The Ancients Discussion Thread (Spoiler for all seasons of both shows).

[Gateship 1]

Okay, so have been thinking about the timeline of events from Alteran/Ori separation up to the start of SG-1 S9, if you think anything is wrong or if i missed something let me know, otherwise just tell me what you think.

Alterans/Ori evolved in far off galaxy together, developed at least some advanced technology (including stargates). Ori go more religious, Alterans more scientific. Eventually (dont know after how much time), the Alterans decide they will never be able to coexist and leave; heading to the Milky Way. Where they terraform planets, place stargates and generally have a good time.

After a long time (presumable a long time as they obviously had time to place millions of stargates throughout the galaxy), the Ori decide to come after them with a plague/plagues. They devastate the MW, killing most of the Ancients. Some however manage to ascend, some survive and construct Dakara device to reseed the galaxy and allow life to start again (which would eventually lead to humans evolving in MW). Some leave MW on Atlantis which had obviously managed to remain disease-free.

Atlantis arrives in Pegasus and begins anew, seeding planets with human-life and placing stargates throughout the galaxy. During this time; Wraith evolve and wage war against Lanteans eventually forcing the remaining Ancients to flee back to MW and sink Atlantis.

These surviving ancients a)lived amongst humans and past on their genes leading to some humans possessing the genes needed to operate their tech, b) spread out (both on Earth and throughout the MW), some spreading life/civilisation on other worlds, some continuing their research from when they were on Atlantis (time travel and replicators to be specific), some eventually met the Azgard, Nox and Furlings and the Great Alliance was founded to oppose the rising power of the Goauld (I am thinking it was here when the alliance was formed cos of the timeline about Azgard development mentioned at the end of series 5), c) went and meditated and eventually also achieved ascension.

Many years pass...Merlin descends to construct anti-Ori weapon but is stopped by Ascended Ancients who dont want him interfering.

Meanwhile, the Ori are convinced their plague wiped out all life in MW, unaware it was re-seeded with life and so do not suspect life has remained in MW all this time because the ascended ancients prevent them from finding out. This was until Jackson & Vala accidently tip them off leading to Ori invasion of MW.

Dont think i've missed anything, any thoughts?

[Gregorius]

Since a lot of threads seem to be going off-topic these days the moment the Ancients are involved, I created this thread.

This thread is a discussion thread about the Ancients, be it the corporeal version or be it the ascended version. All opinions all allowed in here, be they positive or be they negative, as long as they are civil and ensure that a proper debate and/or discussion is being conducted. To ensure this there are a few thread rules which I hope the mods will enforce strictly.

The Rules:

• All arguments should have their basis in canon. The same goes for counter arguments. This however does not mean that all interpretations of said arguments are to be the same.
• All posts are to be coherent and proper grammar, syntaxing, interpunction and a decent lay-out are highly appreciated.
• All posts are to contain reasoning behind a thought/argument. This means that posts that fall in the category of "Just because" are forbidden, the same goes for agreement/disagreement posts.
• No flaming/bashing other members when they disagree with you. If they're being idiots, and don't listen to reasoning and reply with the same faulty arguments time and time again, ignore them. Don't fuel them.
• All smiley-only and/or posts that fall in the "You roxxor!" and "I agree!!!!111!!" categories are forbidden. Mods can remove them at will.

These rules can be changed and rules can be added/removed when needed.

Now I'll start off with my vision of the Ancients.

I consider the Ancients to be an arrogant, egocentrical and manipulative race. They experiment with entire galaxies and make it dependend on them but when needed the most they are nowhere to be found.

We've seen it in the Pegasus Galaxy where they simply left the human civilizations they created when the Wraith attacked. Instead of fighting the Wraith after negotiations failed they simply retreated every Ancient to Atlantis and waited there until they could get escape to Earth, leaving the human civilizations they were responsible for to serve as food for the Wraith.

