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  1. #1
    Data ShadowMaat's Avatar
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    Default Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    This is a Jump the Shark speculation and discussion thread and it will, at all costs, remain on the subject of whether or not folks feel that the show has jumped the shark.

    THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO ATTACK YOUR FELLOW FANS FOR HAVING A DISAGREEABLE OPINION!!!

    There will be spoilers, as the title indicates, and they will cover everything that has happened on the show as well as the recent news of upcoming cast changes for season 4. You've been warned.

    I've recently seen people claiming that the "exploding tumors" storyline on Sunday was a "jump the shark" moment. Carson's death, Weir's reduced status and Sam's upcoming appearances have also been labeled as sharky moments in the show. I'm curious to see what else folks consider to be an unforgivable drop in quality?

    If I had to pick a moment when I think the show started to nosedive, I'd say it was the introduction of the Michael storyline. Don't get me wrong, I think Michael is a fascinating character and although I never really liked Enterprise and was exceedingly dubious about having Connor Trinneer guest star, I think he did a tremendous job with what he was given. HOWEVER, I take severe issue with the mind-blowing, near-genocidal stupidity required of Team Atlantis in order to make the plotline work. They were repetitively stupid and unthinking and made decisions (particularly in regards to security) that no one in their right minds would make. I HATE it when writers turn their characters into drooling imbeciles just to achieve some moronic plot device. It is, in my opinion, a sign of lazy writing.

    It was bad enough when it happened the first time but then they went ahead and repeated the same mistakes, making an unforgivable lapse in judgment even MORE outrageous. If they had been this stupid in season 1 they would all have been dead ten times over.

    I only watch intermittently now and only if my favorite character is in it (sometimes not even then) or in the rare exception when I think the story sounds good. Judging from the sheer wealth of (IMO) questionable changes coming up for season 4 I think it's pretty safe to say that I won't be watching.

    And no, obviously I haven't seen any eps of S4 yet but I am very much aware of what I like and what I don't like and I think that I am able to make a judgment call. For those who poo-poo such tactics I'll point out that unless you see each and every movie that comes out you must be making judgment calls "sight unseen" as well.

    So... How 'bout the rest of you?

  2. #2
    Major Franklyn Blaze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    I really tried to forget those retrovirus episodes even aired. It does seem like the show is jumping the shark. I'm none too impressed with the back half of season 3 and if the show keeps going in this direction in season 4 I will give up on it like I did enterprise. The season finale is going to have to really knock my socks off to keep me watching.

  3. #3
    Captain leelakin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Hmmmmm. I don't think there was a particular *moment* for me, though I stopped watching after Sunday.
    When I first heard of the rumours (well, I think the Carson rumour was first), I didn't believe them at all, even when they stayed and then N. John Smith let it slip... Yeah, so I was really taken aback that Carson would "disappear", how he called it. But naturally, I still had hope. Because even though TPTB had already found a replacement for him, disappearing isn't as bad as dying, right?
    While I was still discussing possible arcs for Carson with other fans, the rest of the news came up, like AT appearing on Atlantis, Elizabeth being made recurring, the "soft reset"... It pretty much felt like running into a wall, 'cause that's not how I wanted to see the show.
    The realization sunk in that there would be MANY new characters and a lot less of my favourite characters/character interactions.
    I guess "Sunday" was just the final straw for me, seeing that they had planned all along NOT to bring Carson back (not in a way that he was there before, anyway) and to have him die without a real reason. I know people say he died as a hero, but PLEASE, exploding tumours. It was such a cheap way to add danger and there was no need to off Carson at all.
    Oh, and I have to say that the way TPTB talked about the changes in the MGM interviews left me less than optimistic about everything. It just looked like my personal wishes (and those of many fans) wouldn't be acknowledged at all.

