Is it logical for Carter to go off-world?

[FallenAngelII]

It's hardly a smart move as the leader of an operation to, on your first day (or at least first day with things to do) in said position, make a horribly stupid decision.

You don't demonstrate you're committed or that you're brave or whatever by jumping headfirst into battle. The only thing you're demonstrating is stupidity. What if she'd been fed on? What then?

[marlinz360]

Well I think it is PERFECT

1. Carter is a Colonel not a civilian or a General.
2. She has the military experience
3. If something goes wrong, SGC or the IOA could send a replacement right away.
4. It would go against her personality.

[Xaeden]

I disagree with the person who said this wasn't the right time for such a mission. If ever there was a right time for her to lead a military operation (I'm not saying there is though) it would be now. The expedition just lost Weir. She was very beloved by all and it was a huge blow to everyone on Atlantis. Now just as a new person is coming to take her place, the most valuable and senior members of the expedition are captured off world. For moral purposes, her showing that she's going to proactively make sure not to leave them behind goes a long way - If Ronan can warm up to her after that anyone will. Meanwhile, she's new so her loss won't effect them greatly and if she didn't return they would just dial Earth and have orders on what to do right away. This isn't season 1 where the leadership had to be extra careful as a loss on that level could ruin the expedition and this isn't like real life where it takes time for a replacement to be sent - It would take Earth nothing to send a temporarily officer to take charge until those in the field could be rescued or if they're dead, until new leadership could be decided.

That said, I do think she is going to have to learn that she can't run off all the time, but it's her first real command so it's not all that surprising that she would do something like this. Someone has to tell her that she can't risk her life anymore as people here depend her more than those out in the field do. This is a big change for her and she is going to have to adjust.

So overall, I think her going off world worked. If she did it purposely as a way to introduce herself to everyone it wasn't an awful idea on her part as she needed something more than a speech to rally everyone behind her after such tragedy and change (sure it could've gone horribly wrong though). But if not it's in-character as she has yet to go through the same thing Jack did (learning that sometimes the best thing you can do is sit on your hands and wait while trusting the people you sent out there to do their jobs).

[cavalierlwt]

She's a Colonel, officially put in charge of Atlantis, she doesn't have to 'prove' herself. Leaders are there to lead, not act as infantry--which is all she did on the rescue mission.

Maybe in medieval times it was important for leaders to physically fight on the frontline, to inspire troops, but not in this modern age.

I seriously hope the writers don't do this frequently or it's going to be very distracting. We know Sam can kick butt if she has to, but her job has changed. She'll get her chance, the next 7 or 8 times that the Genii manage to overrun Atlantis!

[Leliana McKay]

I, too, think that her going offworld was wrong. She just arrived on Atlantis and like you said if they had all died that would have been quite problematic for the direct chain of command.
Even if she is military she should have stayed on Atlantis doing the job she just got assigned and not try to do her OLD job.

However, maybe we all still think too much about what Elizabeth would do. Sam is a very different character. Maybe her going offworld is normal for a military team leader (Hammond did go affworld a few times) or it will be explained in later episodes.

[Xaeden]

This is not a military base. This is a scientific expedition with lots of civilians. To many of those people she has a lot to prove, (Ronan for example) but that's not the point of doing something like that. The point is to improve moral which a good commander should aim to do and I can certainly see quite a few real ones doing that by trying to show that they aren't going to sit on their horses at the back of battlefield, barking orders (I used this example for visual purposes only, but I am still talking about modern day commanders). I agree though that she needs to learn that she can't treat this like her old job and I think she will over time, but I like that she didn't come in and automatically do her job by the book. It's more in-character for her this way.

Also, the military commander of Atlantis has long since been running into dangerous situations. If Carter died it would be no different than if Sheppard died other than the fact that the scientists have nobody to take care of their paperwork. Atlantis is in no danger right now and they have a connection to Earth. All in all what's the worst thing that would happen if she died? They dial Earth to tell them that Carter has not returned and ask what to do? If this was a base on the edge of enemy territory and a commander went on a mission when an attack could happen at any time and it could not get help for quite some time I'd agree with you. But this is situation is nothing like that.

[FallenAngelII]

This is not a military base. This is a scientific expedition with lots of civilians. To many of those people she has a lot to prove, (Ronan for example) but that's not the point of doing something like that. The point is to improve moral which a good commander should aim to do and I can certainly see quite a few real ones doing that by trying to show that they aren't going to sit on their horses at the back of battlefield, barking orders (I used this example for visual purposes only, but I am still talking about modern day commanders). I agree though that she needs to learn that she can't treat this like her old job and I think she will over time, but I like that she didn't come in and automatically do her job by the book. It's more in-character for her this way.

