The Ancients Discussion Thread (Spoiler for all seasons of both shows).

[FallenAngelII]

I consider the Ancients to be an arrogant, egocentrical and manipulative race. They experiment with entire galaxies and make it dependend on them but when needed the most they are nowhere to be found.

1) Manipulative? How?
2) Egocentrical? How?
3) Arrogant? Yes.
4) Make people dependant on them only to abandon them? Which people besides a few of the races in "The Game" have been dependent on them?

We've seen it in the Pegasus Galaxy where they simply left the human civilizations they created when the Wraith attacked. Instead of fighting the Wraith after negotiations failed they simply retreated every Ancient to Atlantis and waited there until they could get escape to Earth, leaving the human civilizations they were responsible for to serve as food for the Wraith.

The Wraitoancient War lasted for approximately 100 years. It started when the Ancients first encountered the Wraith and sent a delegation to negotiate with them but were shot down and until the Ancients retreated to the Milky Way galaxy.

The Ancients fought for as hard as they could but kept losing more and more "territory" to the Wraith.

For the last 4-10 or so years (I don't remember how many years it were), the Ancients had been confined inside their own city, under siege from the Wraith. They were forced to fight from within their own city, constantly having the shield up and fighting for their very survival.

As one could see from 1x17 "Before I Sleep", the Ancients were in no fighting condition. They failed to even manage to get one of their shuttles into the city safely as it was easily shot down by the armada currently orbiting Lantea.

Despite winning many battles, the Wraith kept on coming. There seemed to be no end to their number. While the Wraith just somehow massproduced and kept on coming, the numbers of the Ancients were dwindling.

They realized that the more they fought, the more Ancients lives would be lost to no avail. Their numbers had dwindled to such a degree that the people who returned to the Milky Way were among the last generations of the Ancients.

So they did not, in any way, just decide to suddenly pack up and leave without a fight.

Not to mention their lovely attitude to anything not Ancient. Take the Asurans for example: They were designed to harm all living creatures save for the Ancients, which means they were willing to kill all humans who depended on them just to beat the Wraith.

No they weren't. They were programmed to fight the Wraith. There was, however, a fail-safe put in to prevent them to harm the Ancients. But they were in no way designed to destroy all living creatures besides the Ancients.

Also, their aggressive nature was not planned.

But when the Asurans turned out not to be the weapon they wanted it to be, they decided to destroy a sentient species just because it failed to live up to their expectations.

A sentient and evil race which has no problems killing human beings. Didn't you just rant about how stupid the Ancients were to create them in the first place? The Asurans were originally not planned to take on the forms of their masters and become sentient.

But they did... and also ruthless killers.

And it's the same with the Ascended, they do nothing unless their own lives are at stake and even then it's only due to the actions of rogue elements within their midst.

Actually, they refuse to meddle with the affairs of the lower planes even when they face utter annihilation. So steadfast are they in their resolve to not break their own rules that they'd quietly sit back and die just to allow Free Will to reign.

The Ori taking over the galaxy? Not a problem for the Ascended, at least not yet, since the Ori can't covert them so they allow the Ori to convert every living being in the entire galaxy until they become too big a threat.

The Ori are only converting so many people so that they can one day kill the Ancients (and their friends). Yet the Ancients allow it to happen because they refuse to abuse their powers.

Also the Ascended have the same twisted sense of morality as the corporeal Ancients.
Defending your corporeal friends? You are banished and forced to protect them and only them for all time, or you get kicked out of the Ascended planes.

Because they broke the rule of non-interference.

Helping a defenseless species by giving them technology? You are banished and the species is wiped from existance.
Being tricked and help ascending an evil being? You are forced to watch the actions of this being for all time, it's either that or fighting him for all eternity.

Said species used said technology to take over their neighbouring planets. They'd obviously become corrupt and mad with power. Also, Orlin broke the rule of non-interference and we're here shown why it's so important.

Oma "keeps breaking the same rule" by Ascending people, even after accidentally ascending Anubis. Of course, the way The Others dealt with it was stupid, but, hey, no one's perfect.

