Ancient tech and stargates

[LordAnubis]

In response to the mighty glowingjelyfish person who thinks he has the mystery solved:

Wow, it must be hard seeing where you're going when your head is so deeply and firmly wedged in your colon. Keep pulling, you might actually see the light of day one day.

You said:
those 'inferences' are tenuous at best. the closest would be the tests that frasier and the other doc said they did on ayiana's blood. but depending on what they tested for, the Ancients could simply have similar cell structure and chemistry.

Um, hehe, she said Ayiana was human in every way except a few minor biochemical variances. What do you think they tested for, Sexually Transmitted Diseases? No, they did a standard CBC, SMAC-21, viral load, and other normal blood work, among other standard tests (e.g., serum bilirubins, serum creatinines, dopamine levels, serotonin levels, etc.). Ayiana was just as human as you (well, that's debatable) and me, with the exception of some unknown biochemical differences. Hence, she was human but had some different blood chemistry most likely due to the geographic, climatic, and other differences found in her time.

You said:
several times ida/othalla is mentioned as the homeworld or colony of the asgard. only the protected planets and the research facility of the ancient asgard indicate any presence in the MW

Well, yes and no; what I recall being said was that they resided in the Ida galaxy on the planet Othalla and formerly Halla. If you ever saw "revelations", where the Asgard of today were doing genetic experiments on Asgard found in suspensed animation from 33,000 years ago,when they were able to reproduce sexually, Heimdall indicated that the Asgard from 33,000 years ago did not have FTL tech and traveled in slow sleeper ships; they were found in the MW galaxy. I guess reasonable inference here would be that their ship orginated from their homeworld in the MW, not Ida, since that would be one LOOOOOONG sleep. I would guess, and I admit I could be wrong, that they were from the MW, where they met the Ancients, the Nox, and the Furlings. It's doubtful the Asgard had the tech to galaxy hop until fairly recently (10,000 years or less). Most of the Asgard episodes have pretty much stated that Thor and his buddies reside in the Ida galaxy, but maintain vested interests in the MW galaxy. Why do you think they would give a rip about Cimmeria and the Red Sky planet and us and the Goa'uld presence if they were from the Ida galaxy? Maybe because this galaxy is their home galaxy? Ya think? Yep, I do, and I'm probably right <snarky grin>.

You said:
just consider the evolution of humanity. there are several different subspecies that looked similar to modern humans and if their subspecies survived might've approached our appearance more closely - there's a good artistic rendition of these from the discovery channel hosted by that actor from red october.

Yep, exactly true, but if you did a comprehensive genetic and biological analysis of each hominid, you would be able to tell (well, someone with a clue at least) that each hominid was of terrestrial origin. If Monkeyman B evolved, along a similar pattern of evolution, on Ganymede, then his DNA would be different, his skeletal structure would have some significant structural difference, his ocular orbits would be different...something would be different enough that his extraterrestrial origins would be noticed. The atmosphere on his planet might be thinner, requiring different lung capacity; the gravity might be heavier, which would require stronger muscles and more powerful ligament/tendon attachments.

Remember, no two planets are exactly alike;there will be differences in orbit/rotation, day/night cycle, temperature/climate, seaons, water/hydration, distance from the sun, pull of the tides, moon/no moon, terrain, etc. These planetary differences have a direct impact on the native life forms. It's axiomatic in biology. Things like that make a huge difference and while the differences between Martian Monkeyman and Earth Monkeyboy might be insignificant outwardly, once you cut them up and examined their innards and bloodwork, you'd see VAST differences rather than the minor differences Frasier noted in Ayiana. Remember my fly/bird analogy? To some alien observer, the butterfly and hummingbird might look a lot a like and they seem to be related, sorta-kinda. Once you cut them up and do a thorough analysis, you can see they are totally unrelated in almost every way. Do they teach that in community college bio?

You said:
nothing was mentioned in the show that ayiana had any such markers similar to other terran species. only some vague mentions of similar cell structures

Um, I covered this: Frasier clearly said Ayiana was human. Let's do a simple syllogism (you can look that up):
Humans are clearly biologically related to other terran species (vertebrate most notably). Ayiana was determined to be entirely human with minor biochemical differences. Therefore, Ayiana, like other humans, is biologically related to other Terran species. See how that works nicely?