It doesn't improve morale to have the leader run into combat. It shows the starting of a pattern of bad decision-making, which lowers morale.

Also, the military commander of Atlantis has long since been running into dangerous situations. If Carter died it would be no different than if Sheppard died other than the fact that the scientists have nobody to take care of their paperwork. Atlantis is in no danger right now and they have a connection to Earth. All in all what's the worst thing that would happen if she died? They dial Earth to tell them that Carter has not returned and ask what to do? If this was a base on the edge of enemy territory and a commander went on a mission when an attack could happen at any time and it could not get help for quite some time I'd agree with you. But this is situation is nothing like that.

Yes, but he's the military commander. He's supposed to be on the front line.

People talk like leaders are easily replaced, like it only takes 5 minutes to gate a new leader there should Sam die. That's not how it works. The IOA has to choose a leader, which is an ardourous task. Then said leader has to pack and make everything in order to transfer.

What if Sam died in that facility and the Wraith attack tomorrow? What would they do then? Command would befall Lorne while Earth scrambled to gate in Jack, Landry and Hammond to collectively help out or whatever.

[Xaeden]

It doesn't improve morale to have the leader run into combat. It shows the starting of a pattern of bad decision-making, which lowers morale.

To you or even to a higher ranking officer than Carter, but I don't see why you don't understand that someone in such a position would like their military leader to be someone who fights for them.

Yes, but he's the military commander. He's supposed to be on the front line.

And now Carter is the military commander - They simply put someone in charge who could take over both Sheppard's and Weir's job. Because she also does more paperwork she's less of the military commander than Sheppard was and isn't supposed to do his former job to her fullest? Mind you I agree with you that she shouldn't be running ops all the time, but I found your argument a bit odd. Weir's job was that of a glorified adminstrator. Having someone around to do that isn't always necessary. Having someone who has military experience so they can properly order the military around when an attack is possible is far more important than having someone around just to do Weir's job. Sheppard reported to her, but they also had an arrangement when she would leave the military calls to him since she knew Atlantis was far better off that way.

People talk like leaders are easily replaced, like it only takes 5 minutes to gate a new leader there should Sam die. That's not how it works. The IOA has to choose a leader, which is an ardourous task. Then said leader has to pack and make everything in order to transfer.

No, I said it would only take them a short amount of time to get a temporary military officer over there to take charge until a new leader was picked or until Carter was rescued/returned on her own. Obviously, picking a permenant leader is a lot of work and involves a lot of politics.

What if Sam died in that facility and the Wraith attack tomorrow? What would they do then? Command would befall Lorne while Earth scrambled to gate in Jack, Landry and Hammond to collectively help out or whatever.

The Wraith won't attack tomorrow since they cannot reach Atlantis tomorrow. It took them 3 weeks to get to Atlantis once they appeared on their long range sensors last time and obviously Atlantis would not pick a planet where the Wraith were closer than that. So, if someone who was captured revealed Atlantis' location the IOA would not have to scramble that quickly (I doubt they would even be allowed to scramble - Earth would just send another military officer to take charge of Atlantis' defense). Also, this isn't the first time Atlantis has been without Weir, Sheppard, and Mckay - They all left for Earth for about a month after the first attack. One would assume they held off on off world missions, but even so what if the Wraith happened to check back soon after and Telya or Lorne had to take charge? Given that Earth couldn't send help this situation is no big deal compared to that.

[FallenAngelII]

To you or even to a higher ranking officer than Carter, but I don't see why you don't understand that someone in such a position would like their military leader to be someone who fights for them.

It's not her position. She's the leader of Atlantis. She was brought there to oversee the city, not to act as a soldier!

And now Carter is the military commander - They simply put someone in charge who could take over both Sheppard's and Weir's job. Because she does paperwork she's less of the military commander than Sheppard was and isn't supposed to do his job to her fullest?

Yes, because that's obviously what happened and because that'd be so logical. Why replace one leader when you can replace two leaders and pile up work on one single person instead of two? Sam was brought in to take over command of the city. John is still the military commander. It's all very wonky but as far as we know, John still is the military commander.

No, I said it would only take them a short amount of time to get a temporary military officer over there to take charge until a new leader was picked or until Carter was rescued/returned on her own. Obviously, picking a permenant leader is a lot of work and involves a lot of politics.

Yes, and obviously that's swell that they can randomly pick a temporary military leader. And he's gonna be very helpful when the Wraith attack right after Sam goes missing.