    I was so enthusiastic and happy about SGA when season 3 started, I'm kinda shocking myself by saying that I don't care what happens on the show anymore. *shrugs*
    I love the actors and the characters and the whole Stargate concept, YET I feel that I will stay happier if I don't watch SGA ever again, keep it in memory like it once was and retreat into a world of fanfiction when it comes to Stargate.

    And I won't be watching a 3rd series, either.
    Last edited by leelakin; January 27th, 2007 at 02:38 PM.

  4. #4
    Wade Welles sueKay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    SGA baited the shark when the offed Ford
    SGA circled the shark when they brought in the morally dubious retrovirus arc
    SGA attempted to jump the shark when they brought in lucius
    SGA nearly got nibbled on by the shark when lucius returned
    SGA jumped the shark when they killed off a lead character for no reason with an exploding tumour
    SGA will do a triple pike over the shark when uber-genius Keller arrives in a couple of episodes time
    SGA will drown (from jumping over the shark too many times) in mid s4 when the show either becomes 'Dr Keller saves the grown ups again' or becomes 'the Carter/McKay variety hour'

    Part 2 coming very soon!! (this is a fic btw, not the Fandemonium novel)

  5. #5
    Brigadier General SaberBlade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    I wouldn't go as far as to say "jumping the shark" but there have been times when they've just been really lazy.

    Michael is just a few steps short of becoming as unbelievable as Apophis. He could have easily just been written off as dead, yet he comes back but Kolya, who had this great dynamic and chemistry with Sheppard ends up with a bullet, with no acceptable way to bring him back without completely jumping the shark.

    The Asurian idea was completely weak and having them just show and kill all the Ancients just after they returned to Atlantis just screamed deus ex machina and lets not forget their ship just vanishing from existance. Asurians are just a complete rip from Replicators and the tumour, that I would accept as jumping the shark.

    I wouldn't however call Carter or Weir's reduced time as jumping the shark. Weir hasn't really did much so I can understand her reduced time, and Carter is just a bad cast decision as Jackson would overall fit better as he'd not take screen time away from anyone, plus Zalenka, an established character, could get more air time rather than bringing in someone who could be there just to come up with great ideas instead of McKay.



  6. #6
    General
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    The show hasn't jumped the shark.

  7. #7
    Lieutenant General prion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Quote Originally Posted by sueKay View Post
    SGA baited the shark when the offed Ford
    SGA circled the shark when they brought in the morally dubious retrovirus arc
    SGA attempted to jump the shark when they brought in lucius
    SGA nearly got nibbled on by the shark when lucius returned
    SGA jumped the shark when they killed off a lead character for no reason with an exploding tumour
    SGA will do a triple pike over the shark when uber-genius Keller arrives in a couple of episodes time
    SGA will drown (from jumping over the shark too many times) in mid s4 when the show either becomes 'Dr Keller saves the grown ups again' or becomes 'the Carter/McKay variety hour'
    OKay, when Ford went, that's not so much jumping the shark, at least to me.
    Lucius was definitely treading shark-infested waters, particularly in his second appearance.
    Exploding tumors? Well.... it is sci-fi and tumors can burst, but blow up.... yeah, stretching it. But then there is spontaneous combustion
    Can't comment on the others as season 4 isn't yet.

    However, with some of the writers, yes, the show can easily plunge into shark-infested waters....

  8. #8
    Lieutenant Colonel rarocks24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    I think the whole Michael thing was jumping the gun a bit. Not the initial turning of him, and not the turning of his hive, but to turn him back into a human against his wishes. Sorry, I think Michael should have been sharkbait (no pun intended), and I think it was recklessly foolish for them to have dropped the Wraith off on a world with a skeleton security team and no means of reinforcement.

    Atlantis really jumped the shark when they went with the Asuran storyline. The Asurans have so far been 2 dimensional, the exception being Niam, for a time. But even then he became two dimensional.

    The portrayal of the Ancients was reckless to an extent. Here they are, supposed to be the most powerful race to have existed, and they are so naive and arrogant. Of course, maybe it has something to do with the name, Atlantis, that turns everyone the same way.