Not to mention their lovely attitude to anything not Ancient. Take the Asurans for example: They were designed to harm all living creatures save for the Ancients, which means they were willing to kill all humans who depended on them just to beat the Wraith. But when the Asurans turned out not to be the weapon they wanted it to be, they decided to destroy a sentient species just because it failed to live up to their expectations.

And it's the same with the Ascended, they do nothing unless their own lives are at stake and even then it's only due to the actions of rogue elements within their midst. The Ori taking over the galaxy? Not a problem for the Ascended, at least not yet, since the Ori can't covert them so they allow the Ori to convert every living being in the entire galaxy until they become too big a threat.

Also the Ascended have the same twisted sense of morality as the corporeal Ancients.
Defending your corporeal friends? You are banished and forced to protect them and only them for all time, or you get kicked out of the Ascended planes.
Helping a defenseless species by giving them technology? You are banished and the species is wiped from existance.
Being tricked and help ascending an evil being? You are forced to watch the actions of this being for all time, it's either that or fighting him for all eternity.

Life sure must be fun when you're either a corporeal Ancient or an ascended one: You can pick a civilization and toy with it, and the moment they start doing things you dislike you can wipe them out. And on top of that, you get to think up nice punishments for your peers without any regards for the concequences the punishment has for the "lower" beings.

Imo, they are the prototype of what you don't want to become as a civilization.

[Gregorius]

This one is more dedicated towards their morality and attitude.

[PG15]

Imo, they are the prototype of what you don't want to become as a civilization.

Except we're already like that, but on a much smaller scale.

As for the rest...

We've seen it in the Pegasus Galaxy where they simply left the human civilizations they created when the Wraith attacked. Instead of fighting the Wraith after negotiations failed they simply retreated every Ancient to Atlantis and waited there until they could get escape to Earth, leaving the human civilizations they were responsible for to serve as food for the Wraith.

Where did you get the idea that the Lanteans simply gave up? It sounded to me from the show that they fought as hard as they could but just couldn't win against the Wraith's massive numbers, until they were pushed all the way back to Atlantis.

Not to mention their lovely attitude to anything not Ancient. Take the Asurans for example: They were designed to harm all living creatures save for the Ancients, which means they were willing to kill all humans who depended on them just to beat the Wraith. But when the Asurans turned out not to be the weapon they wanted it to be, they decided to destroy a sentient species just because it failed to live up to their expectations.

Whoa there...that's a bit of a jump. The Asurans were programmed to be aggressive, yes, but I doubt the Lanteans ever concieved of killing the humans. After all, it's not like they need the nanites to do that; they created the humans, they could destroy them, but they never did for obvious reasons.

For instance, the basic Nanites that the Lanteans created were more focused on the Wraith than humans, as evidenced by how they swarmed the Wraith clump once it was injected into Weir in "The Real World".

And I'm still holding out hope for a good reason why the Asurans were destroyed. The whole "evolving too fast" and "overaggression" make it sounds like they were getting dangerous in the eye of the Ancients (like the MW replicators, actually) or they proposed some other method of exterminating the Wraith. This is all gut feeling though, so feel free to ignore.

In fact, I hope you do, because I have no other evidence to back it up.

And it's the same with the Ascended, they do nothing unless their own lives are at stake and even then it's only due to the actions of rogue elements within their midst. The Ori taking over the galaxy? Not a problem for the Ascended, at least not yet, since the Ori can't covert them so they allow the Ori to convert every living being in the entire galaxy until they become too big a threat.

It's the Non-Interference Law though; if you apply to it (and in principle, it's a good law), then you'll have to apply to it whole-hog, otherwise where would you draw the line between "when we can interfere" and "when we cannot interfere"?

And the Ancients ARE being threatened; they know why the Ori are convering these people, they know the Ori are coming as soon as the MW is taken. But again, they want to give us free will instead of saving their own ass. Kinda noble, in a slightly twisted way.