Also, did I mention that in "Threads", when Daniel asked who the other people in the diner were, Oma answered "[the] Others"? When prompted whether or not they were Ancients, Oma said "Some of them", meaning that a possible majority of them aren't. We don't even know whether or not the Ancients are in the majority.

Life sure must be fun when you're either a corporeal Ancient or an ascended one: You can pick a civilization and toy with it, and the moment they start doing things you dislike you can wipe them out.

The Ancients have never randomly picked a civilization and toyed with it and then wiped them out, ever. They created nano-bots that evolved, without it being planned, into evilish replicators.

"The Game" civilizations were abandoned for obvious reasons (the evacuation of the city).

And on top of that, you get to think up nice punishments for your peers without any regards for the concequences the punishment has for the "lower" beings.

The Anubis-issue was handled badly, I'll give you that. One huge mistake, however, does not an entire species define. If that were true, then we humans are all evil morons from birth because of people like Hitler.

Imo, they are the prototype of what you don't want to become as a civilization.

Or you could re-watch the show and stop making things up. You've broken the rule of only using canon evidence several times over. (Not a flame but a suggestion - You seem to have a lot of notions based on nothing but possible misinterpretations)

[Heaven]

So Ancients are highly evolved because they could create advanced technology and, half way to ascension, could do things like telekenesis? If it's got nothing to do with being good or bad, why do so many people think that the Ancients were wise, good, benevolent, had high morals etc. just because they could build Stargates and better space ships?

because that's the impression we got from the ancients we met throughout the show, and the people who knew them.

Would you want to be treated with consideration, though, even if you didn't have the Ancients' intellect and technological knowledge?

doesn't matter what I want, the ancients don't tell me what to do or think, no reason I should tell them.
as long as they live and let live, who cares what they think.
you can only ask someone to be your friend, you can't force them.

If evolution has nothing to do with being good or bad, why does it have anything with understanding?

evolution doesn't, experience does.
being around for millions of years and gathering so much knowledge teaches you a few things.

[Betelgeuze]

I don't think the Ancients are egocentrical and manipulative. They made mistakes just like everyone else.

The non-interference rule of the Ascended Ancients is a good one imo. Sure the Ascended could create perfect conditions for us, but the price of such a paradise would be our progress. If humans are never challenged, they will never live up to their potential.

[Morrolan]

Until you have understanding of all in the universe, is it not futile to criticize someone who does?

[ciannwn]

For the last 4-10 or so years (I don't remember how many years it were), the Ancients had been confined inside their own city, under siege from the Wraith. They were forced to fight from within their own city, constantly having the shield up and fighting for their very survival.

"The Game" civilizations were abandoned for obvious reasons (the evacuation of the city).

Seeing as the Ancients were losing the war, why wasn't releasing the civilisations involved in 'The Game' part of their evacuation plans? Couldn't they have sent one last message on the lines of "You're on your own now. Don't hang around waiting for further instructions". The fact that they didn't do this suggests that they had no consideration for the humans on these planets. After all, they had 4-10 years in which to think of leaving - it's not like they woke up one morning, discovered they were under attack by a superior force and only had a couple of hours to pack up and go.

If it's got nothing to do with being good or bad, why do so many people think that the Ancients were wise, good, benevolent, had high morals etc. just because they could build Stargates and better space ships?

because that's the impression we got from the ancients we met throughout the show, and the people who knew them.

One thing we've learned from the show is that Ancients, ascended or otherwise, are individuals. The Stargate characters liked and respected a few of them while regarding others as arrogant etc. The Ori are also ascended Ancients even though they call themselves by a different name. Are they good, benevolent and highly moral just because they have all these super powers?

being around for millions of years and gathering so much knowledge teaches you a few things.

What did the Ancients actually learn? If they were so superior to ordinary humans, how is it that they were nearly wiped out by the Wraith when a handful of people from Earth have been eliminating hives and reducing Wraith numbers with relative ease? If Beckett, an ordinary human, could come up with a retrovirus which would turn Wraith human, why could the Ancients only manage -

Spoiler:

1: An exploding tumour machine which obviously created tumours in the technicians using it.

2: The useless Acturus Project which killed the scientists involved in the project.