    Another thing that bothers me is Rodney Mckay's attitude. Cute, for a little while, now it's become horrendously pathetic. Even when Rodney was supposed to have learned something in The Tao of Rodney, it's like they pushed reset button and he went back to being his old obnoxious self.

    So I don't think Atlantis is jumping into shark-infested waters...yet. But, in the words of Steven Colbert, "TPTB, You're on notice!"
    http://www.change.gov

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  9. #9
    Sheppard’s Golf Club Jackie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Quote Originally Posted by sueKay View Post
    SGA baited the shark when the offed Ford
    SGA circled the shark when they brought in the morally dubious retrovirus arc
    SGA attempted to jump the shark when they brought in lucius
    SGA nearly got nibbled on by the shark when lucius returned
    SGA jumped the shark when they killed off a lead character for no reason with an exploding tumour
    SGA will do a triple pike over the shark when uber-genius Keller arrives in a couple of episodes time
    SGA will drown (from jumping over the shark too many times) in mid s4 when the show either becomes 'Dr Keller saves the grown ups again' or becomes 'the Carter/McKay variety hour'
    LMAO--that's priceless.


    I haven't seen as many eps as the rest of ya--but that Micheal thing was stirring a moral debate and that I was intrested in. Of course the laxed security and super rodney is a bit unreal.

    I think what has irritated me the most is how much devlopment has been given to Rodney and hardly any to the others.

    The exploding tumor sounds just retarted. SHC has yet to be truely documanted. They might as well have placed carson in a field with cows and had him tipping cows. Claim he had gone insane and shipped him away. That would have been more intresting--like Frank Burns from MASH.

    I don't know if they have truely jumped the shark but they do seem to be looking for Jaws.

  10. #10
    Second Lieutenant theonebluegecko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    I do not think that the show has jumped the shark, although there are obviously changes in store I do not think that in the long run they will necessarily be detrimental to the show in general. (Although I have do add that could have done without the Asurians in general, so if I had to pick a negative change to the show that would be what I would pick).
    Weir: He's just a boy!
    Jinto: I am Jinto.
    Sheppard: She's pleased to meet you.

    I miss Jinto.

  11. #11
    Staff Sergeant squire.spotz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    the show is in the air falling into the mouth of the shark until the writers recover from MRS
    Say No to M.R.S (mathew reily syndrome)

  12. #12
    Staff Sergeant
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Quote Originally Posted by sueKay View Post
    SGA baited the shark when the offed Ford
    SGA circled the shark when they brought in the morally dubious retrovirus arc
    SGA attempted to jump the shark when they brought in lucius
    SGA nearly got nibbled on by the shark when lucius returned
    SGA jumped the shark when they killed off a lead character for no reason with an exploding tumour
    SGA will do a triple pike over the shark when uber-genius Keller arrives in a couple of episodes time
    SGA will drown (from jumping over the shark too many times) in mid s4 when the show either becomes 'Dr Keller saves the grown ups again' or becomes 'the Carter/McKay variety hour'
    [mod snip] for a "morally dubious" arc regarding the treatment of the Wraith. This is, after all, a species who would suck the very life from you given a chance. Morals are thrown out the nearest air lock in such scenarios.

    [mod snip - this is not a thread for attacking other people for their opinions.]
    Last edited by Madeleine; January 27th, 2007 at 09:55 PM.

  13. #13
    Colonel Lauriel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    I don't think they are "jumping the shark" although I am unsettled with so many drastic changes ("largely unexplained" shrills the lemming within). I am trying to stay optimistic however.

    My biggest concern, and the one that I feel could possibly be the one that is jumping the shark is that the picture below will represent the new order of things to come in Atlantis.