The Wraith won't attack tomorrow since they cannot reach Atlantis tomorrow. It took them 3 weeks to get to Atlantis once they appeared on their long range sensors last time and obviously Atlantis would not pick a planet where the Wraith were closer than that. So, if someone who was captured revealed Atlantis' location the IOA would not have to scramble that quickly (I doubt they would even be allowed to scramble - Earth would just send another military officer to take charge of Atlantis' defense). Also, this isn't the first time Atlantis has been without Weir, Sheppard, and Mckay - They all left for Earth for about a month after the first attack. One would assume they held off on off world missions, but even so what if the Wraith happened to check back soon after and Telya or Lorne had to take charge? Given that Earth couldn't send help this situation is no big deal compared to that.

We can't count on that. We can't say "Because the odds of something big happening are very low, the leader of the expedition should keep going off on military missions and staying at the front of line just for fun!".

Sam didn't even stay back! She was, most of the time, at the frontline. Which means that should they run into trouble, she'll be the one to go!

[Xaeden]

Yes, because that's obviously what happened and because that'd be so logical. Why replace one leader when you can replace two leaders and pile up work on one single person instead of two? Sam was brought in to take over command of the city. John is still the military commander. It's all very wonky but as far as we know, John still is the military commander.

Many have long since wanted to leader of Atlantis to be a military officer who would be completely in charge on everything. The IOA fought that idea since they thought that having a military officer in charge would give too much power to the U.S. government and they wanted to keep control balanced. All this did was take a job that was originally split into two roles for political purposes (not pratical purposes) and put them back together. Laundry, Hammond, and O'neill long since had the same job in the SGC and they managed just fine - They were in charge of the whole base which included both military and scientific endevours and went into danger when necessary (Jack and the puddle jumper, Laundry and the Prior...). But they were older and settled into adminstrative roles so leading a team into battle wouldn't have been a smart idea.

Yes, and obviously that's swell that they can randomly pick a temporary military leader. And he's gonna be very helpful when the Wraith attack right after Sam goes missing.

They did it in the Seige. What makes you think they wouldn't do it again if Weir was still in charge and the Wraith attacked? More so what makes you think it won't be helpful since it worked last time?

We can't count on that. We can't say "Because the odds of something big happening are very low, the leader of the expedition should keep going off on military missions and staying at the front of line just for fun!".

It's not that the odds are low, it's that they are capable of preparing for such a situation this time where as last time they were not. Earth pretty much cut off Atlantis' leadership in a time where they could not send help should something happen. This time they will have plenty of warning and can get that help from Earth. However, if you want to talk about low odds, the odds are near impossible that the Wraith can get more ships together than Atlantis can destroy with drones while the Asurans are attacking them. Hypothetically though, even if they could it would not be in their best interests to waste a large amount of ships on another seige when they are being attack by an enemy that could very well wipe them out if left unchecked. Plus they don't know about Atlantis and before they could get anyone to talk yet another rescue mission would be attempted.

Sam didn't even stay back! She was, most of the time, at the frontline. Which means that should they run into trouble, she'll be the one to go!

She has long since been the lead SG scientist on Earth and the one whom which Earth needed to continue existing. Yet she ran off into battle at the front of the line all the time. How is she more important now than she was then? I agree that she needs to learn to hang back, but it's something that won't come overnight.

[vaberella]

I can't wrap my head around Carter going off-world for anything except the a mission where she physically has to be there, ala Weir going on her last off-world mission, and that was a rare, in fact singular event.

There's no way she should have been on that mission to rescue Ronon. What's the purpose, what function did Carter serve there that some other soldier couldn't have performed? If the rescue team had been captured, who would have been in charge, Zalenka?

I think it's fine that Sam would give help in finding solutions, but I think she would be doing it from Atlantis. I know the TPTB want to give Carter a bigger role than Weir had, but it has to remain in the realm of reason.

You are not the only one who cannot wrap your head around it. I hated and despised when Weir went off world in Progeny. You have an elite bloody team for a reason...your presence is called when elite team or a team has made content and designated it safe and then worth your time to go off world to set up treaties and create alliances with the leaders of those respective planets.

Rescue missions? Are a "hell no" in your duty plan. I really had a problem with that scene, normally when Weir would do it; I would throw a fit because she should have not done it after her first instance of it. So I didn't have as much a fit with Carter since this is her first ep; I could also see the character insisting she's an actionary figure or was one for 10 years---going on missions, she also probably wanted to go off world to get some hands on experience with the wraith and unbeknownst at the time--alternatively the reps on that planet, and lastly her brain might be important---which is the weakest because Zelenka was going and he had as many abilities as McKay. In any event, I was unimpressed and I disliked seeing her off world.

She needs to stay on Atlantis unless her presence is specifically called in to do something with her leadership, foster alliances, and negotiations, and maybe scientific if her expertise is called. Other than those listed----I shouldn't expect to see her off world again, or I'll have a fit.