3: The nanites which evolved into the Asurans.

Until you have understanding of all in the universe, is it not futile to criticize someone who does?

In 'The Abyss' Daniel says - "ascension doesn't make you all-knowing".

Seeing as ascended Ancients aren't all knowing, why can't people criticize them? Are we so dazzled by the ascension word and the idea of super powers that we automatically assume that anyone who can turn his/her body into energy is all wise etc.? As I said earlier, the Ori are ascended Ancients with the opposite philosophy to non-interference so going up to a higher plane of existence doesn't automatically make someone good, wise or benevolent. Why are any of the ascended Others automatically regarded as wise and good? What if their horror of doing anything even if it means the extinction of all life in the universe isn't wisdom either?

The non-interference rule of the Ascended Ancients is a good one imo.

Maybe it is until the Ascended beings really have discovered wisdom.

If humans are never challenged, they will never live up to their potential.

The ones killed by Ori Priors (Milky Way galaxy) didn't have much chance to live up to their potential. The ascended Ancients allowed the Ori to bend rules with Adria. Why did they allow this? Could it be that they didn't regard the Ori as a threat to themselves so let their rivals get on with it? If the Ori had become so powerful through all the extra worshippers that they could have destroyed the Ancients, would the Ancients have fought back? After all, fighting back would be thwarting the Ori's free will which was to eliminate the ascended Ancients.

[PG15]

Spoiler:

The Ancients ran a social experiment where they gave instructions to various civilisations. From the Game -

Zelenka: I discovered countries on planets throughout the galaxy. Some have been idle for the past ten thousand years -- I guess awaiting instructions from the Ancients -- but some have managed to develop on their own, even flourish. (He sighs sadly.) Some have been destroyed by war, and others have been completely wiped out.

The social experiment was conducted on the lines of a strategy game. When the Ancients evacuated the city and left for Earth, nobody thought to tell these civilisations not to wait for instructions any more. Surely it could have been part of the evacuation preparations seeing as the lab was in Atlantis. This, for me, is another instance of how the Ancients didn't have any real consideration for the humans they created.

True, but I was talking about the Ascendeds.

EDIT:

What did the Ancients actually learn? If they were so superior to ordinary humans, how is it that they were nearly wiped out by the Wraith when a handful of people from Earth have been eliminating hives and reducing Wraith numbers with relative ease? If Beckett, an ordinary human, could come up with a retrovirus which would turn Wraith human, why could the Ancients only manage -

Spoiler:

1: An exploding tumour machine which obviously created tumours in the technicians using it.

2: The useless Acturus Project which killed the scientists involved in the project.

3: The nanites which evolved into the Asurans.

It's the Asgard symdrome; they evolved so far as to forget the simpler solutions to problems and instead complicate things with new-fangled technology, like the stuff you listed.

The reason we have been so successful is that we're so low-key. We don't actually present THAT much of a threat to the Wraith as we're slowly taking them down, instead of quickly, unlike the Lanteans who, with their powerful ships, could easily destroy every Hive out there if it wasn't for their numbers. Besides, most of them think that Atlantis is gone, and it's only been the survivors of the expedition (who could be any where) that's been opposing them. If they knew Atlantis was still there, they'd send another wave of ships and we'd be screwed.

Also, it's unlikely that only 60 hives existed at the time of the first Siege of Atlantis; it's more likely that there were many many more, but which died out due to hunger or infighting soon after the Ancients left.

[ciannwn]

True, but I was talking about the Ascendeds.

The Ancients who ascended are exactly the same people as they were when they had corporeal form. If they were capable of running sociology experiments on humans in the Pegasus galaxy how can we be certain that their non-interference policy isn't just another kind of experiment to see how mortals cope with all the messes that were left behind?

The Ancients have rules but there is some flexibility to allow for rule bending when it suits them. Why do they allow this? Why did they allow the Ori to bend the rules by creating Adria? She had the knowledge of the Ori and anyone converted to the Origin religion must have been adding extra 'worshipping power' otherwise there would be no point in sending an invasion fleet to the Milky Way.

