A Goa'uld by any other name...Tok'ra/Goa'uld/Jaffa question

[LordAnubis]

Here's one to think about:

To a Jaffa, a Goa'uld is a god. Jaffa may not worship other Goa'ulds, but they respect and fear them. Since a Tok'ra is basically a good Goa'uld, why don't the Jaffa fear/respect the Tok'ra?

We've seen episodes where the Jaffa kill Tok'ra, treat them like crap, and in some cases, talk down to them. Um, I dunno...for some reason, this seems inconsistent. If I were a Jaffa and my God told me to kill something that was basically the same as my God, I would feel a little weird. If that Tok'ra is the same as you, and he can die, why am I sitting here worshipping your lying butt as a God?

Maybe this is a totally stupid question, but it really bugs me. The Tok'ra have the same weird voice, glowing eyes, and other Goa'uld qualities...the Jaffa should hestitate and think twice if they are so conditioned to fear/respect Goa'ulds.

[Croatoan]

Here's one to think about:

To a Jaffa, a Goa'uld is a god. Jaffa may not worship other Goa'ulds, but they respect and fear them. Since a Tok'ra is basically a good Goa'uld, why don't the Jaffa fear/respect the Tok'ra?

We've seen episodes where the Jaffa kill Tok'ra, treat them like crap, and in some cases, talk down to them. Um, I dunno...for some reason, this seems inconsistent. If I were a Jaffa and my God told me to kill something that was basically the same as my God, I would feel a little weird. If that Tok'ra is the same as you, and he can die, why am I sitting here worshipping your lying butt as a God?

Maybe this is a totally stupid question, but it really bugs me. The Tok'ra have the same weird voice, glowing eyes, and other Goa'uld qualities...the Jaffa should hestitate and think twice if they are so conditioned to fear/respect Goa'ulds.

If you think about our own world and religious extremist like those of the middleast cultures. (THink of those who think dying to kill someone not of their religion gets them 77 virigins.) These cultures believe to their deepest core in their god and will do anything to gain favor to them.

The jaffa in the serice of the goa'uld not only have their misguided faith that make them religious extremist. They also have a strong case of negative reinforcment often times which is death when they dont listen. Ultimatly only a handful of the most loyal and trusted are even allowed to understand the full extent of alot of the goa'uld technology

Spoiler:

We know this from when teal'c was brain washed. ONe of his flashbackes takes him to when bratac tells him to wake up he knows as they know that the gods are no gods. They are simply too powerful to oppose.

I think so few see this aspect not enough of them could rebell at once to do any good, the rest are simply religious fanatics willing to fight against rival gods for afterlife rewards...........

In regards to jaffa and tokra.............

I simply chaulk this up to the fact that to a jaffa they arent as socially minded as humans. "They are breed to serve, to fight so that they might live." Their inbreed instincts are to be war like. Now to nomadic tribes on earth they are incapabile in most causes of differentiating between things that are extremely similar. I think the jaffa though definatly smarter jsut have a hard time dealing with the fact that the same parasite that enslaves their culture is also the tok'ra.

Lets face it even though tok'ra say they arent goa'uld........they are. Its like democrates saying were not human. THey can say it all they want their genetics speak the truth. They are simply not of the same social and political agenda as those they are choosing not to associate with.

(no disrepsect intended to democrates.)

[Lugal]

Here's one to think about:

To a Jaffa, a Goa'uld is a god. Jaffa may not worship other Goa'ulds, but they respect and fear them. Since a Tok'ra is basically a good Goa'uld, why don't the Jaffa fear/respect the Tok'ra?

Why don't Christians respect and fear Satan? Satan is a fallen angel, the embodiement of evil. I'm sure the Goa'uld have told them for generations that the Tok'ra are evil. And the Tok'ra have no real power to counter that belief, unlike other System Lords who have legions of armies, ships, and weapons.

[aschen]

Why don't Christians respect and fear Satan? Satan is a fallen angel, the embodiement of evil. I'm sure the Goa'uld have told them for generations that the Tok'ra are evil. And the Tok'ra have no real power to counter that belief, unlike other System Lords who have legions of armies, ships, and weapons.

That actually brings up one of the major flaws in the belief and worship of Satan/Lucifer and the discrediment of the christian god. If "god" made Lucifer, then they would have to believe in "god" itself.

All religions are basically static though. There is just as much proof to the existance of the christian-judeo god as there is to Odin, Thor and Zeus.

[Greesha]

That actually brings up one of the major flaws in the belief and worship of Satan/Lucifer and the discrediment of the christian god. If "god" made Lucifer, then they would have to believe in "god" itself.

believing in god and worshipping god are two entirely different things. but i'm getting off-topic.


back to the tok'ra/jaffa question...the goa'uld also order the jaffa to attack other goa'uld, and they do it - same concept as a jaffa attacking a tok'ra. it doesn't matter that they're the same race. humans are all the same race and we kill each other all the time.

