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  1. #41
    Lieutenant Colonel IWantToBelieve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    I thought it was an excellent episode. Sheppard's interrogation scenes were the best, followed closely by Beckett's. Best line, "I was on an alien planet!" That whole scene had me ROTFL.

    I disagree with comparing Shep to O'Neill. Sheppard may share the same sarcasm, but that's about all. O'Neill is a very hard character, jaded, slow to trust, and there is a hardness to him. Sheppard may have a sardonic wit, but he's also trusting and has an innocence to him that O'Neill doesn't.

    The Hoffan's felt they had no choice in using the drug, but with a 50% mortality rate, they are going to do the wraith's job for them. They didn't discuss if the drug will have to be adminstered to each generation, which is kind of an important flaw in this situation. If it cost 50% for each generation, that's going to end up doing a lot of harm if the wraith don't wipe them out anyway (which I agree with Sheppard, they probably will, the wraith strike me as pretty nasty characters-go figure).

    Of course, the mortality rate could probably be lowered with more time and research but the prime research doctor died from her innoculation.

    Excellent growth with Beckett's character.

    Interesting dilemma for Weir to face, and it was nice to see she was up to the challenge.
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  2. #42
    Intergalactic Hussy
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    I liked it. It was an interesting moral dilemna. I agree that there needed to be more McKay but that's just because I wuv him. Paul McGillion did an excellent job though. I think that he's going to be the Teryl Rothery of Atlantis. Playing a big part but only given guest star status even into the 7th year of the show. At least I hope he stays around. I like him.

    And I too was disapointed that they killed off Steve. I think that they could hve done more with him. The whole naming him Steve thing made me see him more as a pet. One of the first things they tell people in labratory's doing animal testing (squick. Horrendous practice. Poor animals.) is not to name the animals because it promotes bonding. I was surprised that Shepard showed any compassion at all for Steve when he was dying after all the baiting he's done and how quick he was to run tests on him.

    Anyway, I thought it was a good ep and (yay!!!) there will be Colm Meaney next week. Woo hoo!

  3. #43
    Data ShadowMaat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shipperahoy
    I was surprised that Shepard showed any compassion at all for Steve when he was dying after all the baiting he's done and how quick he was to run tests on him.
    Speaking of bait, I think they should have used Bates as bait instead. Although now I'm curious. Bates- he WAS the guy guarding Steve, right?- said that Steve had given up trying to make him "see" things. Makes me wonder what he was seeing... and if the visions had really stopped or if Steve just got a lot more clever about what he showed him. *sigh* It all goes back to dumping off an interesting character too soon.

    I still want to know the purpose of that metal finger guard.

  4. #44
    Second Lieutenant TechnoBoY's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    I liked it but I also thought it was kinda boring for some reason. Good story though.

    One thing that always pisses me off is when the Earth teams need to judge everyone else. Okay so 50% of everyone will die. Well thats their choice isnt it? Shouldnt you still help them? Telling them you will never come back. Psh!

    Hey and isnt that the same lady who was in The Cure in Season 6?
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  5. #45

    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Enjoyed this one on quite a few levels.

    First up: Beckett. Gotta love this guy. The writers gave him a story with a medical/scientific challenge, a bonnie lass to work with, some big ethical issues, and finally, loss. That's...a LOT. Props to Paul McGillion for pulling it off very well. He manages to portray an intensely passionate character without falling into the "chewing the scenery" trap. Well done.

    Toning down McKay this week (although the whole rejected handshake thing was great) was appropriate. There's plenty of stuff for him to do in other eps.

    I liked the fact that this episode made you think; the Hoffans have very, very strong convictions about their history, their heritage, and their fight against the Wraith. The visitors from Atlantis also want to defeat the Wraith, but there's a conflict of some important values. Should the visitors judge the Hoffans by Earth standards? Do they have that right? Important issues of self-determination arise. (Importantly, the Chancellor shows consistency, and keeps his word re: sharing the outcome of the vote, and keeping with his plan, even though the visitors disagree. More importantly, Sheppard agrees to let the Hoffans proceed, and withdraws the team.)

    I wanted to smack Weir when she brought up the Geneva Convention. I'm not sure what part of "Laws and protocols from Earth aren't necessarily relevant in the Pegasus galaxy" she's not understanding.