The question which nobody seems to have an answer for is why keep the Ori themselves out of the Milky Way Higher Planes territory yet allow them to operate on the mortal plane through Adria? Were the ascended Ancients confident that the Ori could never gain enough extra power to destroy them? Were they allowing rule bending so the Ori could have free will where converting the Milky Way was concerned because they thought it would only affect mortals but not themselves?

[s09119]

The Ancients who ascended are exactly the same people as they were when they had corporeal form. If they were capable of running sociology experiments on humans in the Pegasus galaxy how can we be certain that their non-interference policy isn't just another kind of experiment to see how mortals cope with all the messes that were left behind?

The Ancients have rules but there is some flexibility to allow for rule bending when it suits them. Why do they allow this? Why did they allow the Ori to bend the rules by creating Adria? She had the knowledge of the Ori and anyone converted to the Origin religion must have been adding extra 'worshipping power' otherwise there would be no point in sending an invasion fleet to the Milky Way.

The question which nobody seems to have an answer for is why keep the Ori themselves out of the Milky Way Higher Planes territory yet allow them to operate on the mortal plane through Adria? Were the ascended Ancients confident that the Ori could never gain enough extra power to destroy them? Were they allowing rule bending so the Ori could have free will where converting the Milky Way was concerned because they thought it would only affect mortals but not themselves?

The Ascended stopped the ascended Ori from entering our galaxy. But Adria is, essentially, nothing more than a very advanced human with the same ideals of the Ori.

But since the Ancients won't interfere with the existence of humans, they won't stop Adria (a human).

EDIT (SPOILERS): Of course, now that she's ascended, they could probably just keep her in check, as she's no longer human.

[Ltcolshepjumper]

The Ancients who ascended are exactly the same people as they were when they had corporeal form. If they were capable of running sociology experiments on humans in the Pegasus galaxy how can we be certain that their non-interference policy isn't just another kind of experiment to see how mortals cope with all the messes that were left behind?

The Ancients have rules but there is some flexibility to allow for rule bending when it suits them. Why do they allow this? Why did they allow the Ori to bend the rules by creating Adria? She had the knowledge of the Ori and anyone converted to the Origin religion must have been adding extra 'worshipping power' otherwise there would be no point in sending an invasion fleet to the Milky Way.

The question which nobody seems to have an answer for is why keep the Ori themselves out of the Milky Way Higher Planes territory yet allow them to operate on the mortal plane through Adria? Were the ascended Ancients confident that the Ori could never gain enough extra power to destroy them? Were they allowing rule bending so the Ori could have free will where converting the Milky Way was concerned because they thought it would only affect mortals but not themselves?

Merlin was the same way, yet they did not stop him( except for destroying his first Sangraal). Besides, Adria is really just an advanced human who has the knowledge of the Ori. Also, the corporeal ancients were just like us humans, just with better tech and a better comprehension of the universe. Their sociological "experiments" were to help kickstart the development of primitive races. The Asurans began as nanites that became humanlike over time, yet their aggression remained. The nanites in Atlantis were less developed than the actual nanites which make up the Asurans, evident by the fact that the Ancients had only one small lab in Atlantis and a large city like Asuras. The Ancients KNEW the Asurans had the potential to be just as powerful as them and, given their aggressive nature, could have been a threat to the other human races in the galaxy. As for them leaving, most of the human worlds were already dominated by the Wraith anyway, and the Ancients weren't able to defend those worlds which had not been touched by them. Their best hope was to retreat back to Earth until such timke as they could return. However, as Morgan LeFay stated, once they returned, the realized they could never rebuild their society. As for the Ascended Ancients' rule of non-interference, the Ancients know very well their weaknesses and the temptations of being powerful. In order to keep those wayward Ascended beings from doing anything of severe consequence, they decided to ban all intereference to ensure that NO ancient crosses the line and does something wrong.

[PG15]

The Ancients who ascended are exactly the same people as they were when they had corporeal form.

Not really. Would you say the stoneage homo sapiens are exactly the same as modern day humans? Well, ok, there might be some similarities, but suddenly having a much much wider view of the Universe from another plane of existence tends to change you some what.

