Why steal ZPM's from...? Spoilers for Adrift

[garhkal]

Do we have proof that they could've piled everyone into the jumpers and not have the CO2 scrubbers (or whatever air circulation the PJs use) fail too soon? It all depends on this, after all, right?

Well we know they can last with a full team for a long time (15+ hrs), as evidenced by the Ancient one, where they found that old wraith on the planet. Now i seriously doubt they would have gone there without knowing if they had enough air to get back..

But here's the thing.... if you were in that situation... if you were Sheppard or McKay.. would you let the survival of everyone in that base rest on the faint hope/random chance that you might be able to find in the database within the next 30 hours the information on how to make a ZPM (and the even more faint hope that you have the time and power to do so)? That's what we're talking about here... what the team *should* have done in that situation. Would your advice have been, "Spend the next 30 hours searching the database and hope you find how to make ZPMs"?

Actualy not only do they have to find the knowledge, but some way to MAKE them... which i seriously doubt they could do in 30 hrs.

[PG15]

Well we know they can last with a full team for a long time (15+ hrs), as evidenced by the Ancient one, where they found that old wraith on the planet. Now i seriously doubt they would have gone there without knowing if they had enough air to get back..

True, but that was only for 4 or 5 people. Who knows how many are still left in Atlantis.

And it just dawned on me that those who are in need of medical attention, i.e. Weir, would not be able to get said attention if they're stuck in Jumpers.

[Steven_the_Atlantean]

No why steal a ZPM from the ASurans.... well for one the two ZPMS still in the Milky way are needed. The Oddessy needs its for battles against the Ori to power its Asgard weapons and shields and stuff. And the Earth one is obviously needed if the Ori ever attack Earth. And besides the Asurans have plenty to spare.

Hmmm, Fair enough the Odyssey need it’s ZPM for the fight against the Ori, but the ZPM just powers the shield and increased the speed in hyperspace travel, the Asgard core, powers the Asgard weapon and other Asgard modifications. HOWEVER, it is not always engaging battle with the Ori and plus Atlantis need one ZPM to make the jump into hyperspace, so Who cares about the Odysseys ZPM, Earth can now Dial the Midway station and send its ZPM over. (Look the Ori knows that Earth has weapons that are capable of destroying their ships, if they do send a wave against Earth it would be a suicide) so they wouldn’t launch an attack anytime soon!

But who cares now, Now that the expedition stole the ZPM from the Asurans (its so obvious and predictable that they successed but as we all know there is always a cliff hanger or loss), Atlantis has two ZPM’s so it’s a great start for season four!
But how long will they last for????

[Gregorius]

You're talking about structural damage here. From what McKay said in the episode, the damage is to the power conduits, not the actual infrastructure of the city (therefore not meaning that the city is structurally weakened and more likely to break up on re-entry).

Have you seen the impact craters those asteriods left? I'd call that a severe weakening of structural integrety.

Plus, they would *have* to have the shield at full power covering the entire city for re-entry anyway.. so the shield would be taking the strain of re-entry, not the physical structure of the city.

I already considered that, but the main problem would be after re-entry when they land. The moment they have to power down the shield to make repairs the loads caused by the gravity could easily cause structurally damaged parts to collapse. Take for example the tower, it got serverely hit by the Asuran beam so it's logical to assume that besides the damage to the power conduits, who could also collapse due to a decreased structural integrity, there will also be structural damage to it.

But here's the thing.... if you were in that situation... if you were Sheppard or McKay.. would you let the survival of everyone in that base rest on the faint hope/random chance that you might be able to find in the database within the next 30 hours the information on how to make a ZPM (and the even more faint hope that you have the time and power to do so)? That's what we're talking about here... what the team *should* have done in that situation. Would your advice have been, "Spend the next 30 hours searching the database and hope you find how to make ZPMs"?

I wouldn't, I'd go for the shutting down completely and using the jumpers as lifesupport system so I could repair the power conduits properly solution.