Also the Ascended have the same twisted sense of morality as the corporeal Ancients.
Defending your corporeal friends? You are banished and forced to protect them and only them for all time, or you get kicked out of the Ascended planes.
Helping a defenseless species by giving them technology? You are banished and the species is wiped from existance.
Being tricked and help ascending an evil being? You are forced to watch the actions of this being for all time, it's either that or fighting him for all eternity.

Well I like said, they all violated the supreme law of the Ancients, namely the Non-Interference Law. Don't forget the results of Orlin's actions; yes, that species was saved from the Goa'uld, but didn't they turn their weapons on themselves/other worlds at the end anyway? It was the perfect example of why that law had to be followed.

Life sure must be fun when you're either a corporeal Ancient or an ascended one: You can pick a civilization and toy with it, and the moment they start doing things you dislike you can wipe them out. And on top of that, you get to think up nice punishments for your peers without any regards for the concequences the punishment has for the "lower" beings.

Do we have any regards for bacteria? Seriously, that's probably what we're like to them. And as for toying with a civilization, well...they don't. The "normal" Ascendeds don't do that, and if it wasn't for some rogue ones that only makes life hard for themselves, they never will.

[any_gopher]

I understand the ascended Ancients' non-interference policy. I understand why the human characters are bitter about it. I've never quite understood why there is fan animosity toward them though. I mean, we can't understand what it's like to be ascended. We can't think like they can and we can't see things at the scope that they can, so we can even begin to question their moral fortitude, because we really are that much lower than them. We're bacteria to them, but that's not a bad thing. I mean, other things are bacteria to us, and we can't be held responsible for them. Some day, our bacteria will evolve into more complex forms and have problems of their own with lower beings. Likewise, someday we'll ascend and join the ranks of those on the higher planes. Anyway, that's just how I see it.

[ciannwn]

And as for toying with a civilization, well...they don't. The "normal" Ascendeds don't do that, and if it wasn't for some rogue ones that only makes life hard for themselves, they never will.

Spoiler:

The Ancients ran a social experiment where they gave instructions to various civilisations. From the Game -

Zelenka: I discovered countries on planets throughout the galaxy. Some have been idle for the past ten thousand years -- I guess awaiting instructions from the Ancients -- but some have managed to develop on their own, even flourish. (He sighs sadly.) Some have been destroyed by war, and others have been completely wiped out.

The social experiment was conducted on the lines of a strategy game. When the Ancients evacuated the city and left for Earth, nobody thought to tell these civilisations not to wait for instructions any more. Surely it could have been part of the evacuation preparations seeing as the lab was in Atlantis. This, for me, is another instance of how the Ancients didn't have any real consideration for the humans they created.

[Heaven]

I consider the Ancients to be an arrogant, egocentrical and manipulative race. They experiment with entire galaxies and make it dependend on them but when needed the most they are nowhere to be found.

on the contrary, by promoting free will they are allowing civilizations to make their own choices and be responsible for themselves without relying on the ancients.
it's like parents raising their children, you teach them the basics, and then send them off into the world. you can't protect them forever.

We've seen it in the Pegasus Galaxy where they simply left the human civilizations they created when the Wraith attacked. Instead of fighting the Wraith after negotiations failed they simply retreated every Ancient to Atlantis and waited there until they could get escape to Earth, leaving the human civilizations they were responsible for to serve as food for the Wraith.

but they did fight the wraith, it's only once they lost the war that they retreated to Earth.

Not to mention their lovely attitude to anything not Ancient. Take the Asurans for example: They were designed to harm all living creatures save for the Ancients, which means they were willing to kill all humans who depended on them just to beat the Wraith. But when the Asurans turned out not to be the weapon they wanted it to be, they decided to destroy a sentient species just because it failed to live up to their expectations.

the Asurans never moved past the experimental phase, so it's reasonable to assume the ancients were the only ones they came in contact with.
I'm sure had they decided to deploy them that they would have made sure there are sufficient safeguards for humans as well.
we also don't know the circumstances surrounding the decision to destroy them, only what the replicators told us.