If they were capable of running sociology experiments on humans in the Pegasus galaxy how can we be certain that their non-interference policy isn't just another kind of experiment to see how mortals cope with all the messes that were left behind?

We can't. But then, that sounds awfully like a paranoid conspiracy theory since anything they do could be seen as an sociology experiment. Literally anything.

The Ancients have rules but there is some flexibility to allow for rule bending when it suits them. Why do they allow this? Why did they allow the Ori to bend the rules by creating Adria? She had the knowledge of the Ori and anyone converted to the Origin religion must have been adding extra 'worshipping power' otherwise there would be no point in sending an invasion fleet to the Milky Way.

Again, free will. Adria, along with all beings in the MW are corporeal, and thus, according to their rules, cannot be tampered with. Rules are rules.

I think you're mixing Adria with the Ori. Yes, she is as close to one as possible, but as you saw with her relationship with Vala, she isn't completely one-minded. She had other issues to deal with, and that makes her human, which makes her capable of deciding her fate for herself.

The question which nobody seems to have an answer for is why keep the Ori themselves out of the Milky Way Higher Planes territory yet allow them to operate on the mortal plane through Adria? Were the ascended Ancients confident that the Ori could never gain enough extra power to destroy them? Were they allowing rule bending so the Ori could have free will where converting the Milky Way was concerned because they thought it would only affect mortals but not themselves?

You're looking too deep into it. It's a simple matter of pacifism (not wanting to fight the Ori) mixed with rigid rules. That's it. It wouldn't surprise me to know that the Ancients are panicking at the whole incursion, but realizing that rules are rules.

[Heaven]

What did the Ancients actually learn? If they were so superior to ordinary humans, how is it that they were nearly wiped out by the Wraith when a handful of people from Earth have been eliminating hives and reducing Wraith numbers with relative ease? If Beckett, an ordinary human, could come up with a retrovirus which would turn Wraith human, why could the Ancients only manage

what did they learn? well apparently a lot since the asgard didn't even manage to scratch the surface of their library of knowledge
and we couldn't even fit their database on our hard drives.
furthermore, imagine having millions of years of history to learn from.
their accomplishments speak for themselves, even when they are no longer around.
about the wraith, we have no evidence that we eliminated even a fraction of what the ancients did in their time, and even that is mostly thanks to their technology.
about the retrovirus, let's put it this way, can you imagine a technology the ancients can not build?

[garhkal]

on the contrary, by promoting free will they are allowing civilizations to make their own choices and be responsible for themselves without relying on the ancients.
it's like parents raising their children, you teach them the basics, and then send them off into the world. you can't protect them forever.

I see things the same way... Starting off with maternal Instinct, we saw daniel struggle with desiring to save the boy, but seeing he was better off with Oma.. That led to his free willed decision to leave him with her, which turned out for the better. Who knows what would have happened if he took the boy.

As to the using our own means to save us, it is like Carter said in Learning Curve. it is much more satisfying to figure it out for ourselves than get told the answer... Same goes for saving ourselves... not only will we learn something, but we will have bettered ourselves. Leaving it to the ancients to always save us will get us no where.

but they did fight the wraith, it's only once they lost the war that they retreated to Earth.

]

Very true. IIRC The holo said in rising, that they were fighting all over, but were loosing due to greater numbers... and it was only after they saw no way to win did they retreat through the gate to earth.

we also don't know the circumstances surrounding the decision to destroy them, only what the replicators told us.

Very true... perhaps the Asurans tried to strike out at their creators rather than the wraith, but the protocols prevented them, and it was decided to terminate the experiement before they managed to figure out a way to counter it.

The Ascended beings defended their territory from the actual Ori but did nothing at all to prevent Adria, Priors and an entire invasion fleet going to the Milky Way galaxy. As the invasion only affected mortals it suggests that the Ascended beings didn't care as long as they weren't affected personally.

While i will give you that they COULD have done more to stop the priors and adria, imo that would have been stepping over their own laws to do so... Remember while they maybe more than normal, they are still mortal/flesh and blood.

And it looks more like they were seeing the best ways to develop the human civilizations they had created via the use of the "game", not just toying with them.