You also have to keep in mind that this particular solution about looking for ZPMs in the database was more of a jest solution since more improbably things have happened.

I have to admit, I find it slightly amusing that you are using your "education in space engineering" to argue that you know better than the characters in the show how the technology of a flying, space-travelling ancient city works.

No, I'm using it to argue that I know better than the writers none of whom, as far as I'm aware of, have any education in the field of engineering and this reflects in McKay's line.

Small question: How would you repair a ship? Inside a dry dock, space, where you can access everything relatively easy and have little to no forces acting on your ship, or on a stormy sea, a planet, where there are extreme pressure forces acting on the ship, where it's tough to get to all the locations on the outside and where it's storming (See the storm as gravitational forces although it could storm on a planet)? (There is a reason that ST has the Planetia Utopia shipyards which are located in space and not on a planet)

Although set in the real(ish) world, SGA is a science fiction show and whilst you can extrapolate current knowledge to try and understand the principles involved, the premise of the show requires suspension of disbelief... and the conceit that the characters living within that universe who are specialists in that technology, know better than we do how it works and what best to do with it.

Sure, I could do that but as you said it's set in a real(ish) world and thus it will still be subjected to the same laws of physics as in our world. This makes it in my opinion either a fault of the writers or suddenly certain laws don't apply anymore in that world, such as common sense.

Personally, I'm happy to indulge that suspension of disbelief so, again, until you can show me that your eduction in space engineering includes Ancient city technology, structural limitations and shield technology, I'll continue to give precedence to McKay's expertise.

My education also includes common sense and quite the amount of mechanical engineering, those two are telling me that McKay, and thus the writers, are extremely wrong in this case.

[Gregorius]

True, but that was only for 4 or 5 people. Who knows how many are still left in Atlantis.

And it just dawned on me that those who are in need of medical attention, i.e. Weir, would not be able to get said attention if they're stuck in Jumpers.

Jumper shields, they are stuck within the expanded shields the jumpers generate and the equipment could easily run on Naquada generators. Besides that, it probably wouldn't take too long to repair the power conduits and raise Atlantis' shield again.

On a sidenote: Who creates a city space ship and doesn't make it airtight when the shield has to be turned off? Talk about poor engineering.

[Alipeeps]

Have you seen the impact craters those asteriods left? I'd call that a severe weakening of structural integrety.

Ahh but this isn't what we were talking about... we were talking about repairing the city's power supply/power conduits so that it can safely make planet-fall without needing to steal ZPMs from the Asurans to provide power. If you're now talking about having to also repair any structural damage from the asteroid impacts before being able to land the city, then you've changed the whole basis of the discussion... and it's going to take a LOT more than your theorised 60 hours leeway though using the jumpers to fix the asteroid damage we saw in Adrift.

I already considered that, but the main problem would be after re-entry when they land. The moment they have to power down the shield to make repairs the loads caused by the gravity could easily cause structurally damaged parts to collapse. Take for example the tower, it got serverely hit by the Asuran beam so it's logical to assume that besides the damage to the power conduits, who could also collapse due to a decreased structural integrity, there will also be structural damage to it.

But they wouldn't die of asphyxiation in the vacuum of space would they? Again, you're changing the parameters of the discussion here... the premise of this discussion is whether there was a better way for them to resolve the situation of them being trapped in space with failing power than the writers' solution of stealing ZPMs from the Asurans. How they manage landing the city on a planet and the consequences of the structural damage within a gravity environment is a whole different discussion... all that comes after they've dealt with getting enough power to get the city into hyperspace and avoid dying in space.

No, I'm using it to argue that I know better than the writers none of whom, as far as I'm aware of, have any education in the field of engineering and this reflects in McKay's line.