And it's the same with the Ascended, they do nothing unless their own lives are at stake and even then it's only due to the actions of rogue elements within their midst. The Ori taking over the galaxy? Not a problem for the Ascended, at least not yet, since the Ori can't covert them so they allow the Ori to convert every living being in the entire galaxy until they become too big a threat.

yet conveniently you forget that at the same time they are shielding us from the Ori, and have been for years.

Also the Ascended have the same twisted sense of morality as the corporeal Ancients.
Defending your corporeal friends? You are banished and forced to protect them and only them for all time, or you get kicked out of the Ascended planes.
Helping a defenseless species by giving them technology? You are banished and the species is wiped from existance.
Being tricked and help ascending an evil being? You are forced to watch the actions of this being for all time, it's either that or fighting him for all eternity.

you are talking about breaking their highest law, how do you expect them to respond?

Life sure must be fun when you're either a corporeal Ancient or an ascended one: You can pick a civilization and toy with it, and the moment they start doing things you dislike you can wipe them out. And on top of that, you get to think up nice punishments for your peers without any regards for the concequences the punishment has for the "lower" beings.

in all cases the transgressions involved lower beings, so it's not surprising that they would be affected by the consequences.

[ciannwn]

yet conveniently you forget that at the same time they are shielding us from the Ori, and have been for years.

The Ascended beings defended their territory from the actual Ori but did nothing at all to prevent Adria, Priors and an entire invasion fleet going to the Milky Way galaxy. As the invasion only affected mortals it suggests that the Ascended beings didn't care as long as they weren't affected personally.

"Join us or die" isn't much of a choice for mortals seeing as there's nothing in the Stargate universe to say anything survives ordinary death. If everyone had resisted and been killed for their 'free will' would the Ascended beings have bothered about it? After all, they're swanning around on their Higher Planes so it probably wouldn't matter to them if all life in the universe became extinct.

I'm saying Ascended beings here because it's not entirely clear whether everyone on the Higher Planes is an Ancient or a human. If there are members of other races up there the term will include all Ancients.

[Heaven]

still, not caring doesn't indicate malice.
we don't concern ourselves with apes in the wild where they may be suffering from disease starvation or predators.
but that doesn't make it our fault or responsibility

[ciannwn]

still, not caring doesn't indicate malice.
we don't concern ourselves with apes in the wild where they may be suffering from disease starvation or predators.
but that doesn't make it our fault or responsibility

Many humans are concerned with saving endangered species, including apes. There is also The Great Ape Project which is working to give apes basic rights. These organisations aren't run by New Age fluffy bunnies.

Most endangered species on this planet have reached near extinction due to humans so other humans are assuming responsibility for the mess our own species has made and is still making where the planet is concerned. The Ancients didn't even do that much.

The Ancients actually created life and put humans on planets where they weren't likely to evolve naturally. It's obvious they didn't check what was going on in the Pegasus galaxy otherwise they would have seen what was happening when Iratus bugs fed on humans. The result was a disaster, both for the Ancients and the humans who ended up as food.

The Social experiment run by the Ancients on Atlantis was just treating humans like lab rats. If they were going to give guidance they should have done it properly, not set up civilisations to wait for instructions from some kind of strategy game players.

Why are the Ancients regarded as being so superior and highly evolved just because they had advanced technology? What about wisdom, compassion and responsibility or does 'superior' just mean better gadgets?

[s09119]

Many humans are concerned with saving endangered species, including apes. There is also The Great Ape Project which is working to give apes basic rights. These organisations aren't run by New Age fluffy bunnies.

Most endangered species on this planet have reached near extinction due to humans so other humans are assuming responsibility for the mess our own species has made and is still making where the planet is concerned. The Ancients didn't even do that much.

The Ancients actually created life and put humans on planets where they weren't likely to evolve naturally. It's obvious they didn't check what was going on in the Pegasus galaxy otherwise they would have seen what was happening when Iratus bugs fed on humans. The result was a disaster, both for the Ancients and the humans who ended up as food.