You finally said:
still flawed and wishful thinking. C- try again

Ain't that cute? Ya got guts and you made a valiant effort, but you're rejecting my arugment out of emotion, not solid science. What is that makes you resist this theory so much? So often in Sci-fi, the Humans of Earth are portrayed as bumbling, primitive, backward, savage morons who are weak and fall victim to the powerful aliens. I wont list all of the movies/shows that have portrayed this way. Even in the ST universe, the Earth ppl were the last to develop warp tech, etc. Man, even the stupid, war-like Klingons, with little brain power, had warp tech hundreds of years before us. The cool thing about the Ancient-Earth theory is that we have a heritage to be proud of. Our distant ancestors invented the gates, FTL ships, transporter rings, time machines, healing devices, and flying freakin' cities. That's some impressive $h|t. [/I]

[I]I think it's cool that the Ancients were god-like humans. It's a nice twist.
Jared

[glowingjelyfish]

Yep, exactly true, but if you did a comprehensive genetic and biological analysis of each hominid, you would be able to tell (well, someone with a clue at least) that each hominid was of terrestrial origin. If Monkeyman B evolved, along a similar pattern of evolution, on Ganymede, then his DNA would be different, his skeletal structure would have some significant structural difference, his ocular orbits would be different...something would be different enough that his extraterrestrial origins would be noticed. The atmosphere on his planet might be thinner, requiring different lung capacity; the gravity might be heavier, which would require stronger muscles and more powerful ligament/tendon attachments.

Remember, no two planets are exactly alike;there will be differences in orbit/rotation, day/night cycle, temperature/climate, seaons, water/hydration, distance from the sun, pull of the tides, moon/no moon, terrain, etc. These planetary differences have a direct impact on the native life forms. It's axiomatic in biology. Things like that make a huge difference and while the differences between Martian Monkeyman and Earth Monkeyboy might be insignificant outwardly, once you cut them up and examined their innards and bloodwork, you'd see VAST differences rather than the minor differences Frasier noted in Ayiana. Remember my fly/bird analogy? To some alien observer, the butterfly and hummingbird might look a lot a like and they seem to be related, sorta-kinda. Once you cut them up and do a thorough analysis, you can see they are totally unrelated in almost every way. Do they teach that in community college bio?

how many times must we review this? I'll go slow......unless you have some secret knowledge - there's no reason to believe, including your reasons, that evolution upon another world CAN'T produce similar end organism, given the same situations to confront, the current organism depends on prior ancestors and the niches they are attempting to fill which will craft their genetic makeup

Um, I covered this: Frasier clearly said Ayiana was human. Let's do a simple syllogism (you can look that up):
Humans are clearly biologically related to other terran species (vertebrate most notably). Ayiana was determined to be entirely human with minor biochemical differences. Therefore, Ayiana, like other humans, is biologically related to other Terran species. See how that works nicely?

I remember it quite well, however, you can review my past arguments to demonstrate how such similarities might occur and nothing you said undercuts them or advances your theory beyond mine.

Ain't that cute? Ya got guts and you made a valiant effort, but you're rejecting my arugment out of emotion, not solid science. What is that makes you resist this theory so much? So often in Sci-fi, the Humans of Earth are portrayed as bumbling, primitive, backward, savage morons who are weak and fall victim to the powerful aliens. I wont list all of the movies/shows that have portrayed this way. Even in the ST universe, the Earth ppl were the last to develop warp tech, etc. Man, even the stupid, war-like Klingons, with little brain power, had warp tech hundreds of years before us. The cool thing about the Ancient-Earth theory is that we have a heritage to be proud of. Our distant ancestors invented the gates, FTL ships, transporter rings, time machines, healing devices, and flying freakin' cities. That's some impressive $h|t. [/I]

To summarize, your arguments are based upon similar function not producing similar anatomy, cities birds versus insects etc. mine, propose that evolution upon another world could confront similar situations that would generate similar organisms to humanity, and that although the former can be true, evidence exists for real organisms to assume similar shapes and chemistries.
none of your arguments invalidate my theory, simply complement it.


postscript - although I never attended community college I have read of several business men and scientists that operate multimillion dollar businesses or contributed to the scientific knowledge base quite admirably. also several distinguished judges. on their behalf, though i don't know them personally, I want to say that you're a fool and a moron and I hope you encounter someone like them in your career- and they change the course of it for the worse.

that covers everything I think - once again it needs work and is speculative

[terraatlantus]

Wow, it must be hard seeing where you're going when your head is so deeply and firmly wedged in your colon. Keep pulling, you might actually see the light of day one day.