Same here. While yes i do think it was kind of stupid that the ancients were using the game system itself, i do not fault their logic behind it... Though i would have liked to know what they did with other 'game worlds' where what they were doing did not pan out... Did they just leave them there??

We also know that the Ancients protected the human worlds. In "Trinity" we saw a weapon built on a human world to protect them from the Wraith. Granted, it backfired in the end, but they DID try. The Lanteans fought as long as they could, but eventually, the Wraith just overwhelmed them and they were forced to give up the human defense.

Do we know it was not an atlantean facility there?? I believe it was theirs, not just a station designed to protect the humans who were there... Kind of like the ship in Inferno..

did the Asgard not do the same thing?

Ohh, great point... The Asguard both on Cimerria and that other planet from red sun, were acting as their gods.. So would you say they are like the ancients in doing that??

If they'd acquired all the knowledge of the universe they should have known which of their inventions were disastrous and removed them before somebody got hurt.

but as explained by Daniel in several eps of SG1, being assended does no make them all knowing... just more able to understand that knowledge... they still have to seek it out.''

Exactly how did they try to make the universe a better place for all sentient beings? Wasn't it arrogant of them to play God and reseed galaxies instead of letting life re-evolve naturally?

How would life have re-evolved?? Do we even know if it was possible after it was errased with the Dakara device?

Surely we'd have no right to object to the Wraith treating us as something to eat, hunt or keep as a servant/pet.

And technically you would be correct, we would have no right. BUt since the show is humanocentric, it shows everything else in relation to us, therefore we do object.

IIRC it was in S3 (where Skara / Klorel was on Triad) where it was brought up that we regard animals as less than us so therefore are killable for our own pleasure, and it is only cause we think ourselves as better/greater than them that we make said decision (one of the few points i actually agreed with the Gou;ald Zaknpata)..

evolution doesn't, experience does.
being around for millions of years and gathering so much knowledge teaches you a few things.

Great point heaven.. We humans think we are (pardon the phrase) the Bomb diggity cause we have learnt X amt of knowledge... But compared to the ancients we are still children.. Heck the NOX could also be labled as bad or worse than the ancients cause they won't even fight to defend themselves... at least the ancients did that..

Seeing as the Ancients were losing the war, why wasn't releasing the civilisations involved in 'The Game' part of their evacuation plans? Couldn't they have sent one last message on the lines of "You're on your own now. Don't hang around waiting for further instructions". The fact that they didn't do this suggests that they had no consideration for the humans on these planets.

I will actually give you that one, but perhaps it was cause they had already shut down their console controlling the satellites to save power for the shields..

The reason we have been so successful is that we're so low-key. We don't actually present THAT much of a threat to the Wraith as we're slowly taking them down, instead of quickly

Similar to how we started off being a nusance to the Gou'ald and over time became an actuall threat.

[ciannwn]

The Ascended stopped the ascended Ori from entering our galaxy. But Adria is, essentially, nothing more than a very advanced human with the same ideals of the Ori.

But since the Ancients won't interfere with the existence of humans, they won't stop Adria (a human).

EDIT (SPOILERS): Of course, now that she's ascended, they could probably just keep her in check, as she's no longer human.

She was actually created by the Ori for the purpose of going into the Milky Way galaxy. By allowing this 'very advanced human' in the Ancients were allowing the Ori to operate in the Milky Way galaxy. If they really cared about the mortals they would have done a little rule bending of their own to counteract the Ori's rule bending. After all, it's not like they don't allow any rule bending at all. Daniel keeps going on about the fine line in Full Circle but the Others don't stop him from telling O'Neill about the situation on Abydos and giving him all the necessary information to go on a mission. Daniel only crosses that line when he gets directly involved in the action.

The partially descended Anubis was allowed to operate in the Milky Way galaxy with all his extra knowledge of ancient technology etc. The Ancients bent their rules here by allowing Anubis to keep and use information he'd learned from his ascension and it was done in order to punish Oma because of her mistake. Why should mortals have been made to suffer just so that the Ancients could punish one of their own? How is that good or benevolent? Why couldn't Oma have been punished by being sent back to the mortal plane while the Ancients took responsibility for what one of their number had done?