The Social experiment run by the Ancients on Atlantis was just treating humans like lab rats. If they were going to give guidance they should have done it properly, not set up civilisations to wait for instructions from some kind of strategy game players.

Why are the Ancients regarded as being so superior and highly evolved just because they had advanced technology? What about wisdom, compassion and responsibility or does 'superior' just mean better gadgets?

It's my opinion that the social experiments were justified, in a way. I mean, the Ancients created humans in Pegasus, right? And compared to them, humans were lab rats.

Come on, let's be honest. Primitive humans ARE NOTHING MORE than lab rats to Ancients, who are so far above us it isn't even funny. I know that, as humans ourselves, we should be apalled, but from their point of view, it made sense. And it looks more like they were seeing the best ways to develop the human civilizations they had created via the use of the "game", not just toying with them.

We also know that the Ancients protected the human worlds. In "Trinity" we saw a weapon built on a human world to protect them from the Wraith. Granted, it backfired in the end, but they DID try. The Lanteans fought as long as they could, but eventually, the Wraith just overwhelmed them and they were forced to give up the human defense.

As for the Ascended in the Milky Way, they're heroes, if anything. For millenia, they've guarded our existence from the Ori, and not interferred with how we did things. They had the chance to play God, but what gave them the right? They knew that they were not Gods, and they'd learned that anything they did could drastically change the fate of the universe. They could have warped our galaxy to no end to suit their view of how it should be (and that's what some are saying they should do), but instead they gave us free will.

The Ancients are a race to be admired. For all their faults and failures, they tried to make the universe a better place for all sentient beings... Something we aspire to do today.

[Heaven]

Many humans are concerned with saving endangered species, including apes. There is also The Great Ape Project which is working to give apes basic rights. These organisations aren't run by New Age fluffy bunnies.

still, we are talking about a handful of people here.
do we not experiment on apes? keep them locked up in cages?
regard them as inferior? even "own" them?
would you give your life for an ape?

Most endangered species on this planet have reached near extinction due to humans so other humans are assuming responsibility for the mess our own species has made and is still making where the planet is concerned. The Ancients didn't even do that much.

exactly, we only take action when it concerns humans.
we wouldn't stand for humans hunting apes, but we have no problem with tigers eating them, or them attacking each other.

The Social experiment run by the Ancients on Atlantis was just treating humans like lab rats. If they were going to give guidance they should have done it properly, not set up civilisations to wait for instructions from some kind of strategy game players.

in their eyes it was proper, and frankly so in mine.
did the Asgard not do the same thing?

[ciannwn]

Primitive humans ARE NOTHING MORE than lab rats to Ancients, who are so far above us it isn't even funny.

What exactly does being above us mean? If it's just technology, ordinary humans like Carter and McKay are able to figure it out.

When it comes to other things, the Ancients still had a civil war over different philosophies. The Ori were Ancients who became control freaks by using a false religion and genocide. Surely a race which can produce individuals like that isn't highly evolved. All the evidence in the Stargate universe indicates that Ancients had all the faults and failings of ordinary humans but were just able to create bigger explosions.

As for the Ascended in the Milky Way, they're heroes, if anything. For millenia, they've guarded our existence from the Ori, and not interferred with how we did things.

The Ori bent the rules by creating Adria to lead an invasion into the Milky Way galaxy. The Ascended just let Adria and the fleet in even though the Ori were then gaining converts to worship them. How, exactly is this being heroic protectors? Did worshippers in the Milky Way galaxy empower the Ori back in their own galaxy? If so, the Ascended might have been saved by 'lower life form' humans because Ori gaining extra energy could have made them strong enough to eliminate their rivals.

