has Earth not been stupid? The Wraith are not infallible.

That's my point. The reason why Todd "knew", yet none of the other Wraith seem to know is shoddy writing.

I wasn't aware the hive that attacked "our" hive was the same that left with the other hive towards Earth and got KO'd by the Orion.

My assumption. Maybe it's false.

Signal? There were no transmissions. They picked that hive up on sensors and intercepted. Besides, wasn't it stated in the episode where they come up with the estimate that there are at least 20 hives in Atlantis's quadrant? Pegasus isn't that big.

Signal as in the signal they picked up on the sensors. When was it ever stated that the Wraith have long range sensors as strong as those of Atlantis'?

Persistent rumors, coupled with an accident that nearly gave us away in Critical Mass suggests the city is there. The Wraith won't act simply on rumors, they don't have the unity for that. But to deny that the Wraith don't at least suspect the city survived.... besides, Todd didn't seem too surprised. Besides, isn't Atlantis terminally anchored to that location? It doesn't appear to have moved all that much in the past 3 years if the geothermal platform is still close to the city.

I never claimed they didn't suspect anything. But if they really wanted to, they could just send a few cruisers to the spot and fire at air (if we're cloaked) and destroy us all.

Where the frak did I say that? What I was getting at was that you were being an ass (and not the good kind) and threatened other debaters who have their own ideas.

"Because you're right and they're wrong? Because you know more than anybody else here? You have a window into Joe's and the other writers/producers head?"

You act as if my debunking others' theories is somehow the pinnacle of evil when it's just my stating my own theories.