only those insecure with their arguments logically need to prop up their own value by degrading the value of others

Um, hehe, she said Ayiana was human in every way except a few minor biochemical variances. What do you think they tested for, Sexually Transmitted Diseases? No, they did a standard CBC, SMAC-21, viral load, and other normal blood work, among other standard tests (e.g., serum bilirubins, serum creatinines, dopamine levels, serotonin levels, etc.). Ayiana was just as human as you (well, that's debatable) and me, with the exception of some unknown biochemical differences. Hence, she was human but had some different blood chemistry most likely due to the geographic, climatic, and other differences found in her time.

what the hell, you are DELUSIONAL, STOP speculating wildly on the nature of the tests done, to my knowledge they only discussed her cell structure similarities in a general way, you CANT fill in the blanks like that and say *I'm* right. blood chemistry differences due to geography, climate etc? my point was that evolution would devise similar chemical, biological differences to solve a problem thus the similarities

Well, yes and no; what I recall being said was that they resided in the Ida galaxy on the planet Othalla and formerly Halla. If you ever saw "revelations", where the Asgard of today were doing genetic experiments on Asgard found in suspensed animation from 33,000 years ago,when they were able to reproduce sexually, Heimdall indicated that the Asgard from 33,000 years ago did not have FTL tech and traveled in slow sleeper ships; they were found in the MW galaxy. I guess reasonable inference here would be that their ship orginated from their homeworld in the MW, not Ida, since that would be one LOOOOOONG sleep. I would guess, and I admit I could be wrong, that they were from the MW, where they met the Ancients, the Nox, and the Furlings. It's doubtful the Asgard had the tech to galaxy hop until fairly recently (10,000 years or less). Most of the Asgard episodes have pretty much stated that Thor and his buddies reside in the Ida galaxy, but maintain vested interests in the MW galaxy. Why do you think they would give a rip about Cimmeria and the Red Sky planet and us and the Goa'uld presence if they were from the Ida galaxy? Maybe because this galaxy is their home galaxy? Ya think? Yep, I do, and I'm probably right <snarky grin>.

that epi said the ship was found in the void between galaxies. *your snarky grin is thus interpreted as a fool self satisfaction*

Yep, exactly true, but if you did a comprehensive genetic and biological analysis of each hominid, you would be able to tell (well, someone with a clue at least) that each hominid was of terrestrial origin. If Monkeyman B evolved, along a similar pattern of evolution, on Ganymede, then his DNA would be different, his skeletal structure would have some significant structural difference, his ocular orbits would be different...something would be different enough that his extraterrestrial origins would be noticed. The atmosphere on his planet might be thinner, requiring different lung capacity; the gravity might be heavier, which would require stronger muscles and more powerful ligament/tendon attachments.

Remember, no two planets are exactly alike;there will be differences in orbit/rotation, day/night cycle, temperature/climate, seaons, water/hydration, distance from the sun, pull of the tides, moon/no moon, terrain, etc. These planetary differences have a direct impact on the native life forms. It's axiomatic in biology. Things like that make a huge difference and while the differences between Martian Monkeyman and Earth Monkeyboy might be insignificant outwardly, once you cut them up and examined their innards and bloodwork, you'd see VAST differences rather than the minor differences Frasier noted in Ayiana. Remember my fly/bird analogy? To some alien observer, the butterfly and hummingbird might look a lot a like and they seem to be related, sorta-kinda. Once you cut them up and do a thorough analysis, you can see they are totally unrelated in almost every way. Do they teach that in community college bio?

how many times must we review this? I'll go slow......unless you have some secret knowledge - there's no reason to believe, including your reasons, that evolution upon another world CAN'T produce similar end organism, given the same situations to confront, the current organism depends on prior ancestors and the niches they are attempting to fill which will craft their genetic makeup

Um, I covered this: Frasier clearly said Ayiana was human. Let's do a simple syllogism (you can look that up):
Humans are clearly biologically related to other terran species (vertebrate most notably). Ayiana was determined to be entirely human with minor biochemical differences. Therefore, Ayiana, like other humans, is biologically related to other Terran species. See how that works nicely?

I remember it quite well, however, you can review my past arguments to demonstrate how such similarities might occur and nothing you said undercuts them or advances your theory beyond mine.