    I'll miss Steve. (rofl!) He could have been useful, or at least entertaining, for a few more weeks. They need another Wraith-in-a-box. I'm wondering what "live stuff" Sheppard was referring to when he mentioned that the only things Wraith can feed on are humans. He'd attempted to keep Steve alive; and seemed genuinely concerned when he eventually died.

    I'm still ambivalent re: Teyla and (especially) Ford. The guy they have playing Stackhouse is a better actor and has a more military demeanor IMHO.

    Did anyone else find Sheppard's "dinner party" reference a tad callous, as he said it in front of poor Merrill (sp?)

    Perna was an obvious red shirt, but her actress did a good job.

    Lots of good stuff. Well done.
    We suspend our disbelief, and we are entertained...

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Overall, an A.

    So, are the Wraith around or were they all asleep in the buried ship on Tayla's planet? They sort of hibernate in between cullings? Still confused on this. The enemy is taking too long to gel in my befuddled brain.

    Shep looks unshaved, in a conference and on the planet. Looks unkempt, slightly unprofessional.

    Star Trek. McCoy. Beckett. love it love it love it

    Carson in love, cliché, but its Beckett so its charming, absolutely charming. Say 'slippery slope' more, please.

    Explains primitivism - Wraith cyclical culling. Makes sense, but I can get tired of fur bikinis. Unless they equal opportunity fur rumble bags.

    Weir, so far, so good. Administrator. Geneva Convention, etc. Making the tough decisions. One of the promos shows her kissing some guy. Eh. Not looking forward to administrator romance. Keep her in her office.

    Shep Very O'Neill with Steve
    Steve sounds like Tony Todd, but no

    Rodney, blinking. Oh, Rodney.

    Lt. Ford was Mayweatherish, but with attitude and dialogue. "Bye, Steve."

    Not peaceful Earth, spoiled rotten Earth, this is what sci fi can do, and my head doesn't hurt from the hammer blow ENT would have delivered.

    Ah, Beckett in love, soft music. Kiss her you fool!

    But no! Here we go - Heading down the wrong road. Ethical moral dilemma.

    Wraith Steve is gonna die anyway?! I thought they didn't die easily. In the pilot beckett said they don't die easy.

    Oriental Chevron guy, no Grodin. Boo.

    Bates, *******, again

    Bullet sounding dial up threw me off at first. Hadn't noted PJ dial up being so loud previously.

    Sacrifice guy too young. I would have liked Steve to go up against a little old lady. But, I suppose Steve wouldn't have fed if there was no beef, then.

    Oh, plot development. Defense changes to offense. Cure as bad as disease. As many people die with the cure as would verses the Wraith. And the natives are willing to go down that road. This is good.

    Holy Grail, what? How would the Chancellor know that simile!

    Beckett's gonna lose Perna. Noooooo. Even though you know its gonna happen, Tayla coming in and not saying anything like "It's Perna, she's dying." Good good.

    Good solid character and ethical dilemma driven episode. All of the characters were good, even this-isn't-the-way-the Wraith-work Tayla. Sheppard was just a little too smart-ass O'Neillesque. Kirk was gung-ho hero. Picard erudite. Crichton pop culture smart ass. Sheppard needs to move out of O'Neill's shadow. Are other people pitching and or writing for Atlantis?

  7. #47
    Staff Sergeant Faith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Could someone PM me and tell me how Steve the wraith died as I had walked outside to have a smoke and I missed that part.

    Thanks

  8. #48

    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    [snicker]

    Quote Originally Posted by Faith
    Could someone PM me and tell me how Steve the wraith died as I had walked outside to have a smoke and I missed that part.

    Thanks
    They gave him a pack of Marlboros.

    [/snicker]
    We suspend our disbelief, and we are entertained...

