The Backwards Evolution of the Ancient Language

[Syera]

Whilst pondering upon the speech of the Ancients, I noticed a few things that were odd.

Allegedly, Latin is a derivative of Ancient. Id est, it came afterward.

Now, some of the Ancient we've heard sounds very contradictory to this established 'fact.' For example, the Ancient word for 'ability' is apparantly 'filatus.' The Latin word is 'faculatus.'

The Latin word is more complex, suggesting that it's the older word. 'Filatus' sounds eroded.

And let's take a look at 'quindosum.' (Not sure about that spelling.) I'm guessing the writers took it from the Latin words 'quint' and 'decima.' ('Five' and 'ten,' respectively.) It's possible that the word had simply eroded down to 'quindosum' on that particular planet over time, but Stargate seems terribly poor about factoring linguistic erosion and evolution. (Although with everyone in the Pegasus using the Stargate network fairly frequently, it's a lot more plausible for everyone to be able to understand each other.)

Any thoughts on this?

[FallenAngelII]

Whilst pondering upon the speech of the Ancients, I noticed a few things that were odd.

Allegedly, Latin is a derivative of Ancient. Id est, it came afterward.

Now, some of the Ancient we've heard sounds very contradictory to this established 'fact.' For example, the Ancient word for 'ability' is apparantly 'filatus.' The Latin word is 'faculatus.'

The Latin word is more complex, suggesting that it's the older word. 'Filatus' sounds eroded.

And let's take a look at 'quindosum.' (Not sure about that spelling.) I'm guessing the writers took it from the Latin words 'quint' and 'decima.' ('Five' and 'ten,' respectively.) It's possible that the word had simply eroded down to 'quindosum' on that particular planet over time, but Stargate seems terribly poor about factoring linguistic erosion and evolution. (Although with everyone in the Pegasus using the Stargate network fairly frequently, it's a lot more plausible for everyone to be able to understand each other.)

Any thoughts on this?

"Quinque" is five. Ten is "Decem". Where did you learn Latin, anyway? Why would the Quindosum be called "The Five-Ten"? Is it impossible for it to be a word later lost in Latin?

"Anima" (Heart) became "Coeur" in French. I don't remember what "Window" is in Latin but I remember it was nothing like the French nor the Spanish words for "Window".

Also, not all words become easier to understand and build up and less complicated with time. While you can say "He sat beside me" in 3 words in latin, it takes at least 7 words to say it in French.

[Syera]

"Quinque" is five. Ten is "Decem". Where did you learn Latin, anyway? Why would the Quindosum be called "The Five-Ten"? Is it impossible for it to be a word later lost in Latin?

To be honest... I didn't learn Latin. I absorbed snippits of it here and there.

As for 'quindosum' pertaining to fifteen, here's my logic:
-The word appears in an episode pertaining to The Brotherhood of the Fifteen.
-It sounds like the writers clumsily smushed together the words 'quint' and 'decima' and added a noun ending.
-'Fifteen' - sounds like 'five' and 'ten' smushed together to me.

"Anima" (Heart) became "Coeur" in French. I don't remember what "Window" is in Latin but I remember it was nothing like the French nor the Spanish words for "Window".

Languages like French and Spanish had many other influences besides Latin.

Also, not all words become easier to understand and build up and less complicated with time. While you can say "He sat beside me" in 3 words in latin, it takes at least 7 words to say it in French.

No, not all words do. However, it's more natural for a word to erode to a simpler form than have a bunch of consonants added in the middle. (Though vowels are added often enough.)

A word can become more complex if a language requires specific prefixes or suffixes for certain words and tacks them onto new/loan words. However, adding new consonant sounds to the middle of a word doesn't really make any sense.

Take a look at these lists and you can see how real loan words get eroded...
http://www.zompist.com/indiawords.html
http://www.zompist.com/arabic.html

[FallenAngelII]

"Fifteen" is "Quince" or something like that. It has nothing to do with the word "Ten"/"Decima".

[Syera]

In Latin or in the pseudo-Latino language of the Ancients?

[FallenAngelII]

In Latin or in the pseudo-Latino language of the Ancients?

Latin. I don't know any Ancient.