    I'd be really disappointed if that were the case.
    https://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i120/Lauriel_01/Sigs/lostboyswhump.jpg
    My LJ & Fics * Proud Member of W.A.S.P. * Pay It Forward

  14. #14
    Lieutenant Colonel cshawzye's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Has SGA jumped the shark? I’m not 100% sure but they do seem to be perched precariously close to the breaking point. I don’t want to say anything about season 4 yet because, like others have said, we haven’t seen it and therefore I cannot say if there has been a noticeable decline in the original quality and/or charm of the show. Although, now that my favorite character is gone I’m not very optimistic that the show will be as enjoyable for me as it once was. But, on the same token, I’m not sure that the show has jumped the shark with his departure. I think only time will tell and I’m still willing to give them a little time.

    In terms of them having passed their peak, I don’t know that SGA “has introduced plot twists that are illogical in terms of everything that has preceded them.” I do, however, think that some fairly sketchy choices have been made concerning some of the arcs and characters. IMO, this is especially true with arcs dealing with Koyla, Carson, Carter and Elizabeth. I think the way they’re going with these characters kills (or has killed) a lot of potential for great interactions and stories. Although I don’t know if it pushes them past that breaking point where the show has lost that special something it first had it does situate them fairly close to the edge of the cliff, IMHO. My view of the past and my feelings toward some of the announced changes make me very very concerned for the future of the show. All of the changes do make me think that very soon the show will be unrecognizable as the Atlantis that I first enjoyed and the idea that the “show has undergone too many changes to retain its original charm” is a very probable outcome of everything that is going on right now.

    All of that said though, I’m not sure that I can make a fair assessment, yet. I haven’t seen how these changes that concern me play out. Once I see a little bit more I think it will be easier to look back and say “yup that was the moment it happened, that’s when SGA jumped the shark” or “no, Atlantis is lucky it avoided the shark this time.”

  15. #15
    Colonel ToasterOnFire's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    In soviet Russia, sharks jump you!

    Seriously though, I'm not sure if Atlantis has or will have a definitive shark jumping scene or episode. I thought that TPTB really dropped the ball back in season two with many things - missing character development, missing team bonding moments, too many offworld babes, poor handling of the Michael arc to make the team look like idiots, dumping Ford only to bring on Ronon and not do anything with him either, ignoring the city, etc. etc. Season three had redeemed a lot of season two, but at the same time plenty of people think all the development and bonding now is too little too late. The shark jumping moment may end up being season two as a whole and all the opportunities that were missed.

  16. #16
    Lieutenant Colonel Mister Oragahn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMaat View Post
    So... How 'bout the rest of you?
    Well, I've been criticizing SGA a lot these last two years.

    While they were many defaults in the first season, it still was a good one, full of potential and DVD worthy.

    The second one started quite well, they even gave something to RSF and his Ford character, so they were quite correcting one of the issues of the former season. But then... crap hit the fan.

    First, it started with Runner. It was impossible for me to forget the out of universe reason why Ronon was introduced.
    Now, I've *****ed enough about Ronon, I won't waste more saliva on this "character".

    Then came the death blow. Duet. Or how a new spin off started.

    Stargate: Circus

    From there, McKay was overdone, given too much forced jokes. The whole tone of the episode was just ********.
    The point was not to make an episode with a bit of humour in it.
    The point was to make a funay episode. Period.

    Gladly, we didn't get that kind of crap in S1. I wonder why they thought it was necessary to refrain themselves from delivering such an episode for S1, but taking the oportunity to do it for S2.

    Then started a long chain of boring plots and most stories centered around the secret plot device of the week, with McKay's techwank saving the day.

    The enemies started to act as even bigger morons than ever.

    Some of the characters lost what actually made them credible (Duet for McKay, The Hive for Sheppard).

    Instinct was a formidable episode, but got so wasted for the last 10~15 minutes that I made me want to puke. It particularily well disclosed TPTB's intentions and lack of guts.

    And then there's that long list of dubious ethical choices the main characters keep making, but get so excused since they're *the heroes* you know.