Ain't that cute? Ya got guts and you made a valiant effort, but you're rejecting my arugment out of emotion, not solid science. What is that makes you resist this theory so much? So often in Sci-fi, the Humans of Earth are portrayed as bumbling, primitive, backward, savage morons who are weak and fall victim to the powerful aliens. I wont list all of the movies/shows that have portrayed this way. Even in the ST universe, the Earth ppl were the last to develop warp tech, etc. Man, even the stupid, war-like Klingons, with little brain power, had warp tech hundreds of years before us. The cool thing about the Ancient-Earth theory is that we have a heritage to be proud of. Our distant ancestors invented the gates, FTL ships, transporter rings, time machines, healing devices, and flying freakin' cities. That's some impressive $h|t. [/I]

To summarize, your arguments are based upon similar function not producing similar anatomy, cities birds versus insects etc. mine, propose that evolution upon another world could confront similar situations that would generate similar organisms to humanity, and that although the former can be true, evidence exists for real organisms to assume similar shapes and chemistries.
none of your arguments invalidate my theory, simply complement it.

as an aside, I want to express contempt for your abuse of my intelligence simply because I disagree with you. I don't know what your social experience is, but my mine is that insulting and degrading the personal qualities of the originator of the competing theory never wins out in the end, and it always makes you enemies. but I suppose you won't learn that till you try your style at a few scientific panels discussing research, I know I would enjoy the kind of attitude readjustment they will give you.


postscript - although I never attended community college I have read of several business men and scientists that operate multimillion dollar businesses or contributed to the scientific knowledge base quite admirably. also several distinguished judges. [mod snip]

that covers everything I think - you're still wildly speculating



I second

[LordAnubis]

only those insecure with their arguments logically need to prop up their own value by degrading the value of others



what the hell, you are DELUSIONAL, STOP speculating wildly on the nature of the tests done, to my knowledge they only discussed her cell structure similarities in a general way, you CANT fill in the blanks like that and say *I'm* right. blood chemistry differences due to geography, climate etc? my point was that evolution would devise similar chemical, biological differences to solve a problem thus the similarities



that epi said the ship was found in the void between galaxies. *your snarky grin is thus interpreted as a fool self satisfaction*




how many times must we review this? I'll go slow......unless you have some secret knowledge - there's no reason to believe, including your reasons, that evolution upon another world CAN'T produce similar end organism, given the same situations to confront, the current organism depends on prior ancestors and the niches they are attempting to fill which will craft their genetic makeup




I remember it quite well, however, you can review my past arguments to demonstrate how such similarities might occur and nothing you said undercuts them or advances your theory beyond mine.




To summarize, your arguments are based upon similar function not producing similar anatomy, cities birds versus insects etc. mine, propose that evolution upon another world could confront similar situations that would generate similar organisms to humanity, and that although the former can be true, evidence exists for real organisms to assume similar shapes and chemistries.
none of your arguments invalidate my theory, simply complement it.

as an aside, I want to express contempt for your abuse of my intelligence simply because I disagree with you. I don't know what your social experience is, but my mine is that insulting and degrading the personal qualities of the originator of the competing theory never wins out in the end, and it always makes you enemies. but I suppose you won't learn that till you try your style at a few scientific panels discussing research, I know I would enjoy the kind of attitude readjustment they will give you.


postscript - although I never attended community college I have read of several business men and scientists that operate multimillion dollar businesses or contributed to the scientific knowledge base quite admirably. also several distinguished judges. on their behalf, though i don't know them personally, I want to say that you're a fool and a moron and I hope you encounter someone like them in your career- and they change the course of it for the worse.

that covers everything I think - you're still wildly speculating



I second

Ya know, if you actually had a clue, you would have seen that my initial posts were pretty nice and friendly and opened debate; however, Mr. Jellyfish attacked my "theory", which isn't fact, and went on and on about it. So, I rebutted in kind. Notice my smileys. I am not taking this serious like you two are. I suggest you calm down and take this with an open mind rather than a closed one.

Second, who are you? Are you Jellyfish? You only have one post here. So, unless you have two accounts, which isn't really that cool, and are a faceless/nameless coward who can't use his "regular" account, you have no prior theories and no prior posts for me to compare or note.

Third, I can tell you have no training in the biological sciences. I don't know what your major is, or was, or will be, but it's not biology, biochemistry, or anthropology -- that's for sure. If you're going to discuss your opinions, back them up with facts like I did. Sure, some of my theory is speculation, but jellyfish's theory is pure supposition that goes against Stargate canon and scientific canon.