The Ascended beings in the Milky Way galaxy didn't let the Ori in to their own Higher Planes territory. Surely this was just protecting themselves and their own interests. After all, if they were happy to see mortals slaughtered for not following the religion of Origen, why bother guarding them from the Ori in the first place? Conversely, if it wasn't all about protecting their own territory, why not share it with the Ori and allow them to operate wherever they wanted to?

They had the chance to play God, but what gave them the right?

The Ancients played at being Gods before they ascended and then they just left all their messes behind for the lower plane beings to deal with. If they'd acquired all the knowledge of the universe they should have known which of their inventions were disastrous and removed them before somebody got hurt. The Acturus Project was a failure, for example. Even thought the Ancients working on it were killed, other Ancients had ascended so why couldn't they have taken responsibility for what members of their own race had done?

The Ancients are a race to be admired. For all their faults and failures, they tried to make the universe a better place for all sentient beings... Something we aspire to do today.

Exactly how did they try to make the universe a better place for all sentient beings? Wasn't it arrogant of them to play God and reseed galaxies instead of letting life re-evolve naturally?

do we not experiment on apes? keep them locked up in cages?
regard them as inferior? even "own" them?

If Ancients existed and decided that you were inferior so could be locked up in a cage and experimented on would you be happy with the idea? A Wraith is physically superior to humans and many of them have superior mind powers as well. Would you be happy with being a Wraith lunch because you were regarded as being inferior?

in their eyes it was proper, and frankly so in mine.
did the Asgard not do the same thing?

Why was it proper to conduct experiments on the Pegasus galaxy humans even thought they were sentient? Were the Asgard right to do this just because they had advanced technology?

The question still remains - what exactly is superior? Is it just bigger guns, space ships and technology that often creates disasters?

[Heaven]

When it comes to other things, the Ancients still had a civil war over different philosophies. The Ori were Ancients who became control freaks by using a false religion and genocide. Surely a race which can produce individuals like that isn't highly evolved. All the evidence in the Stargate universe indicates that Ancients had all the faults and failings of ordinary humans but were just able to create bigger explosions.

evolution has nothing to do with being good or bad.

If Ancients existed and decided that you were inferior so could be locked up in a cage and experimented on would you be happy with the idea? A Wraith is physically superior to humans and many of them have superior mind powers as well. Would you be happy with being a Wraith lunch because you were regarded as being inferior?

of course not, but I would blame the wraith, not the ancients.
I'm not an ancient, I can't force them to treat me as one.

Why was it proper to conduct experiments on the Pegasus galaxy humans even thought they were sentient? Were the Asgard right to do this just because they had advanced technology?

The question still remains - what exactly is superior? Is it just bigger guns, space ships and technology that often creates disasters?

what was done was meant to assist these races, not exploit them.
and like it or not, they have more experience and understanding, not just technology.

[ciannwn]

evolution has nothing to do with being good or bad.

So Ancients are highly evolved because they could create advanced technology and, half way to ascension, could do things like telekenesis? If it's got nothing to do with being good or bad, why do so many people think that the Ancients were wise, good, benevolent, had high morals etc. just because they could build Stargates and better space ships?

of course not, but I would blame the wraith, not the ancients.

I wasn't suggesting that you blame the Ancients in this case. Wraith regard humans in the same way as our species regards so called 'lower' life forms. If a Wraith came along you'd be regarded as dinner unless you could persuade it to adopt you as a worshipper so you could serve his species. A Wraith Queen could throw you across a room, probe your mind, allow members of her hive to put a tracker in your back and hunt you for sport just because she could. Until we meet some friendly aliens like the Asgard who can help us build good space ships we're inferior to the Wraith in every way. Surely we'd have no right to object to the Wraith treating us as something to eat, hunt or keep as a servant/pet.

I'm not an ancient, I can't force them to treat me as one.

Would you want to be treated with consideration, though, even if you didn't have the Ancients' intellect and technological knowledge?

what was done was meant to assist these races, not exploit them. and like it or not, they have more experience and understanding, not just technology.

If evolution has nothing to do with being good or bad, why does it have anything with understanding?