Edit: Apparentely I was wrong, but we never ever used the word "Fifteen" in my two years of Latin. "Quindecim" is Latin for "Fifteen". Which makes "Quindosum" = Fiffteen seem like a very valid theory.

But why would the Ancients name it the "Fifteen"? Why in the world would they do that?!

[Wraith Scientist]

In French:
5 = cinq (pronounced 'sank')
10 = dix (pronounced 'dis')
15 = quanze (pronounced 'cans')

But the Ancient number system was supposed to be base 8 wasn't it?
So 15 would be written 17?

BTW, Syera, have you ever tried creating your own language?

[FallenAngelII]

In French:
5 = cinq (pronounced 'sank')
10 = dix (pronounced 'dis')
15 = quanze (pronounced 'cans')

But the Ancient number system was supposed to be base 8 wasn't it?
So 15 would be written 17?

BTW, Syera, have you ever tried creating your own language?

Good point. They shouldn't even have a word for "ten" as in Decima. Unless Decima meant 8 + 2, which I highly doubt.

[Syera]

Latin. I don't know any Ancient.

Edit: Apparentely I was wrong, but we never ever used the word "Fifteen" in my two years of Latin. "Quindecim" is Latin for "Fifteen". Which makes "Quindosum" = Fiffteen seem like a very valid theory.

Ah, cool. So, there's no backwardity here - what a relief!

But why would the Ancients name it the "Fifteen"? Why in the world would they do that?!

Because it has something to do with the Brotherhood of the Fifteen, I'd expect.

But the Ancient number system was supposed to be base 8 wasn't it? So 15 would be written 17?

I noticed this as well. However, the Amazing Mensa Magic Square puzzle woudn't have worked out quite so well in the episode had they actually remembered that the Ancients used base-eight math.

BTW, Syera, have you ever tried creating your own language?

Why yes, yes I have. Two, actually. The grammatical systems are fairly well worked out, and they have enough words going around to construct a few phrases.

[Wraith Scientist]

Maybe the Ancients actually used base 10, but maybe some of their hyper-advanced mathermatics/physics required base 8, or was easier in base 8?

Or maybe the Ancients used base 8 at some point but then switched to base 10 for some reason?

Or maybe the Ancients used base 8, but the humans who they taught their language to used base 10?

[Tankaras]

Most simple words with less complexity are root words that came before, while more complex versions of the words are used in later dialects such as latin. The ancient's language was probably added on to and changed by the Roman civilaztion over the centuries as we see latin as a more complex derivative of ancient.

[FallenAngelII]

But the Brotherhood of the Fifteen didn't exist back then IIRC. Didn't they say the Ancestors just came and gave it to them and then in time they created the brotherhood of the fifteen?

[Syera]

It's been my experience that words become more complex because the language that incorporates them requires that a certain prefix or suffix be added. Italian is one example of this.

For an example, let's say that we speak some fantasy langauge, and that our language uses a masculine suffix - we'll use '-at.'

We meet a new culture who has an animal we've never heard of. They call it a 'sador.'

The rules of our language dictate that nouns must have a masculine or feminine ending, so we call this animal the 'sadorat.'

Of course, another language might pick up our 'sadorat' at some point and decide for some reason to drop the 'sa-' part and simply call it a 'dorat,' but... that's a little beyond the point.

But to get beyond the point a little farther, they could drop the A and call it a "sdorat." But because the D is voiced, it's likely the S is going to get voiced to, so it'll be called a 'zdorat.' Now, some cultures really don't like doing that whole ts/dz thing, so further on it could become any number of things, depending on what sounds are native to the language. 'Thorat' wouldn't be too far a stretch. And likely some vowels would get changed, so it might be a 'thurat' at some point, and eventually a 'thurt.'

Ah, the noble sador has been reduced to a thurt.

[Tankaras]

You must be a linguistics major.

[Wraith Scientist]

Quindosum (Alteran/Ancient) -> Quindecim (Latin)
So just a minor vowel change. Looks very plausable

Ancient Language - From StargateWiki
^ Some of the ancient language

The Ancient script is interesting. How could such a writing system have come about? Usually writing systems from from scratches on rock and the like (but Arabic developed on papyrus from the very begining and so is very cursive)

No chance of a sample few words from your languages is there Syera