If people posting in this topic learned that friends and family had died in order to punish some being who had turned his/her body into energy and ascended, would we think it fair and just? Would we think that the other ascended beings who had used our loved ones as 'punishment pawns' were good and wise?

What if the story of Oma's punishment was supposed to make viewers stop and think where ascended Ancients/Others are concerned? The whole moral of Stargate is people mistaking technologically advanced races for gods and worshipping them. Why shouldn't we question beings who learned how to turn their bodies into energy and who acquired what we think of as 'godlike' powers in the process? The Ori impose a supposedly 'spiritual' path on their worshippers and they live on the Higher Planes. Why should the ascended Ancients/Others be more evolved just because they too, use terms such as Higher Planes and ascension and only allowed Anubis to use his 'extra knowledge' to hurt mortals in order to punish Oma?

I'm using Ancients/Others because it's not entirely clear who all the ascended beings are by the time of the Stargate stories. Maybe the Ancients were the very first race in the universe to discover ascension so they were the ones who set the rules. On the other hand, maybe another race from a galaxy far far away got there first.

but as explained by Daniel in several eps of SG1, being assended does no make them all knowing... just more able to understand that knowledge... they still have to seek it out.''

My mistake there. It's a very silly mistake, too, because I've actually included one of Daniel's quotes on the matter. Where Ancient technology was concerned, though, the ascended Ancients should have realised which bits were useless and lethal.

How would life have re-evolved?? Do we even know if it was possible after it was errased with the Dakara device?

Wasn't the Dakara device originally made in order to create new life after the Milky Way galaxy had been devastated by a plague? If life had evolved once it could have done it again without technologically advanced mortals (as the Ancients were at the time) playing gods. Why did they leave it lying around once they'd finished with it? Surely they must have realised it could be used as a weapon which could destroy life. Were they so convinced they would be around forever that no other life forms evolved from their own reseeding would ever come across it and misuse it?

Nobody's saying that ascended Ancients aren't evolved as far as super powers go. Are we really supposed to think of them as being all wise and good, though, just because they turned their bodies into energy and can now store more information?

[s09119]

She was actually created by the Ori for the purpose of going into the Milky Way galaxy. By allowing this 'very advanced human' in the Ancients were allowing the Ori to operate in the Milky Way galaxy. If they really cared about the mortals they would have done a little rule bending of their own to counteract the Ori's rule bending. After all, it's not like they don't allow any rule bending at all. Daniel keeps going on about the fine line in Full Circle but the Others don't stop him from telling O'Neill about the situation on Abydos and giving him all the necessary information to go on a mission. Daniel only crosses that line when he gets directly involved in the action.

The partially descended Anubis was allowed to operate in the Milky Way galaxy with all his extra knowledge of ancient technology etc. The Ancients bent their rules here by allowing Anubis to keep and use information he'd learned from his ascension and it was done in order to punish Oma because of her mistake. Why should mortals have been made to suffer just so that the Ancients could punish one of their own? How is that good or benevolent? Why couldn't Oma have been punished by being sent back to the mortal plane while the Ancients took responsibility for what one of their number had done?

If people posting in this topic learned that friends and family had died in order to punish some being who had turned his/her body into energy and ascended, would we think it fair and just? Would we think that the other ascended beings who had used our loved ones as 'punishment pawns' were good and wise?

What if the story of Oma's punishment was supposed to make viewers stop and think where ascended Ancients/Others are concerned? The whole moral of Stargate is people mistaking technologically advanced races for gods and worshipping them. Why shouldn't we question beings who learned how to turn their bodies into energy and who acquired what we think of as 'godlike' powers in the process? The Ori impose a supposedly 'spiritual' path on their worshippers and they live on the Higher Planes. Why should the ascended Ancients/Others be more evolved just because they too, use terms such as Higher Planes and ascension and only allowed Anubis to use his 'extra knowledge' to hurt mortals in order to punish Oma?

I'm using Ancients/Others because it's not entirely clear who all the ascended beings are by the time of the Stargate stories. Maybe the Ancients were the very first race in the universe to discover ascension so they were the ones who set the rules. On the other hand, maybe another race from a galaxy far far away got there first.