    Plus that whole retrovirus nonsense. Just magical how a doctor from Earth just pops there and finds a solution to the Wraith problem. Just a F**king miracle! Right!

    So for me, it didn't take long after S2 started to see the whole boat sink.

  17. #17
    Second Lieutenant nonniemous's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Quote Originally Posted by ToasterOnFire View Post
    The shark jumping moment may end up being season two as a whole and all the opportunities that were missed.
    I agree with this 100%. They've tried this season to fix what they messed up in Season Two, flat story telling, rampant Rodneyopia that marginalized almost every other character, and introducing story arcs that needed a whole lot more depth and quality to the storytellng to pull off. They've made some good strides this season in addressing those issues, but
    Spoiler:
    dropping the Michael arc for what sounds like a "Stormship Troopers ripoff" and killing Carson off
    are simply amputations and they're hoping the tourniquets (aka Jewel's new character) will hold and prevent them from bleeding out. Trouble is that once the avalanche has started, well you know what they say about the pebbles. I think that due to the low ratings this season there are also a lot more chefs in the kitchen at this point, as in Skiffy pushing for an SG1 character to cross over rather than letting Bridge decide how to fix things. It's a cascading failure, and it goes right back to Season 2.

    The wasted potential in this show is absolutely the most frustrating thing about it for this fan.

    "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
    ~~Friedrich Nietzsche

  18. #18
    Staff Sergeant
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    Arrow Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMaat View Post
    For those who poo-poo such tactics I'll point out that unless you see each and every movie that comes out you must be making judgment calls "sight unseen" as well.

    So... How 'bout the rest of you?
    You'll get no poo-poo from me. I'm with you. In my case, I know what I like and don't like about the cast changes.

    As for jumping the shark: No, I don't think it's jumped. The cast changes will be weathered by the audience and they'll adjust. Season four will be quality yet; the writers have a boatload of experience behind them and do a good job for the most part. They still have their bells and whistles.

    I've never expected too much from the plots and they'll go in the same vein which is fine with a lot of viewers. If they start getting some really inane story lines or lose McKay or Shep, that's when the shark will start a-circlin'.

    Like leelakin, I'll be happier if I retreat and forget season four, remember how it was in the first 2.75 seasons or so and how McKay inspired me to write 5 fanfics. And again...(I'm so repeating myself, sorry--I'm in the acceptance stage, seriously!)...as sueKay called it, I'll never enjoy a "McKay/Carter Variety Hour". I still can't believe she's gating over. Carter is a long-established character who'll be a strong presence and I'm very disappointed she's joining SGA. It's no wonder Weir has been demoted.

    Too bad. What's done is done and good luck to the campaign for Beckett.

    <--- still the best, but better with Carson around -->

    (good discussion here, btw)

  19. #19
    First Lieutenant
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    I think it's too early to say that SGA has jumped the shark, though I think I see the sharks circling, smelling the blood. But it's still possible that TPTB can pull off a miraculous recovery in S4, though IMO, the possibility of that is slim. So I'm not ready yet to say the shark has jumped. But if the show does sink in S4, then I think I'd probably look back and say that the moment the show jumped shark was not a moment in the show itself, but the moment when a certain producer posted some remarks in his blog that rightly or wrongly was taken to imply that he thought of certain fans who objected to the cast changes / new direction of the show as "shrill, ill-informed lemmings."
    Keep Carson. Keep Elizabeth.
    Keep Atlantis.

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  20. #20
    Data ShadowMaat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Atlantis jumping in shark-infested waters? (spoilers for everything)

    Might have been a shark jump point on a certain career, if not necessarily the show. But then again, look at the things Aaron Sorkin said about West Wing fans and he's still big in Hollywood. *shrug*

    For me, at least, Atlantis has jumped the shark. I'm glad others are still convinced that there aren't even any fins in sight, but for those who can see the sharks circling... hope the Jaws theme doesn't get on your nerves.

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