[FallenAngelII]

Many have long since wanted to leader of Atlantis to be a military officer who would be completely in charge on everything. The IOA fought that idea since they thought that having a military officer in charge would give too much power to the U.S. government and they wanted to keep control balanced. All this did was take a job that was originally split into two roles for political purposes (not pratical purposes) and put them back together. Laundry, Hammond, and O'neill long since had the same job in the SGC and they managed just fine - They were in charge of the whole base which included both military and scientific endevours and went into danger when necessary (Jack and the puddle jumper, Laundry and the Prior...). But they were older and settled into adminstrative roles so leading a team into battle wouldn't have been a smart idea.

Stargate Command was a military operation, run by the military for the military (and by extension the United States and the rest of the world). The Atlantis Expedition is still a civilian operation, only now with a military leader. However, that does not mean Sam automatically took over as leader of the military as well. I have yet to hear anything stating that.

Jack and Landry only went offworld when the situation really required them specifically. Are you saying the situation reaaaally called for Sam? That the operation would've failed without her? Because, really, what did she do on that rescue op that was so special?

They did it in the Seige. What makes you think they wouldn't do it again if Weir was still in charge and the Wraith attacked? More so what makes you think it won't be helpful since it worked last time?

He wasn't random, though. He was hand-picked by the IOA and sent over to take over. It didn't happen over night or over coffee. The IOA sat down, made a decision and then sent Ellis on his way.

And yes, obviously Ellis was the one to save the day last time, not Elizabeth (who negotiated an additional nuke), John, who piloted said nuke, the Daedalus who arrived in time to help and Rodney and Radek who came up with the cloak! No, Ellis did it all!

It's not that the odds are low, it's that they are capable of preparing for such a situation this time where as last time they were not. Earth pretty much cut off Atlantis' leadership in a time where they could not send help should something happen. This time they will have plenty of warning and can get that help from Earth. However, if you want to talk about low odds, the odds are near impossible that the Wraith can get more ships together than Atlantis can destroy with drones while the Asurans are attacking them. Hypothetically though, even if they could it would not be in their best interests to waste a large amount of ships on another seige when they are being attack by an enemy that could very well wipe them out if left unchecked. Plus they don't know about Atlantis and before they could get anyone to talk yet another rescue mission would be attempted.

The Asurans are still free (or so I assume) to attack Atlantis, should they find out its current location. Or any of the other known and unknown enemies of Atlantis. Or let's say an asteroid is about to hit the city and destroy it.

You do not take chances because "the odds of something happening to the city while I'm dead or injured are low".

And opening up a wormhole capable of transporting matter drains the ZPM considerably. You do not wander off to play hero when the situation doesn't require you to as leader of Atlantis subjecting the city to risk. I mean, what if someone attacked while Sam was off on the rescue mission? Or if she were to be captured, how long before they call for a new leader?

She has long since been the lead SG scientist on Earth and the one whom which Earth needed to continue existing. Yet she ran off into battle at the front of the line all the time. How is she more important now than she was then? I agree that she needs to learn to hang back, but it's something that won't come overnight.

Because it was her job to go off-world? Just like it's Rodney's job to go off-world. It isn't anymore, though.

[FallenAngelII]

She needs to stay on Atlantis unless her presence is specifically called in to do something with her leadership, foster alliances, and negotiations, and maybe scientific if her expertise is called. Other than those listed----I shouldn't expect to see her off world again, or I'll have a fit.

Too bad.

Spoiler:

I hear she goes off world in three episodes this season.

[andromeda_dan]

Her rank as colonel still gives that right be physically present on dangerous missions, regardless of whether her presence is needed or not, but for the sake of ratings, tptb threw her in there anyways. Mostly ranks of generals are kept at home base. Zelenka? He is the next most qualified scientist to Mackay and Carter, but since Mackay is missing and Carter will be riding shot gun, someone needs to have a free set of arm and head to do the hands-on science on this mission.

[Cautious Explorer]

Her rank as colonel still gives that right be physically present on dangerous missions. Mostly ranks of generals are kept at home base. Zelenka? He is the next most qualified scientist to Mackay and Carter, but since Mackay is missing and Carter will be riding shot gun, someone needs to have a free set of arm and head to do the hands-on science on this mission.

There may be special circumstances when Carter's particular qualifications may justify her going on a rescue mission, but this is not one of those times. There was no compelling reason for Radek to go along either.

The team goes on a mission to infiltrate a Wraith lab. When they're captured, Ronon comes back for help. There's no indication that Ronon needs anything except additional manpower and weapons to free his team. Ronon now knows the layout of the lab and an estimate of the Wraith presence there. This is a basic rescue mission that requires no scientific expertise or extraordinary measures. There is no good reason for either Carter or Zelenka to be there.