You don't actually know what education the writers have though, do you? Given that they've spent four years writing SGA scripts (and for some of them, more years writing SG1 scripts) and writing plenty of technical/scientific/engineering technobabble for McKay and Zelenka and Carter etc, it's reasonable to suspect that they either have some understanding of such principles themselves or have advisors on such matters or actually do some research. Plus, then there's the whole fiction part of the writing...

Small question: How would you repair a ship? Inside a dry dock, space, where you can access everything relatively easy and have little to no forces acting on your ship, or on a stormy sea, a planet, where there are extreme pressure forces acting on the ship, where it's tough to get to all the locations on the outside and where it's storming (See the storm as gravitational forces although it could storm on a planet)? (There is a reason that ST has the Planetia Utopia shipyards which are located in space and not on a planet)

Your analogy is specious. Repairing the city in space is not quite the easier/safer dry dock option you suggest... even if they could use the jumpers in the way you suggest, you're talking about people working in zero gravity, in bulky spacesuits (witness Radek's comment about the gloves making it harder/slower for him to complete the repairs on the control array) with every hour that passes bringing increased risk of encountering some other hazard and brining them closer to death by asphxiation. On a planet, however, the only force acting on the city is the relatively weak (as these things go) force of gravity and there is the advantage that if something does go wrong or the repairs can't be completed, or completed quickly, or even if the city suffers any structural collapse, the people won't die from lack of breathable atmosphere.

P.S. The reason the Utopia shipyards are in space is partly because a lot of the ships built are never meant to enter atmosphere and are not designed for planetary landfall and/or take-off.

Sure, I could do that but as you said it's set in a real(ish) world and thus it will still be subjected to the same laws of physics as in our world. This makes it in my opinion either a fault of the writers or suddenly certain laws don't apply anymore in that world, such as common sense.

My education also includes common sense and quite the amount of mechanical engineering, those two are telling me that McKay, and thus the writers, are extremely wrong in this case.

See, this is where I have an issue with your argument. I'm not saying there's necessarily anything wrong with your suggestion of using the jumpers etc.. we don't know that it would work and we don't know that it wouldn't work. It's an interesting alternative theory on how to resolve the crisis. The problem is, you are not presenting it as theory, you are presenting it as FACT. You are stating that the writers are wrong and you know better than them.

And despite your expertise in engineering, you still cannot account for the fact that you don't know anything about Ancient technology or architecture or structural compositions or jumper capabilities etc etc.. and McKay does.

When you present an alternative theory/suggestion for how they might have been able to resolve the crisis and discuss how or whether that might have worked, that's an interesting discussion. When you flat out state the writers are wrong and your solution definitely would have worked and they should have done what you suggest.. it comes across as kinda arrogant... and it doesn't allow for much discussion.

[Alipeeps]

On a sidenote: Who creates a city space ship and doesn't make it airtight when the shield has to be turned off? Talk about poor engineering.

We've seen this several times before. As mentioned in The Storm and in Echoes, the Ancients relied (too heavily, it would seem) on the fact that they had the shield. With no concerns about being able to power the shield, it would never occur to the Ancients to plan for scenarios where the shield wasn't available. They would probably consider it poor engineering to even think about having the city in space without the shield.

[FallenAngelII]

We've seen this several times before. As mentioned in The Storm and in Echoes, the Ancients relied (too heavily, it would seem) on the fact that they had the shield. With no concerns about being able to power the shield, it would never occur to the Ancients to plan for scenarios where the shield wasn't available. They would probably consider it poor engineering to even think about having the city in space without the shield.

And the reasons why are obvious:
They (and the Asurans) were capable of creating seemingly endless amounts of ZPMs and it's not like they used the city as some kind of luxury cruise. It's not like they moved around every few years.

[wise one]

And the reasons why are obvious:
They (and the Asurans) were capable of creating seemingly endless amounts of ZPMs and it's not like they used the city as some kind of luxury cruise. It's not like they moved around every few years.

atlantis expidtion must of wasted enough zpm's more than the ancients could make them