My mistake there. It's a very silly mistake, too, because I've actually included one of Daniel's quotes on the matter. Where Ancient technology was concerned, though, the ascended Ancients should have realised which bits were useless and lethal.



Wasn't the Dakara device originally made in order to create new life after the Milky Way galaxy had been devastated by a plague? If life had evolved once it could have done it again without technologically advanced mortals (as the Ancients were at the time) playing gods. Why did they leave it lying around once they'd finished with it? Surely they must have realised it could be used as a weapon which could destroy life. Were they so convinced they would be around forever that no other life forms evolved from their own reseeding would ever come across it and misuse it?

Nobody's saying that ascended Ancients aren't evolved as far as super powers go. Are we really supposed to think of them as being all wise and good, though, just because they turned their bodies into energy and can now store more information?

The Dakara device was made because how could life EVOLVE if every living thing was dead? It would need to begin somewhere, wouldn't it? If everything in the galaxy: bacteria, planets, animals, etc, was all killed, what would be left to evolve? Air?

As for them not being good: they did what they thought was best. And after all: good and evil are merely points of view

[ciannwn]

The Dakara device was made because how could life EVOLVE if every living thing was dead? It would need to begin somewhere, wouldn't it? If everything in the galaxy: bacteria, planets, animals, etc, was all killed, what would be left to evolve? Air?

How did life appear in the first place? When the galaxies first formed there was no life at all in them but chemical processes started it off somehow and somewhere. Nature had to manage all by itself because there were no technologically advanced races around to build a Dakara device.

As for them not being good: they did what they thought was best. And after all: good and evil are merely points of view

The Ancients doing what they thought was best is, in my opinion, a better way of looking at them. Advanced technology and high intelligence didn't stop them from making some big mistakes when they were corporeal. Turning their bodies into energy and gaining super powers didn't make them all knowing and all wise so what they thought was best mightn't always have been what really was best. They don't agree amongst themselves about interaction with the physical plane - views range from no interference at any cost to bending a few rules to help out on occasion. The Ori became fanatical control freaks and Daniel was still Daniel. Adria didn't need years of meditation etc. in order to ascend either - she just did it when she was going to die.

The Ancients couldn't even agree amongst themselves about the Ori. Merlin broke their rules by devising his super weapon and he was later supported by Morgan le Fey who did some rule bending of her own to help the SG1 team. Yes, Merlin's super weapon could be used against the Ancients as well so it wasn't really a good idea to make one and leave it lying around for any beings to find. If the Ancients hadn't had a horror of thinking up some way of defending themselves, though, Merlin wouldn't have needed to descend in order to conduct research. Rabid pacifism or whatever it was that drove the Ancients is all very well but if their side was capable of thinking up a super weapon so was the other side who had exactly the same access to power and knowledge. If the Ori had managed to destroy the Ancients/Others by some super weapon of their own they'd have taken over the universe - all the 'you stay in your galaxy and not operate anywhere else' would have been futile in the end so they might as well have let their rivals operate wherever they wanted to in the first place.

There is one thing that puzzles me about the unascended Ancients. They were able to build something like the Dakara device which could create life and also be configured to destroy specific targets. Sam Carter, Selmac/Jacob and Ba'al were able to use it to get rid of Replicators so why is it that Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy were unable to come up with something which would get rid of Wraith? With everything they had in the Atlantis data bases plus the Repositories of Knowledge, you'd think they'd be able to invent a mini-Darkara device which would only affect Wraith DNA or the organic parts of hive ships. One can only assume that the Ancients on Atlantis were either less intelligent than the ones who built the Dakara device or they didn't want to eliminate all the Wraith even though leaving a few of them around meant that humans would be ending up as dinner. If Beckett could come up with a retrovirus that turned Wraith human, though, why couldn't the Ancients with all their extra knowledge and intelligence devise a gene therapy which would enable Wraith to live on ordinary food while retaining their appearance, memories and hive system? What was it about the Wraith which turned a race with almost godlike technology into a bunch of incompetents?