  9. #49
    Airman Jwizzman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    reasonable episode...not good...not bad
    steve was cool...but not even an atom of info from him! pretty useless

  10. #50
    Lieutenant Colonel Major Fischer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseRatched
    I wanted to smack Weir when she brought up the Geneva Convention. I'm not sure what part of "Laws and protocols from Earth aren't necessarily relevant in the Pegasus galaxy" she's not understanding.
    So which laws do you suggest they not obey? Murder? Theft? War crimes? I'm just curious. Lots of subjections that 'such and such doesn't apply', and Sheppard has a point--which Weir acknowledges--that the Wraith aren't exactly parties to the Geneva Convention, but I'm serious. Societies exist on the bases of shared moral values, enforced by written laws. You ignore the laws, you ignore the values.



  11. #51
    Staff Sergeant Faith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by NurseRatched
    [snicker]



    They gave him a pack of Marlboros.

    [/snicker]
    RolTFLMAO

  12. #52
    Major keshou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    I thought the introduction of "Steve" was a brilliant move in that I'm a lot more intrigued by the wraith than I was before. I think the makeup on these "fu manchu" male wraiths is much more convincing than the Marilyn Manson female wraith in the premiere. The actor portraying "Steve" also did a good job of not playing him too over-the-top.

    I liked having "Steve" around and the Shep/Steve conversations were a real highlight of the episode. I actually hoped his capture might lead to a little more of a story arc but it was still a pretty interesting episode. Maybe they'll capture another one - they can name him Freddy or something.
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  13. #53
    Chief Master Sergeant Hohenzollern's Avatar
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    Chevron Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by HIj'Qa
    ...So, are the Wraith around or were they all asleep in the buried ship on Tayla's planet? They sort of hibernate in between cullings? Still confused on this. ...
    The wraith Hive/Mother ship was landed upon a planet other than Teyla's.
    They did go to Teyla's planet (through gate in the "Dart" Fighters) for small (what I call) "sustaining/snack cullings".
    Once it was discovered that the wraith mothership seen in Ep 101 had lifted off, I assume it was on the loose and possibly headed for Atlantis, waking up others/reinforcements <?>.
    Steve's cryptic remarks (cursed lack of info) could indicate this.
    No idea if the ships <number unknown> all hibernate in unison or do they kind of do their own thing, are only loosely organized. I would think they are tightly organized (hive structure?), and all actively manage their "herds" by hibernating to conserve energy between cullings.

    The queen undoubtedly shared the information of earth's population count with the others...so they are all awake and in a frenzy to get to the location of Atlantis, find our address, use the Atlantis gate to get to Earth, etc.
    "Let's make it TEN. Ten's a nice...round...number..." -- Morty

  14. #54

    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Fischer
    So which laws do you suggest they not obey? Murder? Theft? War crimes? I'm just curious. Lots of subjections that 'such and such doesn't apply', and Sheppard has a point--which Weir acknowledges--that the Wraith aren't exactly parties to the Geneva Convention, but I'm serious. Societies exist on the bases of shared moral values, enforced by written laws. You ignore the laws, you ignore the values.

    You're forgetting that I said "don't necessarily apply" That's a qualified statement. Both the SGA team and the Hoffans have a shared value - that the Wraith are their enemy; it's just that their opinions on how to deal with them varied. At no point did I suggest or condone that murder/theft/war crimes/whatever would be acceptable...last week the issue of taking the ZPM from the planet in "Childhood's End" was explored, and deemed unacceptable. They could have just kept it if they had really wanted to...

    Also, in "Childhood's End" Sheppard clearly stated that on Earth human life was highly valued. To extend that regard of life to a race/species/whatever that openly states that it values human life only as a food source is a tad...ridiculous. It's been made clear so far that the Wraith have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. (I'm suddenly reminded of the "Just because they're big bad nasty aliens, that doesn't mean they don't have rights" statement from "Wormhole Extreme"). Would you, Major Fischer, extend that regard to say, the creature from "Alien"? Didn't think so.
    We suspend our disbelief, and we are entertained...

  15. #55
    Lieutenant Colonel Major Fischer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    I would be more than a little disturbed if someone on the show HADN'T mentioned the Geneva Convention.



  16. #56
    Lieutenant Colonel Ugly Pig's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Everyones favorite self-important barn yard animal is back!

    PIGGY'S USELESS OPINION
    of 'Poisoning the Well'

    To be honest, I wasn't expecting much from this episode, but it turned out to be pretty decent. While McKay was absent for most of it (which probably played a big part in its relatively low humor quantity), it was very heavy on Dr. Beckett. Which was nice, as he got to play the central character for most of the episode.