[Jprime]

Do you mean FREE jaffa? If so, they recognise a Goa'uld for what it is, a small slimy reptile embedded in a hosts brain, controlling others through advanced technology. Therefore they must realize that that Tok'ra are not gods, nor do they pretend to be.

[Ancient 1]

Originally Posted by LordAnubis:
To a Jaffa, a Goa'uld is a god. Jaffa may not worship other Goa'ulds, but they respect and fear them. Since a Tok'ra is basically a good Goa'uld, why don't the Jaffa fear/respect the Tok'ra?

It's simple; the Goa'uld are the only ones that can exert their power...to the point where the Jaffa have only rumors that the Tok'ra even existed, until the alliance.

[LordAnubis]

Thanks for the great replies. I was just curious about this whole concept. I think all of you are right. It's such a weird social dynamic: the Goa'uld/Jaffa relationship thing. I wonder what will happen to the Jaffa once the Goa'uld are wiped out? Who knows. Maybe they'll end up opening Coney Island restaurants on Earth and Chulak and yelling "Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger, KREE!"

[Newbie]

Hopefully, Jaffa will join the resistance, so that by the end of Goa'uld, they already know what are they going to do. Probably they will start using the drugs, and then with time, adjust and won't need the drugs nor the larva. But that's the happy ending...

[akren]

still don't know why the Free Jaffa don't just grind up their immature symbionts into tretonin & play incubator to maturing Tok'Ra symbionts until they can find a suitable host/partner

Spoiler:

that was, assuming Egeria survived, or there is another Queen amongst the Tok'Ra

.

As for the Jaffa worshiping the Goa'uuld as gods, you are correct - they are only supposed to worship the Goa'uuld they are in service to, & respect/fear the other 'gods' (Goa'uuld) - unless pressed into service or they become traitors/shol'va to their original masters.

And aschen is right IMHO : belief & practice are two very different, yet connected, topics/things.

I also tend to agree with LordAnubis in that if they were killing the Tok'Ra, why would the Jaffa be justified in worshipping the Goa'uuld as gods if they are virtually one & the same (but differ ideologically/philospohically)?

It also has alot to do with fear/tyranny, ignorence & oppression : alot of Jaffa know/knew the Goa'uuld were not gods, they just didnt have the man power or resources to do anythign baout it until Teal'c led the way. Knowledge is power, freedom & free thought is dangerious, & this is why extremists - of any creed/religion/background - & tyrants seek to oppress others, restrict knoweldge & control information/propganda in order to maintain their control & hold over others (just a thought! ).

The Christian/general Monotheastic belief in God/Satan brings a duality/dicotamy to releigion & allows others to blame a medivial pagan figure (i.e: the Devil made me do it!) - which in truth has northing to do with Satan (he is, after all, a purely Christian concept, insofar as I am aware). In order to beleive in one, you must believe in the other.

Islam, on the other hand, even though it acknlowedges Satan, does not encourage belief in him/it (fear of something only increases its power over you & makes it seem scarier than it may actually be); & Muslims are taught to take shelter form Satan in Allah (God) & by doing good deeds & living a morally pure/good life as best they can.

Christians, in turn, are tuahgt to renounce Satan & seek shelter in Jesus, pray, & generally be good people & emulate Jesus' life & teachings & learn from the parables, lessons & stories in the Bible.

Other religions, cults (yes, not all cults are bad : the Cult of Isis for example) , faiths & creeds have varying degrees, modes & forms of worship & concepts of divinity; but no religion I am actively aware of - at least generally speaking & in their purest forms - promotes the killing, murder or annihilation of others or other points of view.

It is only when taken to the extreme (& yes, one can be devout & not religious or an extremist! ) that such concepts & religions - like anything used for personal gain or twisted to serve ill-gotten ends - become a threat & a hinderence to others & their way(s) of life & their freedom, liberities, & basic Human rights.

To qoute President George W. Bush (Jnr), the Holy Qu'ran, SG-1, the Wiccan Creed & various other sources :

"Islam is not the enemy"

"Unto you, your religion; & me, mine"

"What defines a god? Is it proof of their power, or how they choose to use that power?"

"Do what ye will but harm none"

"Knowest thou not that what thou seeketh thou wilst not find without thee until thee finds it within thee"

"Does your Holy Book condone murder/torture in the name of your god(s)? where does it say that in there [Tomin], where does it say it that?"

[josh]

goa'uld brainwash over milleniums that the tok'ra are evil and scum