Fourth, my style can be abrupt and in-your-face at times. I try to be open-minded and love a rational debate, but when people like you and jellyfish come along, I get pissed and feel compelled to point out scientific fact. My arguments invalidate your theory because you have done nothing to advance your point, which is: The Ancients did not evolve on Earth. Why you believe this is your business, and probably no one on this forum gives a crap either way.

Fifth, Heimdall never said it was found in a void between Ida and MW. I don't recall that part at all, however, if I'm mistaken, and Heimdall did say that, then I suppose that would back the Asgard being from Ida argument, which is cool by me. If Friday, they announced the Ancients evolved on Pluto from plankton that came from interstellar spores from the Bunghole Galaxy, I would smile and laugh and say "whatever." I mean, it's just a show. The writers have given us many inconsistencies over the last 8 years. Same with SGA.

In Atlantis, they tell us the Wraith defeated the Ancients with tech that rivaled the Ancients, yet so far, I've seen a bunch of lame goons get their asses kicked every time by a bunch of primitive humans. Hardly consistent, but it's still a new show, so I'm giving it time. I could go on and on about inconsistencies, but the thing is, I don't write the show. If they say something is a fact, I'll go with it. I dont' care. I'm not invested in my theory, but since I'm a biology major at a major four year university, I tend to look at the biological aspect of Stargate from a different perspective.

If I were a physics major, I would look at the technology aspect differently, but physics isn't my strong point, so I just accept whatever Carter or McCay says. In ST, a lot of what they say is pure garbage -- completely made up, but my best friend is a physics major and math minor and he tells me a lot of the stargate technobabble is accurate and true. I respect that. I dont respect when they introduce the Ancients and their Earth links, but don't explain where they evolved.

The main thrust of what Im saying is: calm the hell down and let it go. I could be right (and I am ), you could be right, or neither one of us could be right. Who knows? Only the writers know.

Maybe I'm a fool and a moron like you say I am, but at least I'm educated and bettering myself and at least I tried to engage your or Mr. Jellyfish in an open, rational debate. You chose to make it personal, which is your preogative. I think you've shown that you're a sneaky, deceptive and hostile person. This is obvious by your need to change account names from jellyfish to terraalanthus. Rest assured, this will be reported. I suggest you seek professional help and leave this forum.

Thanks,
Jared W./Lordanubis

[terraatlantus]

Third, I can tell you have no training in the biological sciences. I don't know what your major is, or was, or will be, but it's not biology, biochemistry, or anthropology -- that's for sure. If you're going to discuss your opinions, back them up with facts like I did. Sure, some of my theory is speculation, but jellyfish's theory is pure supposition that goes against Stargate canon and scientific canon.

how can the theory opposing yours go against stargate and scientific canon when they make no definitive statment about the origin of the ancients. answer: it doesn't there's certainly no scientific canon concerning how alien lifeforms might evolve - it's all pure supposition

Fourth, my style can be abrupt and in-your-face at times. I try to be open-minded and love a rational debate, but when people like you and jellyfish come along, I get pissed and feel compelled to point out scientific fact. My arguments invalidate your theory because you have done nothing to advance your point, which is: The Ancients did not evolve on Earth. Why you believe this is your business, and probably no one on this forum gives a crap either way.

neither points have an advantage or have discredited the other. again, no experience or examples of alien life, just the fossil record and current biological science

The main thrust of what Im saying is: calm the hell down and let it go. I could be right (and I am ), you could be right, or neither one of us could be right. Who knows? Only the writers know.

agreed. tho the calming down needs to be bilateral here

Maybe I'm a fool and a moron like you say I am, but at least I'm educated and bettering myself and at least I tried to engage your or Mr. Jellyfish in an open, rational debate. You chose to make it personal, which is your preogative. I think you've shown that you're a sneaky, deceptive and hostile person. This is obvious by your need to change account names from jellyfish to terraalanthus. Rest assured, this will be reported. I suggest you seek professional help and leave this forum.

from what I read, you were never insulted during these posts till the last post or so, it was lordanubis who started with the name calling. you need to learn that 'wildly speculative' does not equal 'complete moron'. lastly who cares, report away!

[GateWorld]

Let's all take a few deep breaths and calm down. We'll close this thread for a cooling-off period, and to give members new and old a chance to revisit the forum rules -- especially the one about respecting other users and not levying personal insults:

http://forum.gateworld.net/faq.php?f...sics#faq_rules

We can open this thread later, if there is still interest in discussion the topic within the bounds of the forum rules.

Darren