    Steve the Wraith (loved that!! ) was put to good use in the story. I was wondering what they were going to do with that particular left-over plot thread from 'Suspicion', but I can't help but feel a little dissappointed that he got killed off so quickly. But I guess it wouldn't have been such a good idea story-wise to keep him around forever.

    A major plus for the episode was it's dark ending. It's refreshing to see that once in a while, our heroes don't succeed in getting the folks they meet to see things their way. While I doubt it will happen, I hope we do get to see the aftermath of the people's decision.

    And now, once again, to wait for next week... For which the previews look very promising.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    I guess I'm in the minority here. The team becomes awful preachy at the end. These people have been decimated for 100s of centuries. This is their first chance to be able to fight the Wraith.

    Now the questions, which should have received more attention are this:
    1. When the wraith do reach Hoff and find not only can't they feed, but they die as well, what will they do?
    2. What kind of offensive weapons do the Wraith have? Would they decimate the surface of the planet with nuclear weapons for instance?
    3. Do the Wraith travel the Pegagsus galaxy by Stargate or do they have instellar drive abilities, or do they sleep for years and years as they travel at light speed from one star system to another.

    I can understand the team warning the Hoff's of the possible pitfalls of the drug, and even saying that they wouldn't help develop a drug that kills at a 50% rate, but on the other hand, I would have thought they would have admired the Hoff's bravery and understood their motivation.

    Plus, let's say one of SGA's teams is stuck on a world and about to be overrun by Wraiths. Wouldn't you at least like to have the option of injecting this drug in an emergency?

    Finally, shouldn't there be a computer on Atlantis that could scan this Wraith repelent serum and modify it so that it works 100%? This wasn't even addressed. They are on an Ancient city-state/spaceship, right? : )

    So far, SGA has disappointed me, just a little. The writing needs to be tightened up, to0 many plot holes. This just shouldn't be happening on a show that has 7 years of experience to draw from.

  18. #58
    Second Lieutenant TheHomegaMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpy guy
    I guess I'm in the minority here. The team becomes awful preachy at the end. These people have been decimated for 100s of centuries. This is their first chance to be able to fight the Wraith.

    Now the questions, which should have received more attention are this:
    1. When the wraith do reach Hoff and find not only can't they feed, but they die as well, what will they do?
    2. What kind of offensive weapons do the Wraith have? Would they decimate the surface of the planet with nuclear weapons for instance?
    3. Do the Wraith travel the Pegagsus galaxy by Stargate or do they have instellar drive abilities, or do they sleep for years and years as they travel at light speed from one star system to another.

    I can understand the team warning the Hoff's of the possible pitfalls of the drug, and even saying that they wouldn't help develop a drug that kills at a 50% rate, but on the other hand, I would have thought they would have admired the Hoff's bravery and understood their motivation.

    Plus, let's say one of SGA's teams is stuck on a world and about to be overrun by Wraiths. Wouldn't you at least like to have the option of injecting this drug in an emergency?

    Finally, shouldn't there be a computer on Atlantis that could scan this Wraith repelent serum and modify it so that it works 100%? This wasn't even addressed. They are on an Ancient city-state/spaceship, right? : )

    So far, SGA has disappointed me, just a little. The writing needs to be tightened up, to0 many plot holes. This just shouldn't be happening on a show that has 7 years of experience to draw from.
    There's a difference between plot holes and not doing what you would have done.

    Based on what we saw during the attack on Athos in "Rising", we know that Darts are equipped with some kind of destructive weaponry. Tents were blowing up like mad during that sequence. My guess is that a massive force of Darts would come sweeping in and raze Hoff to the ground. That's probably what they do during cullings anyway, but now that have more motivation to do so.

    Frankly, I'd be pretty disappointed if they put the formula into some computer and were handed a perfect version. Its too deus ex machina for me. We don't know that the Atlantis computers are perfect, or even if we know how to use them. Other thank thinking about things in the jumpers or pushing the buttons on the Atlantis DHD interface, the people have been using laptops.

    Finally, while Atlantis has had 7 years of experience to draw from they are still going in a different direction. If they were off fighting the Goa'uld then I'd tend to agree with you. As it stands, though, really aren't drawing too much on SG-1 beyond having 2 minor characters in SG-1 as stars, having a Stargate, and including the Ancients. It was only in Seasons 6 and 7 that the Ancients became a central focus to the show.

  19. #59
    Data ShadowMaat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpyguy
    Now the questions, which should have received more attention are this:
    1. When the wraith do reach Hoff and find not only can't they feed, but they die as well, what will they do?
    2. What kind of offensive weapons do the Wraith have? Would they decimate the surface of the planet with nuclear weapons for instance?
    My guess is, they attack from space. Either from a planet-killer weapon, generic bombs/energy weapons or possibly that plague that wiped out the Ancients.




    3. Do the Wraith travel the Pegagsus galaxy by Stargate or do they have instellar drive abilities, or do they sleep for years and years as they travel at light speed from one star system to another.
    Well, the ship we saw in Rising was definitely too big to fit through a stargate, so they must have interstellar drives of some type or other. Or bigger gates.





    Finally, shouldn't there be a computer on Atlantis that could scan this Wraith repelent serum and modify it so that it works 100%? This wasn't even addressed. They are on an Ancient city-state/spaceship, right? : )
    Computers/simulations can't predict EVERYTHING. If they could, they would have known about the 50% mortality rate before the drug was ever injected. There've probably been dozens of instances where simulations failed to take the full measure of something. Look at 48 Hours. Feedback raced through the cables and caused the DHD to explode and a surge electrocuted Carter. "That never happened in the simulations," Daniel said. Avatar, without getting too spoilery, also had some unexpected "side effects".

    Besides, computers able to predict everything or fix every little problem would be boring. Let them suffer and learn from their mistakes and strive to try harder the NEXT time...




    The writing needs to be tightened up, to0 many plot holes. This just shouldn't be happening on a show that has 7 years of experience to draw from.
    New show, new rules. Cut 'em some slack. It's only the first handful of eps and they can't solve everything COMPLETELY and happily every single week, there have to be gray areas and unanswered questions to which the team/show can return at a later point. Just because the creative team is good for ONE show doesn't mean the same team will be good for ALL shows or that they'll all start off perfectly perfect in every way.

    SG-1 had its share of rough patches in the first season (and throughout the show, really), it's only natural that SGA would run into hiccups as well. The question is, what will TPTB do about it?? Ignore it and cross their fingers? Or work to rectify it at a later date? Stay tuned to find out...

  20. #60
    Lieutenant Colonel Major Fischer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Poisoning the Well (107)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowMaat
    Computers/simulations can't predict EVERYTHING. If they could, they would have known about the 50% mortality rate before the drug was ever injected. There've probably been dozens of instances where simulations failed to take the full measure of something. Look at 48 Hours. Feedback raced through the cables and caused the DHD to explode and a surge electrocuted Carter. "That never happened in the simulations," Daniel said. Avatar, without getting too spoilery, also had some unexpected "side effects".
    In fact, computers often cause more problems than they help. There is a story that i heard on NPR--so I'm hoping it's not urban legend--that the makers of the Lord of the Rings movies had insisted that each little guy in the massive battle simulations "be fighting for himself" and "be realistic as possible." So the programers programed each little guy to fight for his own survival, and ran the sims... and the armies kept running away. Enmass. They had to alter the program to actually get them to fight.

    More over, medical research isn't nearly as fast as that. The Atlantis team was able to speed up the Hoffin's research because they looked to be somewhere about the 1940s in technology level, but we dont' get instant answers today. My father is a biophysicist and he's been working on AIDS drugs since 1984 for one of the top drug companies in the world. He told me a story once that they had spent millions of dollars, and years of research, ran simulations and lab work on this one drug. Everything said it should be a miracle....

    ... when they went to do human trials it worked on one person, for two weeks. And than it stopped. Total bust. He was telling me the story several years--maybe as much as a decade--after the fact, because it was highly confidential when it first happened, but he wanted me to understand why AIDS drugs were so hard to develope. I think the lesson I took away was that basic research, even the most promising, can crash and burn when you move to the next level.
    Last edited by Major Fischer; August 21st, 2004 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Typo



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